1960 Buick -- problem starting when hot

[jonosso]

My 1960 Buick starts just fine when cold - even after sitting for a month or more. The problem I have is that after it has been driven and the engine is warmed-up or hot.

An example is yesterday when I started the car for the first time in probably a month. There was no problem. I drove it an hour to my parents' home and parked it. I took a few photos and decided I wanted to move it after no more than 5 minutes. I go to start it, and all I hear are clicking sounds (no engine turn at all). I waited about an hour after it had cooled down, and it started with no hesitation.

Any thoughts on this? Thanks.

Jonathan

[JohnD1956]

Clean connections at the battery first, and at the negative terminal where it attaches to the motor. Then see if you have a re-occurance. I might suggest treating the connections to a coating of oxyguard when they have been cleaned but before reconnection. Oxyguard is a grease for electrical connections which is supposed to slow down the oxidation of dissimilar metals. I got my small tube at the hardware store in the electrical aisle.

[RivNut]

After a while the windings in the starter get hot, expand, and won't let the armature spin inside the housing. The next time this happens try this and you'll know for sure. Take some cold water and pour it over the starter. If it starts, you know what it is. I've had to do this to a couple of units. It would only happen when the outside temperature was really up there; never when the weather was cool or after the car had sat for a while. If the water cools it off and you can start it, take the starter in to an automotive electrical shop and have it rewound to hi-torque specs.

Ed

[Marty Roth]

Check to see if there is a "HEAT SHIELD" between the Starter and the Exhaust System/Manifold. You can find one of these designed for Chevy small-block engines, and can even improve it, or make one yourself. Heat can cause the problem you describe. I had that with my 1956 Chevy Bel-air convertible with the "Power-Pak" option. Changing starters didn't help, but the heat shield solved the problem.

Also, disassemble the starter solenoid and thoroughly clean the inside of the two major contacts - and if they are noticeably corroded or burned, try turning each of them 180 degrees before reassembly, and clean the area where they make internal contact.

[jonosso]

John, John, and Marty: Thank you for the suggestions. I will have to try all of them and see it it corrects things.

[Marty Roth]

jonnyopa,

all of these are things which will ultimately make yours a better car in some way, but.....

try them - one at a time , the easiest first,

to know which one actually solved your problem, and then do all of tem if you wish.

[lrlforfun]

OK John: Here we go again with the internet diagnosis. First, you must isolate each problem. Is it electrical? If so which component and why did it fail? Is it in the engine? If so is it the cooling system, a head gasket problem or something else? Why did it fail?

I'm not a mechanic OR EVEN CLOSE and it ceases to amaze me how much unscientific info is out there. Sure the obvious stuff come to mind but it really isn't a scientific. Diagnose, each problem, verify diagnosis and then repair. Mitch.

[jonosso]

I will most definitely need to test things one-by-one.

(1) I know it is not a problem with the battery itself -- after sitting a month (and even longer), the car starts without requiring any assistance (i.e. jumper cables or charge).

(2) Once started, I have driven the car a number of times for distances of 40 to 60 miles with no problem whatsoever (even going at highway speeds).

(3) When I complete a drive that has had the car warmed up and driven with no problem is when the issue occurs. The issue happens once I turn off the car and try to start it again. It just "clicks". Once I let the car sit for a while and presumably let it cool off, the car starts with no problem at all.

[lrlforfun]

OK John: Have you tested the battery? First give it a 2 amp float charge. It usually takes a few days for that. To check the battery first put the load tester on it and burn off the surface charge. Most load testers have a rectifier that will heat up. Next, load test the battery and see what the voltage drain is. I believe it should drop a few volts but perhaps someone can be more exact. Also check the specific gravity of the acid. This should give you your answer. Never assume until all issues are isolated and checked properly. You might have a dead cell. Diagnose, Verify diagnosis and recheck and repair. Don't forget....why did the component fail? Mitch

[jonosso]

Mitch, I have never had the battery die on me. I am not proud to say that I let the Buick sit from December 2011 until April 2013 without ever starting it, but when I did crank it, the car started with no problem. I would think that any issues with the batter would have surfaced when attempting to start the car after 15 months of not a single crank and no battery charger on the battery. Am I over-simplifying the definition of a good vs. bad battery? Thoughts?

[JohnD1956]

Mitch has the right idea, in a perfect world. But it will probably lead to paralysis by analysis. I will dump my internet diagnosis for Ed's ( rivnut) suggestion above. After reading his thoughts I remembered I went through this exact thing with my 69 GS. Of course, in my case I simply replaced the solenoid and was good to go. Then again my car still has it's original heat shield as Marty suggested, and I did not want to remove and replace that thing twice.

One more suggestion if you do remove the starter. Watch carefully that you do not end up with the small wires on the starter crossing over and touching the battery cable. If you do the car may not turn off with the key. In that case you will need to choke the carb manually and flood the engine out to stall it.

[jonosso]

Thank you John. I may get into all of the suggestions this weekend.

[lrlforfun]

OK John: Checking each component and isolating the problem as well as trying to identify the cause of failure is the only to correctly repair anything. The difference between a mediocre tech and a good one is that the good one WILL check that battery even though it seems fine.....and after checking it properly it just might be perfectly acceptable! Never the less, there are procedures for isolating and checking each component and in our quite imperfect world this method seems to work. Vehicles are no different than a toaster, blender, television or any other mechanical gadget. The problem must be identified and diagnosed properly although many of the items I mentioned would be headed to landfill. Today's techs don't as a rule go through the proper procedures. Internet forums pose a major problem also because besides suggestions thrown out by mostly back yard guys (like me) most aren't scientific and get lots of people in trouble. I know for a fact that thousands of customers come back to the shop because it wasn't fixed correctly in the first place. Mitch

[jonosso]

Mitch, your points are very valid. I really do appreciate you recommending the thorough approach.

What can I say? I am swayed by a tinge of laziness and also instant gratification of a wishful easy solution. I wish I could say that I am a product of a young, new generation, but I am almost 50. No good excuses.

[Guest Doug Burton]

I once had a '76 Caprice Classic which I used to take the family on a vacation to Virginia Beach, Washington D.C. and Philadelphia. After a visit to Valley Forge, the car started up fine, but would only run for a minute or so before dying. I thought the problem was vapor lock, but even after sitting a couple of hours it did the same thing. Had it towed to a local shop where the problem was found to be the fuel pump. After it was replaced, the starter would barely turn over. I had basically worn it out earlier in the day with so many start attempts. I didn't really have the money to replace the starter, so we left it at the shop overnight and next morning they used a charger (full boost) to get it started. We drove it all the way back to Cincinnati, OH without shutting it off. We spent the night at my parents house and the next morning it started with no problems at all. Drove it back home to Indiana and it would not even turn over anymore. Lessons learned, take along enough cash for more than one emergency repair and starters can act very strange.

So on the surface I would tend to agree with the bad starter diagnosis, but as an experienced electronics technician, with many, many hours of troubleshooting under my belt, it never hurts to use a systematic approach to diagnose any problem.

[lrlforfun]

OK Jonathan: It's almost 8 months. What was the verdict? Mitch

[60FlatTop]

85 here in Western New York; just took an 80 mile ride over the Oatka Trail http://www.oatka.org/photos.php, and along the Genessee River. I put 50 bucks worth of Mobil regular in it before we left.

We had lunch in a little diner on the way back. As we drove out I told my wife there was a lot of chat about hard starting cars on the forum. She said "Really". I said "Yeah."

Bernie