Vapor lock in my '28 std

[Dave_B]

Hi all,

I just returned from the BCA National in Charlotte NC. Man was it hot! It was in the high 90s and low 100s everyday. I drove my '28 standard touring car to the show from the DC area. A total of 425 miles. We left on Wednesday and the weather was great. On Thursday the temp went up and the only gas available was 10% ethanol. For the first time in over 40 years I started having vapor lock issues. I could see large bubbles working their way down from the vacuum tank into the glass sediment bowl.

Looking around on the various forums here I came across a post reporting successful use of a mixture of 3 parts regular gas to 1 part kerosene in a 32 Buick which is a low compression engine. (I think mine is about 4.1 to 1). It occurred to me that this mixture would be less likely to evaporate and reduce the vapor locking prob.

Is this a crazy idea?

Thoughts?

PS It was a wonderful show and we had a great time, despite the heat.

Dave

[Mark Shaw]

Dave,

No, it's not crazy, but ethanol is still in regular gas. If you have a smart phone, you can find real gas via The Internet. I usually add Marvel Mystery Oil (MMO) to the gas in my older cars. I carry MMO in the little booze bottles from the airlines and add one for every ten gallons of gas. I have never had sticky valves and have never had a vapor lock problem (Except when I tried to climb Pike's Peak in my 38 Special; I almost made it too!).

[dibarlaw]

Dave :

Was so very glad to see your car at Concord. Sorry I didn't catch up with you. I took some photos Friday afternoon at the hotel of your lovely car. Would have liked to discuss similar points about our cars. I have a 1925-25 that I am trying to rectify its many errors and issues. I was happy to hear that you drove it that distance! The restoration facility that has my 1937-41 said that it was foolhardy to expect to drive my car to the meet from Chambersburg Pa. About the same distance you traveled. Of course that was after they promised me that the 37-41 would be ready to DRIVE to the meet! This was why I chose them. And would not have agreed to certain expenditures if I was not expecting to drive these distances. Still not done! Quite a few of the 37-38 guys drove greater distances. Talking with others who have gone down this road it seems that this is the "hook". Once they have your car and money it's all about their timeline.

And thank you Mark for the Marvel MO tip I will try it with both my cars

Larry

[unimogjohn]

Dave, where/city are you?

I too drove my 28 to the Buick Nationals in Richmond from northern VA. Not as far as you did. We never missed a beat and did not have any problems.

[Dave_B]

Mark,

I still have the master radiator you sold me in the car. I truly believe that is why it did not over heat in those extreme conditions, so thanks for that. I have heard MMO idea before I just haven't gotten around to trying it. A fuel pump vendor at the show suggested a cup of dextron which I tried because I could get some at the 7-11. It helped a little but it still vapor locked. In desperation on the last day I was there I pumped one gallon of diesel into a half full tank. That helped too but still after about a half hour driving in the upper 90s heat it started coughing and sputtering just as I pulled into the U-Haul where I had reserved a truck and trailer for the ride home. I will definitely look on the smart phone next time, but sometimes I may not have a choice. I didn't see anything other than ethanol the whole time I was in Charlotte.

My thought was if you could bring down the boiling point of the E10 gas enough with the kerosene it could be used on those occasions when regular alcohol free gas was not available.

Bill Sullivan from the 27 forum says he has wrapped his vacuum tank and fuel line with foil backed insulation, foil side out. He has had some success with that and he lives in Albuquerque, NM.

A contributing factor may be exhaust leaking around the ends of the tube running between the heat riser and the exhaust pipe. I'm open to ideas for sealing those connections. I talked to Bill McLaughlin (He drove his '29 from Ontario) at the show and he said he has blocked off the exhaust from the heat riser with a piece of stainless steel. He also blocked both ends of tube between the heat riser and the exhaust pipe with freeze plugs. That would help get hot gases out of the engine compartment quicker and reduce the heat in there. Of course he has a mechanical fuel pump so that may help.

John,

I'm in Silver Spring MD about a half mile outside the beltway at Georgia Ave. It was a great adventure. I'm lucky that my girlfriend came along and was such a good sport about the whole thing. I did have two break downs on the way down though. The first one was near Culpeper when the over-drive locked up. I went the rest of the way in regular 3rd gear at about 45mph. The second time was just over the NC/VA line when the carb float gave out. I pulled into a gas station (no repair shop, just pumps) and was over on the side and the car is running like crap. Some guy asks if everything is alright and that he had a shop 1/2 mile down the road. We followed him and after about three hours we were back on the road. Great guys. They wouldn't take any money, so I gave them a bottle of wine and they gave me some moonshine. It was great fun.

