Rebuild water pump?

[Rogillio]

It seems the bushing is sticking out more in the "new" photo than before.......it's hard to tell with the grease over it in the first photo.

I'm grasping at straws too....... 

 

 

Oh I know exactly what you mean.  I did not remove the brass inserts.  They seemed to be in good shape.  But that's not to say I didn't move that one taking the old shaft off and putting the new one back on.  I had to beat the hell out of the shafts.  I will take a look at it tonight and, much as I hate to, might pull it back off and beat on it some more and see if I can move that bushing some.

[R.White]

I had an easier time of it when I did mine.  The shaft pulled straight out no problem but the bushes were worn.  The rebuilt pump could still leak if there is movement and you may find that the old shaft has scoured the soft brass surface on it's way out.  I pulled my bushes out of the housings rather than drifting them and did the same putting the new bushes back.  The bushings should come out easily using a vice or press but do support the housings or they could break.  It's important to line up the oil gallery in the new bushing with the hole in the housing when you reassemble. 

 

Ray.

Edited August 13, 2015 by R.White (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

Oh I know exactly what you mean.  I did not remove the brass inserts.  They seemed to be in good shape.  But that's not to say I didn't move that one taking the old shaft off and putting the new one back on.  I had to beat the hell out of the shafts.  I will take a look at it tonight and, much as I hate to, might pull it back off and beat on it some more and see if I can move that bushing some.

 

In my limited experience, you would be better to desist from beating the hell out of anything. You are probably belling the ends of things - shaft, bushes - making it worse. If you have to do that, something is wrong? You are far better to use a pressing action. I find a system using something threaded (fine thread) is best in the absence of a press. With a hydraulic press you can put a lot of force on things but have no idea how much. With a thread you have direct feedback: it gets harder to "tighten".

 

For bushes, I use a long bolt, sleeves and washers as necessary. For a shaft, two long bolts with a plate or something to push on one end and a plate with a collar to push on the housing I am trying to push it out of. I bought a bearing puller set for this purpose - only 50NZD. Remember to lubricate the threads so they don't gall and seize up. Get rid of the hammer.

 

I agree with the earlier correspondent about that bush being out a little and moving the worm drive for the distributor along a bit. That is probably enough to prevent things fitting together.

[Rogillio]

Ray....thanks! I knew there had to be something more than friction to keep that cam assembly from turning. When you questioned it too I decided to take a closer look. You can't see the pin unless you take the sprins off! When I did that the pin was visible. I looked again at the shaft and sure enough there was the rest of the pin. I punched out the pin pieces and will get one tomorrow.

I also put the distributor in the hole without the shaft and it would not go in. There is a ring around the base....presumably like an oil ring to keep water out? I pushed the ring to align with the hole and she dropped in. I put the shaft in the distributer and put the cam assy on and she slid in like a glove! I was so excited I decided to take the night off and just savor the moment!

I still need to get the pin, put the springs back on, replace the two dist cap clips I broke taking thins apart (got used ones from Myers for only $44. Ouch!)....but the only tricky part will be dropping in the dirstibuter at the right angle so timing is right.

[cahartley]

YAY

I was beginning to think I had lost it too........    ....... LOL

[Rogillio]

If I put the pin in, then I can't put the shaft in the distributor housing. And I can't put the shaft in first as then there is no access for getting the pin in.....even if I drill a hole in the dude of the distributor housing because the cam weights spring assy is in the way.

So it has to be mated first and come in from the top.....but I can't get the gear off the bottom. I need to find a machine shop with a press of some sort to get the pin out of that bottom gear. It has to come off for reassembly but I can't get the pin out with a hammer and punch.

[cahartley]

Would that pin happed to be a taper pin?

If it is......yeah......they can get REAL stubborn.......  .......especially if you start out trying to drive it from the wrong side....... 

[Rogillio]

Would that pin happed to be a taper pin?

If it is......yeah......they can get REAL stubborn.......  .......especially if you start out trying to drive it from the wrong side....... 

OMG. So I have a 50/50 chance?

I'm gonna find a machine shop....or maybe drill it out. IDK yet

[Rogillio]

See the dilemma ?

