Unusual radiator problem

[R.White]

I went to check the coolant level this morning and the radiator cap would not unscrew; it just kept turning. At first I thought the threads had stripped in the neck but in fact the neck had become detached from the body of the radiator.

My immediate problem was how to undo the cap. When I had removed the rad from the car I found that I could pull the neck up enough to get a grip of it below the cap with a tap wrench.

With the cap removed, I was able to remove the chrome surround and investigate further. Strangely, someone had applied brazing to halfway round the neck; seemingly to provide some kind of interference fit with the rad body. I can think of no other reason for it. No attempt had been made to either solder or braze the join.

My problem is going to be 1) getting the neck in the right position so that when it is fixed in place, the dog bone cap will tighten down with it's 'arms' pointing left and right, and 2) getting the neck straight and 3) getting the neck at the right height; if it is pulled out to it's furthest extent, the cap stands proud of the surround by about 1/4". If it is not out far enough, the cap will not seal.

Any suggestions or comments?

Only printable ones please !

Edited July 5, 2013 by R.White (see edit history)

[MikeC5]

Hi Ray, mine has a honeycomb core which probably means it was a re-core but the bottom most thread is about 3/8 inch from the top of radiator shell (decorative trim). As long as you get it straight I think anywhere from 3/16 to 3/8 would look O.K. As for the dog bone position, if you lost the index to the radiator body I wouldn't worry too much since a shim behind the rubber gasket can be used to change where it tightens up. I just plugged a couple of leaks on mine around the neck. If you are going DIY be careful with the torch... Too much heat can start unzipping good joints. I used some wet rags to try and contain the heated area locally.

[robert b]

I went to check the coolant level this morning and the radiator cap would not unscrew; it just kept turning. At first I thought the threads had stripped in the neck but in fact the neck had become detached from the body of the radiator.

My immediate problem was how to undo the cap. When I had removed the rad from the car I found that I could pull the neck up enough to get a grip of it below the cap with a tap wrench.

With the cap removed, I was able to remove the chrome surround and investigate further. Strangely, someone had applied brazing to halfway round the neck; seemingly to provide some kind of interference fit with the rad body. I can think of no other reason for it. No attempt had been made to either solder or braze the join.

My problem is going to be 1) getting the neck in the right position so that when it is fixed in place, the dog bone cap will tighten down with it's 'arms' pointing left and right, and 2) getting the neck straight and 3) getting the neck at the right height; if it is pulled out to it's furthest extent, the cap stands proud of the surround by about 1/4". If it is not out far enough, the cap will not seal.

Any suggestions or comments?

Only printable ones please !

Ray it is common to for me to see this sort of repair in filler necks, the problem is because the radiator has not been set on the shroud correctly and rubbing on the edge of the hole. The only fix is to solder the filler neck back into the tank but this normaly requires you to have the tank removed to do this. Some times you may be lucky to resolder the neck in place if your repairer knows what he is doing. Cleaning is the hardest thing to as the joint is in side the tank, If you stand the radiator upsidedown and suport it onthe top tank an apply gentle heat fron a torch to remelt the existing solder on the filler neck and tank with flux you may repair this joint ,not always a success. The only other option is tank removal and refit. By the look of filler neck you need a replacment in better conduition. Will look tomorrow an see what is in stock .

regards Bob

[Pete K.]

Ray, try using shims under the cap gasket to get it to tighten down at the proper setting you're striving for.

[Machinist_Bill]

Ray, you have had your share of problems this year! Thumbs up for being able to deal with it!

[R.White]

Ray it is common to for me to see this sort of repair in filler necks, the problem is because the radiator has not been set on the shroud correctly and rubbing on the edge of the hole. The only fix is to solder the filler neck back into the tank but this normaly requires you to have the tank removed to do this. Some times you may be lucky to resolder the neck in place if your repairer knows what he is doing. Cleaning is the hardest thing to as the joint is in side the tank, If you stand the radiator upsidedown and suport it onthe top tank an apply gentle heat fron a torch to remelt the existing solder on the filler neck and tank with flux you may repair this joint ,not always a success. The only other option is tank removal and refit. By the look of filler neck you need a replacment in better conduition. Will look tomorrow an see what is in stock .

regards Bob

Struth! as they say down - under. Bob, you are a guy on the forum who fixes radiators! You have kindly explained things that had me guessing. Could it be that the rad got so hot when the brazing repair was done that it melted the original solder? or do these necks break with age? The one on my car is knocked about and out of shape so if you do have a better one I can give it to the repair shop to fit. That would be a great help. Please let me know the details when you can.

