moon motor

[JustDave]

hello everyone,im starting the restration on my moon roadster,my question is the motor has set along time without plugs in it,i was thinking about using the reverse electrolisis to soak the motor complete as and assembly to try and get the rust out before trying to get it apart,anybody see a problem,i dont know of any damage it would cause, any ideas, dave

[rsb]

My experience with electrolysis rust removal is that it works well but only if the rusty part is in close proximity or line-of-sight to the anode. Getting the anode down into a cylinder may be tricky. Watch out for soft metals, they will degrade where iron wont.

Ron

[Guest cben09]

If there is sand in it ,,,the electric tric will NOT remove sand and clutter,,

You did not mention if the crankshaft is free to turn,,,

Pull off the pan and head,and see what you have,,,

I think Moon was a OHV head/motor,,,been years since I saw one,,light blue w/tan leather seats,,,

Make a careful effort to get the motor to turn,,,remove the dirt from cylenders first,,

Is the engine in the frame or out,,If in,,try starter first,

Or rock back and forth in HI gear,,,If it is stuck,,you only need the tinyist movement to start

,,These things generally dont come loose with a bang,,,,Be careful of dammage from sand and S,,,

Ask questions first,,,we have a good crew here,,

Best of luck,,,Ben [ in Maine]

[Dave Henderson]

I'm surprized no one has mentioned patiently soaking the cylinders with a good penetrant; kerosene, Marvel Mystery oil, Kroil, transmisson fluid, etc. Give it time, at least a week, and add more fluid if needed. Depending on how rusty it is in there it may or may not be possible to save the pistons, A rebore or sleeveing may also be needed. With the head off, and after the soaking, put a 2x4 in and tap each piston. You may also be able to get at the flywheel and gently pry. Using the starter before it frees up might over strain it, or possibly do some damage to the ring gear, bendix, rods, etc.

It may not be so bad, depending on how clean and dry the storage was. I recently found that the engine in a car that sat 20 years without spark plugs was not even stuck. Good luck, a rare car, any pics? .

[JustDave]

well i soanked it with a rust penetrant about 6 months ago no luck,the engine is a flat head six,like i said the spark plugs have been out since the late 40s early fifties,the story i got when i purchased it is the guy bought it new in 1927 drove it until late 40s early fifties then tore it apart to restoe, sounded a little fishy to me,then i received the original 1927 pinkslip so maybe it was the truth,anyway it sat in central calif apart since he tore it down last registered in 1947,i think ill probably have to sleeve all the cylinders but would like to use the same block if possible,i just need to get the engine derusted so i can take it apart

[Guest cben09]

Where are you located,,,There should be a good engine shop in the area,,

You can do a lot of this work yourself with time and many questions,;

I would be suprised if it needed sleeving,,The top three quarters to inch of ring travel is the highest pressure

The bores need not be like a mirror,,,Just a surface that the rings can seat on,,,

Of course the original milage/wear will affect this too,,,Measure the taper in the bore,,

There is no need to fix the engine to go 80,000 miles if it will only be asked to go 10,000 in the next 50 years,,,

There is the choice of how much will be spent to make it quiet,,,

A clumsy disassembly can cost more than all the prevous milage put together,,!!!!

When you come to a roadblock,,,reread this,,,,,,It'LL pay off,,

I dont recall hearing what year it is,,,Generally alloy pistons after 1925,,,,a few earlier,,,They expand more and

are a bit noisier,,I still like the old Iron pistons,,,These are slow speed engines ,,Be careful hotrodding them,,,

I had 2 tractors,,70years old,,,and they still stuck pistons and valves unless I flooded the cyl w/oil by

pouring 2cupfulls of oil in the intake,on autum shutdown,,,,This was a 5" cast iron piston,,Nice,,,

Rocking the engine generally is a good way to apply force to the engine,,,yes of course use penetrating oil

there is a whole dissertation on that here somewhere,,ATF and acetone,,,50/50 seems to have won that race,,

Heatinng the block to gain a TINY bit of clearence is VERRRRY useful,,,!!!!!

IF,,there is a friendly Stanley steamer owner in the area,,,is a good source of steam,,Jack up the RIGHT rear wheel,

as thats the side the boiler pump is on,,,,,,to pump water,,,,Remove the tube to the whistle and connect 30' of tubing

Connect up,,,and put 2 small boards on the side of the tubing,,,w/hose clamps,,as a handle to prevent burns,,

Use caution the tube can whip if you open the valve too suddenly,,,,it will also turn purple from the heat

almost instantly,,,Put the tube end into any water jacket opening for a few minutes,,,then go to another hole

After its all toasty warm,,,rock it in hi gear,,,it should come loose,,tho probably not instantly,,,

Took me 5&a half hours to get a sleeve valve engine to free up,,,for a while I thought i'd lost it,,we just kept rocking,,

Then it movedjjjust a bit at first,,then a quarter,,,then 1/2,,,then a full turn,,,then flood with Mystery oil to lube it,,,

All this time the Stanley,,,,running w/ wheel off the ground ,,pumping the water to the boiler,,,

This was the start of rummors about an old geezers sanity Steam all ovver the place,,

Yesterday I ran that same Stanley in the Limerick parade,,,and everyone loved it,,,we were late to start,,,but raised 400#

steam in 13min from turning on the mainburner,,and got into the rear half of the parade,,We put a vid of last years

parade on last year,,another thread maybee,,,,All for now,,,Ben in Maine

[F&J]

Also be aware of other stuck things that will break if you do get the crankshaft to turn.. Like oil pump, valves, cam, etc.

