Falls Engine: Dort, Apperson, Velie, Gardner and Moon

[sambarn]

I'm trying to learn a little about the Falls Engine Company. Supposedly they provided engines for Dort, Apperson, Velie, Gardner, Moon and the Birmingham made Premocar. The particular engine used in the Premocar is believed to be a 188 cid six between the years 1920 and 1923. It is listed as a 3 1/8 inch bore, 3 1/4 inch stroke OHV with Zenith carb, Stewart vacuum fuel system, Dyneto Starter and generator Borg and Beck 10 inch multiple disc clutch, Muncie three speed transmission and Timken Detroit rear end. I don't know how to calculate bore/Stroke to cid to check if these numbers relate to each other. I'm just beginning to dig at the Premocar and sure would appreciate any insight to the veracity of this tale and the existence of these engines. Did all the makes listed use the same engine? There are no known remaining Premocars or even parts and we're hoping that someone out there might be able to help fill out the empty spots in the record of the car. There is very limited technical data remaining. I've posted most of it above. The engine that is shown in the book appears to be a split casting (three cylinders per casting and the carb is on the right side (updraft) mounted at about the piston height and feeding the intake manifold over the gap between the castings to feed the left side intake manifold. Kinda Different. I hope to get a primary source copy of the pic from the library so I can post a pic. There's a Wikipedia site for Premocar that the author helped with if anyone is interested in the Premocar. Thank you for your help.

As an aside, Falls Engine Company had an eight cylinder engine that they tried to race at Indy but it wrecked in practice and then was disqualified due to displacement issues (??). In 1974 the treasurer of the company said that in 24 they had declared bankruptcy and that Buick had acquired the designs and one of the eight Cylinder motors. He believed it to be the prototype for the Buick Eight.

[1939_Buick]

The particular engine used in the Premocar is believed to be a 188 cid six between the years 1920 and 1923. It is listed as a 3 1/8 inch bore, 3 1/4 inch stroke OHV with Zenith carb, Stewart vacuum fuel system, Dyneto Starter and generator Borg and Beck 10 inch multiple disc clutch, Muncie three speed transmission and Timken Detroit rear end. I don't know how to calculate bore/Stroke to cid to check if these numbers relate to each other.

bore x bore x Pi x 0.25 x 6

In MS Excel = (3.125^2*PI()*0.25*3.25)*6 = 149.56 ci

If it was 4.125 (4 1/8 ) stroke it would be 189 ci

Edited April 22, 2014 by 1939_buick (see edit history)

[sambarn]

Hmmm. so the 188cid data doesn't match the bore/stroke data. Doesn't surprise me. But perhaps this can help someone identify or even better provide pics of these engines.

[Bud Tierney]

SAMBARN: Missed this thread when it first came on...

If this thread is still alive, in your research into Falls did you find anything on a 12 cyl??

I've a note that Automobile Trade Jnl vol 14, #1 (omitted page #---googlebooks) has a Falls ad for "...motors for pleasure and commercial cars..." listing 4, 6, 8 and 12 cyl engines, but apparently no pix/specs...

Have date noted as Jan 1916 or so, which sounds way too early for the 8, if it was supposed to be the 8 that was, reportedly, the predecessor of the Buick 8...

I only have 4s and 6s on my Falls list, made up from listings in the Falls engine sections of old engine parts catalogs, and therefore not complete as to the auto/truck/tractor engines ...

[8E45E]

I wonder if the Gray-Dorts assembled in Canada also used this engine.

Craig

[Ivan Saxton]

You may find that Grant Six was another user of Falls engine. There was one of these in the early 1960s stored under a row of pine trees about 40 miles from here. We tried to rescue it. Some years later another member of the Vintage Drivers Club was able to acquire it, but it had been "tidied-up" by someone dumping the body. If it still exists, let us hope that Bernie Jacobsen finds out about it to preserve as one of his special speedsters like the Dixie Flyer.

Premocar was listed also as one of the users of the "walking beam" Duesenberg engine from Rochester Motors, without any hard evidence that could confirm that.

[carbking]

According to the carburetor manufacturers Schebler, Stromberg, and Zenith; carburetors were sold to Apperson, Courier, Henney, Hensey, Parenti, Stephens, Saxon, Velie, and Washington for use on Falls engines.

As the carburetor manufacturer did not always post the make of engine, but only the make of vehicle; there are probably many more.

Jon.

[TerryB]

I have an auto parts supply company catalog from 1922 that shows the following auto manufacturers used Falls engines:

Colonial 1917, Elgin 1916-22, Grant 1917-20, Halladay 1918-19, Hollier 1917-18, Kelsey 1921-22, Malbohm 1917-22, Premocar 1921-22, Velle 1920-22 and Washington 1920-22. This book also says there are two Falls 6 Models, a new and old version. Only extra information is the old has a dimension of 1 7/8, nothing listed for the new.

Terry

[Bud Tierney]

JON

(1: many thxx for list---didn't have Saxon or Stephens on my list (in process)...

(2) was Hensey misprint for Henney, or Pennsy? (don't find Hensey in Std Cat or Mroz's Truck book)...Pennsy in Std Cat/my catalogs doesn't list Falls, but they weak reeds to lean on...

TERRY B + GENERAL---30 McCord gasket/38 Victor gasket catalogs only list

(3) Falls 6cyl T8000 31/8x41/4 1923-25

(4) Falls 6cyls C, I, J, K, L, M, N, R, all also 31/8x41/4 1917-22 (different gaskets from T8000)...both show 6cyl en bloc OHV, not the cast in two sets of three per Sambarns original post above...

There were engine changes in the T8000: cyl head gaskets for 1923-24 (apparently early 24), another for late 24 and 25...I haven't reconciled all my info, but one 6cyl apparently come with two different piston/ring/pin combinations; may've been an update...

(5) so far have engines B, C, D, E?, F, F1, F2, F3, FR, G, G2, H, I J, K, L, M, N, R, T, TT, T8000, V, V11000, X9000, 1T and 4H, which could be the H 4cyl...(mixed 4s, 6s, no 8)...

(6) so far makes Apperson, Burch Auto Sleigh, Colonial, Courier, Dort, Elgin, Farner, Fremont, Gardner, Gove (prototype), Grant, Halladay, Handley/Handley-Knight, Henney, Hollier, Kelsey, Maibohm car and 1/2ton, Michigan Buggy, Moon, Morris, Parenti, Premocar, Saxon, Scripps-Booth, Stephens, Templar, Velie, Washington...

(7) 1925 ring catalog lists Templar 1924 Falls 8cyl 31/8 bore; 1933 Perfect Circle rings lists Templar 1924 with 31/8 bore and 24 1/8 rings (3x8=24, but so is 4x6, altho none of Falls engines in ring catalogs shows four ring piston...fascinating

SAMBARN: at least one, and possibly two Premocar Falls engines are engines I have no gasket pictures for: the "H" and an unidentified engine; one could be your cast in pairs...

[Bud Tierney]

Sheesh!! picked up 32 King Prod catalog which I apparently hadn't indexed correctly and find engines G15, P, RI, S and SM, XE, in addition to above...time to go to bed...

[Bud Tierney]

Does anyone here have an email adds for David Beuhler, the Templar collector/expert/guru?? I have contacts for the museum that displays his collection, and his law firms, but no direct email...

I do have his mailing adds, so can use US Mail if nothing turns up ...

My old catalogs raise a question re' the Falls engine(s?) used or intended to be used in the 1924 (last years production of the Templar...

This's also posted as a new question in the General forum here, and the Antq Auto forum on smokstak.