[cahartley]

I thought it was the PUMP shaft you got....... 

So you need to get the lower one out in order to get the upper one IN?

IF you're lucky........and that hasn't exactly been the case lately........it COULD be a straight pin that has been peened over.

Don't you any tiny drill bits?

It doesn't take much of a hole to make them lose their hold.

Edited August 15, 2015 by cahartley (see edit history)

[Rogillio]

I thought it was the PUMP shaft you got....... 

So you need to get the lower one out in order to get the upper one IN?

IF you're lucky........and that hasn't exactly been the case lately........it COULD be a straight pin that has been peened over.

Don't you any tiny drill bits?

It doesn't take much of a hole to make them lose their hold.

Yes, I replaced the water pump shaft....the water pump is done.....only thing left to do is replace the distributor. But having found the upper pin sheered off I need to fix it. I don't know when it was sheered. It may have been sheered off for years but just didn't matter.....or maybe that is why the car was parked for 10 years?

I will try as you suggest with a small drill bit. BTW I used a Dremmel tool to grind the peen off one side but still could not move the pin. If it is tapered then there is 50% chance I ground off the wrong side.

Funny that you said I've not been lucky lately....I was thinking just the opposite. :-). At any rate, I'm having fun and learning. I told my wife that having done this I feel confident enough to rebuild the water pump on my other 26 DB.

[Rogillio]

Good tip!

[R.White]

I suggest this with some trepidation because In know how much unexpected expenses can affect  a budget but ideally you would replace the distributor shaft and bearings.  The wear that is visible from the photos would show up in uneven running because your dwell angle will move around all over the place. 

 

Ray.

[Rogillio]

Ooops. Darn

Not enough clearance to put on now due to those engine floor panel things!

I am not taking it apart! I will get a brass bolt and plug it.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Rogillio (see edit history)

[Rogillio]

Took the valve apart and got it on the pump. It was very tedious putting the valve back together while on the pump....had to have my wife's help as my big paws wouldn't fit.

[cahartley]

I will try as you suggest with a small drill bit. BTW I used a Dremmel tool to grind the peen off one side but still could not move the pin. If it is tapered then there is 50% chance I ground off the wrong side.

Funny that you said I've not been lucky lately....I was thinking just the opposite. :-). At any rate, I'm having fun and learning. I told my wife that having done this I feel confident enough to rebuild the water pump on my other 26 DB.

 

Was it a taper pin or only a riveted over straight pin?

It appears your luck is BACK....... 

Congrats on not throwing in the towel and gittin' 'er DUN........there's no glory in having someone else do it....... 

[Rogillio]

I suggest this with some trepidation because In know how much unexpected expenses can affect  a budget but ideally you would replace the distributor shaft and bearings.  The wear that is visible from the photos would show up in uneven running because your dwell angle will move around all over the place. 

 

Ray.

There are no bearing on the distributor shaft that I know of. There is some play in the distributor shaft but that is be design...best I can tell. If I can't get it running well die to ignition/timing I will probably have to replace the distributor shaft. Now that I know how it all works and fits together I could pull it in 30 minutes.

Any idea where I can get replacement springs for the centrifugal advance? I read in the manual they can get weak and effect performance.

[Rogillio]

Was it a taper pin or only a riveted over straight pin?

It appears your luck is BACK....... 

Congrats on not throwing in the towel and gittin' 'er DUN........there's no glory in having someone else do it....... 

It was tapered as beat I could tell. I used a roll pin to put back in so it accounted for the taper.

It had alignment dots on the bottom of the shaft.....presumably to help align the gear and shaft so the pin holes line up.

[Rogillio]

Oh no!

Decided to finish setting the timing.....my 2 part epoxy repair on the timing advance ring failed. Took it off, sanded clean and remade the fix....this time with JB weld.

Put in radiator fluid and it leaks everywhere! I had the radiator cleaned and holes fixed at radiator shop but it leak bad all at round the bottom inlet neck. So that's a minor PITB rework...take back to shop and tell them I didn't get my $100's worth.