Mike and Pete, some useful tips as usual. Thanks guys!

Ray.

Edited July 6, 2013 by R.White (see edit history)

[R.White]

Ray, you have had your share of problems this year! Thumbs up for being able to deal with it!

Thanks for the encouragement, Bill. Fortunately, I have quite a lot of patience - I need to have seeing that my other old car is an Austin Seven. I must be a sucker for punishment ; I even have a Range Rover - and that's my modern!! Ha ha. Gulp!:confused:

Ray.

[RWPerry]

This is apparently not that uncommon. When I started working on my Senior the neck was also loose. A car at the Texas Meet developed the same problem during a tour. By pulling up on the dogbone I was able to get enough friction to be able to unscrew it. I have rebrazed the neck and like Mike said kept the rest of the radiator cool. Also like Mike, I plan to use gasket thicknesses to adjust the positioning of the dogbone. Hopefully it will all work.

[Pete K.]

Rw and Ray, When you go to shim your cap, try using "gaskets", or shims, if you will, made out of discs cut out of the sides of gallon plastic water jugs. It seems to be the right thickness and hot water won't affect it. (And they're free!).

[R.White]

The radiator in question is a re core

[robert b]

The radiator in question is a re core

Ray ,you have what i was afraid of a 1930s to 1960 replacment ribbion cel core. These are made up of many long strips of brass or copper strips rolled to form the air and water passages, clamped and than edge soldered. With age these are very hard to repair as the solder decays with age and when heat is applied you usally create more leakes than you had before. DO NOT REMOVE THE TOP TANK, it will will be near impossible to resolder the tank back on to this core. What I suggest we do send you another filler neck, collapse the one you have and replace it on the out side of the tank where you can clean and tin the joint area for a good bond with solder ,NOT SILVER SOLDER OR BRAZING, soft solder when applied on clean and tinned substrate will have enough strength to hold the filler. You should use a Propane and Oxgyen flame or very good iron to solder this in place with plenty of flux, Do not use oxy acetleyne torch as the heat from the flame is to hot for you to follow the solder. In doing it this way you can aline your cap to the possition you need for it to fit .If in the future the joint lets go it will be much easer to repair.PM your postal address and will send one .

This damage must have happended because of our very bad roads of bad drivers of the peroid ,ha,ha,ha

regards Bob

[robert b]

Ray core number D43 made in 1946.

[R.White]

Many thanks Bob. You are a Gentleman and a Scholar..... or just a darn good bloke!

I will send you a pm.

Cheers,

Ray.

[MikeC5]

Interesting... I haven't seen one of these cores before. It sounds like some of Bob's advice might also apply to honeycomb cores...

[robert b]

Interesting... I haven't seen one of these cores before. It sounds like some of Bob's advice might also apply to honeycomb cores...

MikeC5 you are correct ,what you call a honeycomb core is constructed in the same manner and needs to treated the same in regards to heat placement any where near the core propper.As you all know Dodge Brothers used a tube and fin core made by McCord in original production and these are much more forgiving in the repair side of doing things, provided the solder to tube bonds still hold . All ways as a last resort we can allways recore in a choice of moden flat tube and fin , round tube fin (brassworks type ) or new honeycombe cellular ribbion.

regards Bob

[robert b]

Ray core number D43 made in 1946.

Ray the core that you have in your car is the heavy duty version 20 3/4" by19 1/2" by 3" thick and uses what they refer to as 0.37 mesh (a measurement of the mesh where the air flows through) . This core is 1/2" wider than the standard core used on the car as a replacement and was used for commercial vehicles . The May 1st 1951 price list shows it for an enormous sum of 12 pounds, 18 shillings and 9 pence, a good few months income in those days. regards Bob

[R.White]

Bob, that is a neat piece of information for my rather thin history file. Thank you.

Ray.

[robert b]

Ray , have been working away from shop past two days , have filler neck and will post tomorrow 10-7-13.regards Bob

[R.White]

Thanks Bob, I look forward to receiving it and will let you know when it arrives.

In the meantime I should get the surround re-chromed.

Ray.

[R.White]

I have just returned from our local platers who have quoted me £864 which equates to $1,250 for re plating the radiator surround!

