Nailhead 364 engine rebuild.

[P6tu]

Hello,

 

I was thinking that maybe I'll get more attention in this forum.

 

I am currently rebuilding my Buick Super 1958 6,0L 364CID engine and have encountered some missing pieces.Maybe there is someone,who could tell,if those are "must be" parts or I can assamble the engine without those pieces.

 

To explane my questions I have made some pictures of my 364 engine and one old 401 nailhead.

 

I have one plate missing (shown in the original chassis  manual for 58' with red):

 

First,the differences between 364 and 401.

The 364 (with the threaded holes for attaching the missing piece and without the big round plate at the end of the crank):

 

The 401 (without the holes for that missing plate and with big round plate at the end of the crank):

 

Now the picture of the timing cover for my 364 (the bearing is different from the 401 - otherwise the same):

 

1.Do I need the missing piece that is marked with red in the manual?

2.Do I need the round plate that is on the 401 - it looks like it should keep the oil going to the crank end,to the sealing?

3.I also had this screw inside that cover (screw that is on the white paper) - I am unable to find a location to it and it was not fixed to anything when I took it apart.Has anyone got any idea,where it should go (PS! it isn't the screw to hold the plate)?

 

With best regards,

Roland

[61polara]

The red plate may be a jig used in factory assembly only. It is blocking rotation of the cam, so the engine could not run with this in place. No idea on the bolt, but it would hold something as thick as the collar on the bolt to something else.

[Bhigdog]

The round plate is an oil slinger to minimize oil flowing against the front seal. The red part is a drip plate designed to drip oil onto the crank sprocket and chain. It's official name is "trough, timing chain oil feed". In your pix it looks like the drip plate has teeth. It does not. The "teeth" are light reflected by the clean machined boss and shadows of the top sprocket. The drip plate is easily made  from sheet metal with the bottom curled into a trough. Use lock washers under the bolts. You should use both the slinger and drip plate. it might not be a big deal if you didn't but I sure would..................Bob

Edited August 9, 2015 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[P6tu]

And I was too quick...I have already assamble the front of the engine and started to colour it...Those are the purposes,that I assumed that those things would have...Now the question is,how important they are...

 

Do you happen to know,why the 401 does not have that drip plate?

 

With the best regards,

Roland

The round plate is an oil slinger to minimize oil flowing against the front seal. The red part is a drip plate designed to drip oil onto the crank sprocket and chain. It's official name is "trough, timing chain oil feed". In your pix it looks like the drip plate has teeth. It does not. The "teeth" are light reflected by the clean machined boss and shadows of the top sprocket. The drip plate is easily made  from sheet metal with the bottom curled into a trough. Use lock washers under the bolts. You should use both the slinger and drip plate. it might not be a big deal if you didn't but I sure would..................Bob

Edited August 9, 2015 by P6tu (see edit history)

[P6tu]

Hi,

 

It is not a jig unfortunatelly.

 

The bolt is a bit strange.It has threads only on the thicker part near the head.The tip does not have any thread and is like a solid cylinder - it kind of looks like some kind of regulation bolt,but I have no clue,where to put it and it was not fixed to anything when the engine was disassambled...

 

With best regards,

Roland

The red plate may be a jig used in factory assembly only. It is blocking rotation of the cam, so the engine could not run with this in place. No idea on the bolt, but it would hold something as thick as the collar on the bolt to something else.

[Bhigdog]

As to how important they are to the health and longevity of your engine my answer would be: "the engineers who designed and tested the 1958 engine thought they were important enough to justify the expense and time to require them". You must be the judge of the wisdom in omitting them from YOUR engine...........Bob

Edited August 9, 2015 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[P6tu]

Thank you Bob for your answers.

 

Do you have any specifics or an example,what the oil drip plate should be or would it be enaugh,if I make something that would "direct" the oil to the bottom gear?

 

Would you have any idea,why the plate was not used in 401 nailhead,even tough the engine build is the same?I'm just curious...