Too late if you already oiled it, but there was a recent thread on hamb on using just water to free up a stuck motor. Sounds silly untill you really think deeper about it. I think I will try it on the next one, as i do this kind of work for other people at times.

[Guest prs519]

As mentioned, I have seen several successes at this by using a large heavy duty screwdriver or small bar through the starter hole. Between the fulcrum leverage and the

flywheel gearing, a tremendous force can be applied. Careful to no breakee, though, get your lever in tight. PS> Ben, not everybody has a Stanley Steamer at hand! HO!

Edited May 29, 2013 by prs519
addition (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

Take the head off and look inside. If cylinders are rusted the engine will have to be rebuilt or at least overhauled. Slight rust pitting can be overlooked. Take out pistons, hone cylinders and replace rings. If cylinders are tapered or worn over .010 the cylinders will have to be trued and new pistons installed.

Basically you need to diagnose first and see what needs to be done. Don't worry about electrolysis at this stage. Worry about whether the engine needs to be rebuilt. If it is really rusted solid it needs to come out. Yes it is possible to free up a rusted engine by electrolysis but you need a big container like a plastic barrel big enough to hold the whole engine block. Then all you need is a battery charger, some water and washing soda.

[JustDave]

Take the head off and look inside. If cylinders are rusted the engine will have to be rebuilt or at least overhauled. Slight rust pitting can be overlooked. Take out pistons, hone cylinders and replace rings. If cylinders are tapered or worn over .010 the cylinders will have to be trued and new pistons installed.

Basically you need to diagnose first and see what needs to be done. Don't worry about electrolysis at this stage. Worry about whether the engine needs to be rebuilt. If it is really rusted solid it needs to come out. Yes it is possible to free up a rusted engine by electrolysis but you need a big container like a plastic barrel big enough to hold the whole engine block. Then all you need is a battery charger, some water and washing soda.

rebuilding the engine is expected,i just wanted to know if electrolisis has any adverse effects on the assembled motor,this car was a p.o.s. when i bought it and probably shouldnt have been restored,but i figured one more old car scrapped is one lost forever,ill post pics as soon as i can figure out how, under restorations so everyone can laugh,i think maybe bernie in australia (oldcar) would probably be the only one to tackle it without hesitation,when you see the pics youll understand,every thing will need overhauled or rebuilt,of the 4 cars i own this is the worse so i figured it should be done before its undoable,the body is all apart now trying to get it clean enought for primer,once the chassic is all apart and cleaned ill start the wood work, wish me luck dave

[Dave Henderson]

We LOVE watching the progress when a basket case such as Bernie's Dixie Flyer

and Packard, and the '34 Chevy coupe are taken on. Keep us posted with yours and You'll have an audience following you and cheering you on.

[Rusty_OToole]

Electrolysis is excellent for this purpose. It will remove rust without touching good steel or iron and without affecting machined surfaces. I know a local mechanic recently rebuilt a junkyard refugee, 1960s Dodge V8. This engine sat in a junkyard for years with no carburetor or distributor and was badly rusted inside. The mechanic put it in a big plastic drum with water and washing soda and connected it to a battery charger. He also had a battery in the circuit which I don't think is absolutely necessary but makes the process work faster. After 2 or 3 days he took the engine out, washed it off with clean water and it came apart easily.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[F&J]

Cast iron... be careful and keep an eye on it.

Also, this process DOES eat good steel. I know because I did a very pitted 32 Ford hood top that had no pinholes, no cracks at all. After i was done it had many holes, and cracks developed along any factory bent edge where the metal gets thinner by bending.

Edited May 30, 2013 by F&J (see edit history)

[Guest cben09]

Heating and cooling will be more effective than the reverse plating thing,,,,

Those lill electrons will not venture so far from the electrode --annode ,,,

down that little path,,, ,010 " wide,,between the piston and cylender wall,to do their job,,

The alloy piston has a different expansion rate from the iron,,so heating and cooling

will produce a tiny movement,,,

Just enough to get the process started,,

The BACK-and-FORTH of this process is important,,

Turning in one direction is more likely to get the piston hung up on a tight spot,,,

Cheers,,Ben