But the worst part is, it leaked out of the grease fitting! WTH? How does that happen. No around the fitting but thru the grease cup. I tightened it as much as possible....tightened the jam nut on the pump as much as possible....still drips out the grease cup.

Oh well....it's a project.

[cahartley]

It's not unusual to find a little water in a grease cup when refilling them but leaking fluid through a zerk is another story.

New fittings will undoubtedly cure the leaking.

I have the old style pin type Alemite fittings on mine.

 

[Rogillio]

I've got the grease cup leak to slow to a slow drip....drip every 2 seconds os so. Would Teflon tape on the treads help?

[Rogillio]

Oh no!

Decided to finish setting the timing.....my 2 part epoxy repair on the timing advance ring failed. Took it off, sanded clean and remade the fix....this time with JB weld.

Put in radiator fluid and it leaks everywhere! I had the radiator cleaned and holes fixed at radiator shop but it leak bad all at round the bottom inlet neck. So that's a minor PITB rework...take back to shop and tell them I didn't get my $100's worth.

But the worst part is, it leaked out of the grease cup! WTH? How does that happen. No around the threads but thru the grease cup. I tightened it as much as possible....tightened the jam nut on the pump as much as possible....still drips out the grease cup.

Oh well....it's a project.

Edited for clarification

Edited August 18, 2015 by Rogillio (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

About the roll pin... I was told to NOT use a roll pin on the impeller because there is not much metal in the pin, so it won't take long to corrode away from the inside. It is in a bronze impeller and a steel shaft and is likely the highest on the galvanic series of all those metals. Better to use a solid pin. The roll pin should be OK out of the water. Lesson here: keep up the anti-corrosion additive in your coolant!

 

The grease cup: I had a similar problem - water coming from the oil hole. The problem was that it had a brass or bronze bush with a hole in it into the oil reservoir, so water just came straight out. It should have a sintered bronze bush with no hole. I am not sure about your bush, but there should be no direct connection between the water and the grease cup except through the bush. Mine actually had a wee O-ring retro-fitted in the end of the bush to keep the water out, but it was munted and the shaft corroded, so a new O-ring would not seal. I fitted a new Oilite bush and made a new shaft. The bushes are getting hard to get; lots of sizes are listed but they don't stock them all for one-off buyers. I had to bore out and turn down a suitable bush.

[Rogillio]

About the roll pin... I was told to NOT use a roll pin on the impeller because there is not much metal in the pin, so it won't take long to corrode away from the inside. It is in a bronze impeller and a steel shaft and is likely the highest on the galvanic series of all those metals. Better to use a solid pin. The roll pin should be OK out of the water. Lesson here: keep up the anti-corrosion additive in your coolant!

 

The grease cup: I had a similar problem - water coming from the oil hole. The problem was that it had a brass or bronze bush with a hole in it into the oil reservoir, so water just came straight out. It should have a sintered bronze bush with no hole. I am not sure about your bush, but there should be no direct connection between the water and the grease cup except through the bush. Mine actually had a wee O-ring retro-fitted in the end of the bush to keep the water out, but it was munted and the shaft corroded, so a new O-ring would not seal. I fitted a new Oilite bush and made a new shaft. The bushes are getting hard to get; lots of sizes are listed but they don't stock them all for one-off buyers. I had to bore out and turn down a suitable bush.

Great info! I had not thought about corrosion since the inside of the pin is hollow. On the other hand....the impeller really has very little place to go alone the scissors of the shaft. It is keyed to keep it from rotating and pinned to keep it axial position. Oh well, hopefully it will last a few years.

I don't know where you are talking about for the bush? Bushing? I can't picture in my mind how/where the grease fitting contacts the water. I'm thinking about putting some more packing under the jam nut and running it up tight.

I put the grease cup so tight I rounded off the 1/2 shaft that the hex wrench fits. So I ordered another one.

[Spinneyhill]

The grease cup must be there to lubricate something, such as a bronze bush or bearing, whatever the shaft runs inside.

 

Is the grease cup fitted at the large hole at the down arrow? What is at the wee hole at the up arrow? There will be a bush at both these locations that will need lubricating. You can see the brass or bronze flange to the right of the up arrow - it is a flanged bush. I think you might have pushed the bush at the down arrow into the pump body at one stage (to the right)?