Dave

[unimogjohn]

Dave, Larry is in PA and I am in northern VA. We are both about an hour or so away from you. Yell if you want some help, or just want to talk old Buicks. We would be happy to come up and play.

I also blocked on the heat exchanger on my 28. I made a plate of galvanized plate that I had for the connection at the exhaust manifold. Not too thick, maybe the thickness of a gasket. I also stuck in a freeze plug at the exhaust flap control point. It fit OK, but not perfect, have some leakage there that I stopped with some heavy duty sealant. No adverse effects and the engine compartment is cooler. I do have the splash/mud panel installed too so it is more difficult for the hot air to get out. I have not had any issue with vapor lock on the 28, the 23 is a another matter with the vacuum tank right on the side of the engine.

[5219]

I had a serious vapor lock problem in my 1940 LaSalle. After wrapping the lines didn't help, I tried running on 10% kerosene.

It didn't hurt anything, but it didn't seem to help very much either. I finally bit the bullet and went for an electric fuel pump in series with the original pump.

I still think that kerosene should work. The older gasoline was much less volatile than our newer stuff. The right amount of kero should raise the boiling point just enough. It is merely a question of finding the right mix.

[Dave_B]

5219, I may experiment with the kerosene. I think my first move will be to work on sealing up the exhaust system, though I may end up with an electric fuel pump. I have looked at threads from all over these forums and that seems to be where people end up. But I'm reluctant to go that route, too modern for my taste.

John, Why don't you and Larry drive your cars to the all GM show next month. It is held at Montgomery College in Rockville. It would be great to meet you guys and see your cars, plus the 20's are way under represented. It is usually just me.

Dave

[dibarlaw]

Dave :

I would love to come to the show. But I still am having my overheating issues. I have machined a plug for the exhaust valve body. I have back flushed the radiator again. I had my spare radiator recored but am still reluctant to change over yet. Still hoping to find a better shell to get plated. My shell has lots of pits and many coats of silver paint. My next step will be to make the blocking plate from the heat riser to exhaust manifold. May have to check the pump again. When I first worked on these problems in November I started with the pump which seemed like it pushed out very well. Again within a mile or so it was pushing out the overflow.

If we can't make it to the Rockville show. Maybe we can come for a visit after my 37 is back on the road.

Larry DiBarry

1925-25

1937-41

[Dave_B]

Larry,

I added an over flow tank from a 60's Volvo with a 4 lb cap. This arrangement has keep the water from running out at stop lights with no leaking at the water pump shaft. You could get a volvo bottle like mine from Joe Lazenby in Carlisle. I had over heating issues for years and it took all the pleasure out driving the car. I installed a radiator from a Master and that took care of that. I don't know if Standard and Master interchangeable for 1925 they way they are for 28 but I will say I'm very pleased with the results.

Dave

[Mark Shaw]

Dave,

Glad to see that you are driving your Buick... I think if you block the heat riser, you may run cool enough with a little MMO in the gas. I have not tried it, but I am told that two cycle oil works well too. I also like the idea of insulating the vacuum tank and may try that on my 24 Master PU.

I do have an electric fuel pump on my 38 Buick Special (the previous owner installed it), but only for starting or vapor lock issues. It is plumbed in line with the stock fuel pump. Straight 8 engines tend to boil out the carburator bowl when they are shut down, so it takes awhile to crank until it refills the bowl. I just switch on the pump (located near the fuel tank) for about 30-40 seconds prior to starting, and it fires up OK. It also works to pressurize the suction line to prevent vapor lock and can be switched on or off as needed.

[buick5563]

Dave,

I was in charge of arranging the cars in the Driven Class this year and was impressed (and stunned honestly) that you drove your car that far. Having grown up in NW DC and having relatives in NC, I know exactly how far that drive is.