I must have "mug" tattooed on my forehead if they think I will be taken for that amount. I brought the surround away again.

I know they have done good work for me before but I only want chrome, not GOLD!

Ray.

Edited July 9, 2013 by R.White (see edit history)

[MikeC5]

That's good 50% more than I paid a year ago Ray. Have you tried to get any second opinions?

[R.White]

That's good 50% more than I paid a year ago Ray. Have you tried to get any second opinions?

Feeling disgusted, I went straight across town to the only other surviving platers who had also done good work for me in the past but unfortunately they felt that the rad shell was too big for them. The guy there did, however, agree that the price was too high.

I will put out the word; I have friends in several car clubs who no doubt will put me onto someone else even if I have to travel a bit further.

Tell me Mike, did you have to remove all the rivets? The platers would want the shell completely stripped and there are quite a few rivets to remove. I would then have the job of putting new rivets in. An alternative I suppose would be to substitute them with chromed coach bolts?

Ray.

[MikeC5]

Ray, I only removed the rivets for the license plate holder bracket because it would be difficult to get good plating on the aft face (which reflects on the main shell). New England Plating said the rivets on the sides were o.k. to leave. They certainly did a good job plating over them. I can take a few close up photos if you want.

[R.White]

Yes Mike, if you could post some photos that would be great; especially the "difficult" bit at the top next to the neck. I had expected that I would have to remove the license plate holder rivets, as you did, but not necessarily all the others!

(I don't think these guys are short of work and probably didn't want the job. Last year they did me a shell for half the price quoted now.)

Thanks,

Ray.

[MikeC5]

Here's a few photos Ray.

[R.White]

Thanks Mike. Nice Job! The platers obviously managed to work their magic despite having some awkward areas to polish.

The more I think about it the more I am convinced the guy I spoke to must have had too much work on and deliberately put me off.

Cheers,

Ray.

[Guest occrj]

Am I right in thinking that some years were nickel plated, before switching to chrome?

RJ

[R.White]

Am I right in thinking that some years were nickel plated, before switching to chrome?

RJ

Yes, that is correct. Quite when Dodge Brothers went over to chrome I think has yet to be established; I remember it was a topic on another thread some time ago. In England, I believe it was later - about 1929, I think.

Ray.

[Guest occrj]

An Australian ad for Dodge cars dated October 1925 simply refers to "nickel finish", so I assume they're referring to the rad surround, headlamp rims etc? I think mine should be nickel, maybe one day when I'm feeling flush ....

RJ

[R.White]

Now there's a thought. If you felt flush enough I know of a platers in Derby who could place your rad shell alongside the Rolls Royce and Lagonda ones.

At a push my '26 could be nickel plated; chrome is just one more step on and nickel would be cheaper!

Ray.

[Guest occrj]

If you read the thread I've got running about mine, you'll see that the plain filler cap I had for my '34 Minor also fits the Dodge, it might make finding caps and filler neck assys in this country a little easier?

RJ

[R.White]

I have visited your thread. The Morris rad cap idea is a useful tip. I wonder what other British cars used similar threads? MG Midgets were based on the Minor.

As it happens, I still have the old cap and Boyce meter which came with the car. The arms of the dog bone had been cut off and I have a theory about why. If as I suspect, the neck was only wedged tightly in the radiator top tank, without the arms to tighten the cap, there would be less chance of dislodging the neck. I doubt that the previous owner knew how to properly repair the detached neck.

Ray.

[MikeC5]

I suspect you are right Ray. The dog bone is also fairly weighty which might exacerbate the problem too.

[Guest occrj]

Sounds likely, or maybe someone was fed up with not being able to remove the rad cap & bone while the bonnet is open (at least if it's like mine!).

R

[MikeC5]

That too...

[R.White]

Now where did I put my hack saw........:eek:

[Guest 1930]

Now where did I put my hack saw........:eek:

Dont you dare Ray!

[R.White]

Only joking, Jason. I fear you might take a flight over here to sort me out if I did something like that!

[MikeC5]

You can always buy a new one

[R.White]

It is new! I only just bought a new dog bone and gauge for a small fortune but it looks brilliant!

I have also got a new emblem to replace the grotty one that came with the car (no enamel at all) and when I have had the rad shell and headlight rims re-plated the car will look a whole lot better.

Ray.