 

If you drove the shaft out, breaking off the pin(s), you could have scored the bushes with a deep groove, opening up a way for grease to escape and not lubricate anything and water to escape in the opposite direction into the grease cup.

 

Packing the gland ("jam nut") won't help water at the grease fitting. It is a separate independent route of escape for the water along the shaft, not through the bush as is needed to come out of the lubrication fitting.

 

What end float do you have in the shaft? There should be about 0.002 to 0.003" clearance under the impeller blades on the pump body and end float of about the same, but not so that the impeller blades hit the pump body. Shaft sideways movement inside the bush should be about 0.002", just enought to allow some lubrication in. Is there a thrust washer between the impeller and the pump body? (not just any old washer, a properly machined, close fitting to shaft, parallel both sides, washer to govern end float as well as stop the impeller, which is soft, from wearing out itself and the end of the pump body. The faces of the impeller and the pump body should be similarly flat.)

[Rogillio]

The grease cup must be there to lubricate something, such as a bronze bush or bearing, whatever the shaft runs inside.

 

Is the grease cup fitted at the large hole at the down arrow? What is at the wee hole at the up arrow? There will be a bush at both these locations that will need lubricating. You can see the brass or bronze flange to the right of the up arrow - it is a flanged bush. I think you might have pushed the bush at the down arrow into the pump body at one stage (to the right)?

 

If you drove the shaft out, breaking off the pin(s), you could have scored the bushes with a deep groove, opening up a way for grease to escape and not lubricate anything and water to escape in the opposite direction into the grease cup.

 

Packing the gland ("jam nut") won't help water at the grease fitting. It is a separate independent route of escape for the water along the shaft, not through the bush as is needed to come out of the lubrication fitting.

 

What end float do you have in the shaft? There should be about 0.002 to 0.003" clearance under the impeller blades on the pump body and end float of about the same, but not so that the impeller blades hit the pump body. Shaft sideways movement inside the bush should be about 0.002", just enought to allow some lubrication in. Is there a thrust washer between the impeller and the pump body? (not just any old washer, a properly machined, close fitting to shaft, parallel both sides, washer to govern end float as well as stop the impeller, which is soft, from wearing out itself and the end of the pump body. The faces of the impeller and the pump body should be similarly flat.)

OK, beginning to think I should have had this rebuilt instead of doing it myself!

The grease cup is at the left arrow. There is nothing at the other hole. I did not replace the brass inserts.....so maybe that is where the leakage is from. But I did not see any scoring....but as worn as everthing else is, I can see they would be worn too.

I did not measure any clearances before reassembly.

This is great information I will use when I rebuild my other water pump. Just one question for you....where the heck were you when I started this thread and needed to know this stuff!? :-)

Thanks man. I really appreciate any and all help! I would never have gotten as far as I have without you experts' help!

[Spinneyhill]

Sorry to say, I was in post #5...

 

Are you able to wiggle the shaft sideways or even move it longitudinally, in place? Don't score it with anything. Examine all your photos and so on to see if there is any way you can see the water could get to the grease hole.

 

I see there is a gland on the pump end of the flanged bush. That is probably to keep oil in. How is the distributor gear lubricated? That might mean you don't need to put oil in the "up arrow" hole.

 

When I started my pump, I would have just used a long piece of gland packing round and round. Then I read in an authoritative book that one should use lengths equal to one wrap around the shaft. Use the number required (3?) and stager the ends so they don't all line up. Tighten the gland nut just enough to seal.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[R.White]

Please also refer to my post No.42.  I think you will need to turn up some new bushes. You will also need to machine in a groove either side of the lube hole - the original is spiral but the machinist only put in a straight cut which should still work o.k. I like Spinnyhill's suggestion of oilite but mine are brass. I would also say that modern lip seals work well but for them to last a long time you want a chrome finish to your shaft but if you don't do that many miles I would think the polished shaft from Myers will be O.K.

Be careful not to over load the cast iron or you risk breaking the pump; the bushes should come out easily.

 

Ray.

Edited August 21, 2015 by R.White (see edit history)