 

With the best regards,

Roland

As to how important they are to the health and longevity of your engine my answer would be: "the engineers who designed and tested the 1958 engine thought they were important enough to justify the expense and time to require them". You must be the judge of the wisdom in omitting them from YOUR engine...........Bob

[Bhigdog]

I don't know why it was not used on the 401, Roland. Perhaps there is an alternate method to insure the timing chain/sprockets get adequate oil, or perhaps Buick just decided it wasn't needed. Without knowing for sure it would be most prudent to install one. It is simply a piece of sheet metal with two bolt holes with the bottom curled into a trough that slopes at an angle towards and above the lower sprocket. There is nothing precision about it. Let the picture be your guide. It's not a very good pix but try to envision what I described and the pix will make sense......................Bob

[avgwarhawk]

Personally I don't see a purpose for the oil feed to the crank gear.  Is there something feeding oil to this item other than the dripping oil from the camshaft gear?  How does the oil get to the camshaft gear?   It appears to me it is carried up by the timing chain that gets oiled as it rounds the crankshaft gear.  This area shares a portion of the oil pan allowing oil to be picked up by the crankshaft gear.    I can say that blocks in later years did not have this oil feeder.  By and large the timing chain cover remained the same and the large ring on the lower crankshaft slings oil away from the front seal.     

[Bhigdog]

Personally I don't see a purpose for the oil feed to the crank gear.  Is there something feeding oil to this item other than the dripping oil from the camshaft gear?  How does the oil get to the camshaft gear?   It appears to me it is carried up by the timing chain that gets oiled as it rounds the crankshaft gear.  This area shares a portion of the oil pan allowing oil to be picked up by the crankshaft gear.    I can say that blocks in later years did not have this oil feeder.  By and large the timing chain cover remained the same and the large ring on the lower crankshaft slings oil away from the front seal.     

 

The oil pump provides oil under pressure to the main galley. Oil from the main galley provides pressurized oil to the front cam bearing. The front cam bearing thrust plate has a notch which drains escaping cam bearing oil to the oil trough which drips that oil onto the lower sprocket and timing chain providing positive lubrication. I don't know if later blocks provided positive lube to the chain or how but in 1958 that's how it was done. Maybe a 401 savvy guy can enlighten us.............Bob

Edited August 10, 2015 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[avgwarhawk]

I do see a hole behind the cam gear in the picture showing the block with the drilled/tapped holes to secure the feeder assembly. Just above the two drilled and tapped holes.   I suspect this dropped oil into the feeder and lubricated the crank gear or more specifically the chain?    It does appear that this device was not required in later designs. 

Edited August 11, 2015 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

I do see a hole behind the cam gear in the picture showing the block with the drilled/tapped holes to secure the feeder assembly. Just above the two drilled and tapped holes.   I suspect this dropped oil into the feeder and lubricated the crank gear or more specifically the chain?    It does appear that this device was not required in later designs. 

 

The hole you see peeking out behind the cam sprocket is the plugged end of the main oil galley. If you look close you can make out the edge of the cup type plug. The notched/grooved cam thrust plate that supplies drip oil to the chain/sprocket is hidden behind the cam sprocket. You can get a better look at the hole, along with the two plugged lifter galleys, in the first pix from the shop manual.........Bob

Edited August 11, 2015 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[avgwarhawk]

Ok, got it.  Perhaps the oil slinger(as seen on the 401) replaced this feeder that is shown on the 364?    This slinger designed used from there on out to later motors.  The 1973 455 I replaced the timing chain had the slinger on the crank.   Whatever the case, I agree that a oil feeder should be fashioned and secured to the block.    

[Mark Simmons]

while I agree with all that is said about this part to this point I have a couple of questions. If this is the first time this 364 has been apart where is this factory installed part ? How many miles have been put on this 364 with the mysterious bolt/screw rattling around in the timing chain's area? I've had loose things in that area of engines before and seen what can happen. Roland you didn't mention any damage to the old chain or sprokets. Was this loose bolt/screw in the oil pan or actually in the timing case area of this motor?  I have no clue as to what it might be or where it goes accept to say loose things inside running engines are time bombs. 

[buick5563]

Quick glance at a 63 401 in my shop shows the crank "shield", but no oiler.

Sideways, as usual.

#%£&$@

[P6tu]

Hello everyone,

 

I've been busy for the few days...Anyway,I did a simple bent oil dripping plate to forward the oil to the chain.Regarding the round plate at the end of the crank,I did not place that.Thing is that originally the the timing case has a different bearing at the end of the crank - I used a ... (I do not know the correct term) ... bearing,that is meant to hold back oil (something similar used in nowadays cars between the flywheel and engine crank). 

 

Regarding the loose piece...I have no idea,but I have not driven much with the engine.Anyway,I have a new chain,new gears,freshly redone (third time) block and crankshaft,new camshaft,new pistons,reworked connection rods,redone heads,new...Let us say,that it is easier for me to tell you,that only old things in that engine currently are the block,heads,crankshaft,con. rods - those have been redone.Everything else is new.

 

Currently the engine is assambled already and I should get it mounted on the car tomorrow (after about 10h from this post - time zone difference ).

 

So from my point of view this topic can be closed and thank you everyone for your help.If there are people,who would like to discuss,why the dripping plate was not used in later nailheads - go ahead =).What I can tell you more,is that the 401 has exactly the same look from the front of the block.Only the big gear is a bit different (lighter),but otherwise everything is the same,so I do not see,how the chain should be lubricated...Only from the oil at the bottom of the engine...PS! You can even see on the 401,that the oil has just ran down straight from the block.There is an extra amount of old burnt oil in the middle of the block that has dripped from behind the upper large camshaft gear.

 

With the best regards,

Roland

while I agree with all that is said about this part to this point I have a couple of questions. If this is the first time this 364 has been apart where is this factory installed part ? How many miles have been put on this 364 with the mysterious bolt/screw rattling around in the timing chain's area? I've had loose things in that area of engines before and seen what can happen. Roland you didn't mention any damage to the old chain or sprokets. Was this loose bolt/screw in the oil pan or actually in the timing case area of this motor?  I have no clue as to what it might be or where it goes accept to say loose things inside running engines are time bombs. 

[P6tu]

Hi,

 

Looks exactly the same and again,the oil has dripped down straight on the block and nothing has been "guided" with some dripping plate to the crankshaft gear...The mystery remains,why it was/wasn't used on the nailheads...

 

Regarding the crankshaft shield,then it was used on all engines.For some mysterious reason this shield has been lost at some point in my long history of this engine rebuild at various different workshops...

 

Regards,

Roland

Quick glance at a 63 401 in my shop shows the crank "shield", but no oiler.
Sideways, as usual.
#%£&$@

Edited August 11, 2015 by P6tu (see edit history)

[NTX5467]

In reading this thread, I saw the word "dripping" used.  In a running engine, the only "drips" will be on the outside of the motor.  What's happening internally is "spinning", "slinging", and other windage-related activities.  It's a dynamic environment in there when everything's moving as designed.

 

In the design of things mechanical, there can be many orientations of how to do things and what's necessary "in there".  The "drip plate" might have  been one of those things.  Initially deemed important but later found to not be that beneficial, although the mounting holes were still drilled and tapped in the block.  Plus, if the accounting department wanted a few more $$$ out of the vehicle production cost, such "non-essential" things could have been deleted as a result.

 

To me, the slinger/deflector on the nose of the crankshaft would be more important as it would deflect any oil windage away from that seal, allowing it to work better at what it's supposed to be doing.  Kind of like the tech that told me that the slingers on either side of the center carrier bearing on our Chevy pickup weren't needed and usually got bent up out in the fields, damaging the bearing's rubber cushion in the process.  So, that tech removed them, claiming the bearing was "sealed" anyway.

 

One year later, that bearing was making noise.  When we popped the plastic shields out of it, the bearing was filled with sand particles.  So much for a "sealed" bearing!  We ordered a new set of slingers, put them in with the new bearing, and that was the LAST time we had any issues of that nature.  Be that as it may . . .

 

Without the slinger, the seal will work well for a while (as in probably about 30k miles or more.  Then, when it gets some wear on it and the nose of the crank, oil seeps will begin as the oil windage is directly against the inner surfaces of the seal.  Otherwise, with the slinger in place, such wear's notice would most probably come at more like 75k+ miles.  And it could well be that those distances are much larger than what you might intend to drive the car.

 

NTX5467

[P6tu]

Hello NTX,

 

I must agree with you,that when you use the original bearings (with a grease line/fat string - not sure how it is called) one must use the slinger.I replaced the original bearing with something that functions a bit differently and is by design meant to hold back oil with all the "dirt" inside the engine.The bearing is like a seal - it has a "spring" inside it,that is working both ways and the more momentum it has,the more it pressures itself against the crank and the outer surface (the timing plate) and at the same time,the seal works as a bearing...

 

Dangnabit how difficult it is to describe something in a foreign language .

 

The main thing is,that whoever is reading this forum and is also rebuilding the engine,then the oilslinger at the end of the crankshaft is required.Also it is very easy to "make" the so called dripping plate underneath the camshaft gear and if it was there originally - use it now too.

 

Just the question remains,that why this dripping plate was used...And why was it removed in newer engines...

Sure,mostly everything is moved by inhertia inside the engine,including the oil,but it also will flow.For example,I'm just thinking that when you have made a long drive and then stop and turn off the engine,then maybe the dripping plate was mostly utilized in a stalled engine to forward extra oil to the crankshaft gear and chain?It would make sense and sure,when the engine is working,then most of the oil would be slung on the outer sides of timing case so it would have minimal effect when the engine is running...Just a tought.

 

With regards,

Roland

In reading this thread, I saw the word "dripping" used.  In a running engine, the only "drips" will be on the outside of the motor.  What's happening internally is "spinning", "slinging", and other windage-related activities.  It's a dynamic environment in there when everything's moving as designed.

 

In the design of things mechanical, there can be many orientations of how to do things and what's necessary "in there".  The "drip plate" might have  been one of those things.  Initially deemed important but later found to not be that beneficial, although the mounting holes were still drilled and tapped in the block.  Plus, if the accounting department wanted a few more $$$ out of the vehicle production cost, such "non-essential" things could have been deleted as a result.

 

To me, the slinger/deflector on the nose of the crankshaft would be more important as it would deflect any oil windage away from that seal, allowing it to work better at what it's supposed to be doing.  Kind of like the tech that told me that the slingers on either side of the center carrier bearing on our Chevy pickup weren't needed and usually got bent up out in the fields, damaging the bearing's rubber cushion in the process.  So, that tech removed them, claiming the bearing was "sealed" anyway.

 

One year later, that bearing was making noise.  When we popped the plastic shields out of it, the bearing was filled with sand particles.  So much for a "sealed" bearing!  We ordered a new set of slingers, put them in with the new bearing, and that was the LAST time we had any issues of that nature.  Be that as it may . . .

 

Without the slinger, the seal will work well for a while (as in probably about 30k miles or more.  Then, when it gets some wear on it and the nose of the crank, oil seeps will begin as the oil windage is directly against the inner surfaces of the seal.  Otherwise, with the slinger in place, such wear's notice would most probably come at more like 75k+ miles.  And it could well be that those distances are much larger than what you might intend to drive the car.

 

NTX5467

[buick5563]

Your English is fine, Roland.

The picture I showed of the 63 didn't even have the holes. I agree that the old rope seal would benefit MORE from the "shield" than the modern neoprene seal.

[avgwarhawk]

 

Initially deemed important but later found to not be that beneficial, although the mounting holes were still drilled and tapped in the block.

 

 

 

More than likely a surplus of blocks that had already been drilled.  Drip feeder not needed nor installed.  Eventually new tooling of blocks as the surplus of drilled blocks was exhausted.  The newly tooled blocks put into production.