I drive one of my 55's from Texas to every years Nationals and even us lowly Post War folk succumb to vapor lock. The only sure way to avoid it is by finding real gas, which I did with an iPhone app this year. While I am admittedly not familiar with Pre War cars (although Mark Shaw is doing his best to convert me), ethanol is ethanol. Just install an electric fuel pump, and you won't get stranded due to vapor lock.

Anyway, it was a pleasure seeing your fine car. I will officially doff my cap and return to the lurking section .

[dibarlaw]

Dave:

Thanks for the info. But alas I believe I will probably have to pull the head as the foaming is symptomatic of a blown gasket. I just thought I could enjoy the car a little bit before I would be getting into major engine work. Did compression test yesterday. High reading is 55lb low is 48lb. On an earlier post I was congratulating myself on a job well done on rebuilding my fan hub. Re-machining and fitting bronze bearings to have the side play down to only .003. (Even did a patent search for acurate drawings.) Also to stop the oil slinging and having to scrub out the fan belt each time it ran. I made a new leather belt but have not used it. Each time I drove the car and the overflow would spit out and( I presumed) steam out more imbeded oil from the belt. Also leave a mess from the oil that leaks from between the block and the crankcase. Today after about 5 min running and shut off before any water could push out, I saw that on the crank collar there was a line of heavy oil directly below the fan hub. This was unlike the spatter I would normally see on the inside of the hood. I checked the fan and I could barely turn it. I could move the belt though. So my fine repair had locked up! So tomorrow I will go out and buy some 4"aluminum and make the fan hub insert to take sealed ball bearings. When I dissasembled the hub it still had about 1/2 of the oil I put in to proper level. So it was getting out and onto the belt. But it also had bronze particles from the new bearings. I did make spiral oil groves in the new bearings. The hub was was originaly full of crusty grease from an Alemite fitting. I had to chip it out!

So at this time I am back to square one. From my first post on the Buick site..... "STILL LOOKING FOR A DRIVER BUICK"

Larry

[Dave_B]

Mike, Thanks for your kind words, it was quite a journey. I think the solution to the vapor lock may be all of the above, block off the heat riser, use regular gas, insulate the vacuum tank, and if all else fails, install the electric fuel pump.

Larry, That's a shame about the fan hub. The bronze bushing idea was a good one, too bad. I bought a parts car once that had a Model T fan hub, so I guess this has been a problem for Buick owners for a long time. I thought somebody was making the fan hub with the new sealed bearings.

Do you think re-torquing the head bolts would help?

Dave

[Mark Shaw]

Check to make sure your lower radiator hose is not collapsing and starving the water pump. This too will cause foaming due to cavitation within the pump... I sold pumps for many years and starved suction is a common problem.

My $0.02

[Grimy]

Here are some additional suggestions from experience in my three 1920s cars (no Buicks):

1. Overheating: I have found that ethylene glycol antifreeze in unpressurized cooling systems foams at speed and displaces water through the overflow, especially at highway speeds, so that you frequently need to top off water. In fact, the overflow can actually create a siphon effect that pulls water out of the system. One cure for this (other than pressurizing the system and using an overflow tank) is to use antifreeze only for winter months and use straight water plus suitable anti-corrosion solutions (Pencool, etc.) in the summer for touring. I understand that "low silicate" anti-freeze does not foam as much but have not confirmed this.

2. Vapor lock on vacuum tank-equipped cars:

a. The exhaust downpipe on many 1920s cars is at the front of the engine by design to permit hot air to be focused on the updraft carb to improve vaporization of fuel. That was needed for 1920s fuel, but is exactly the opposite of our need today. Suggest you wrap the vertical downpipe with asbestos-substitute material such as offered by Restoration Supply, McVey's, and other vendors to reduce the amount of hot air pushed at the carb.

b. Vacuum tanks are necessarily on the same side of the engine as the carb and thus, usually (except for T-head engines), as the exhaust manifold. Tanks are usually above the exhaust manifold and get quite a bit of heat. I have had great success with wrapping the vacuum tank with quilted insulation material, fastened with Velcro to permit easy off and on. Don't forget the bottom of the vacuum tank!

c. One can also prop the hood sides slightly open (a couple of inches) for hot weather touring by placing a cello-wrapped roll of paper towels on the hood side's resting surface, then tying down the hood sides with rope or bungees. This creates an opening at the front for additional ambient air entry plus additional hot-air escape from the engine compartment. As a more finished solution, some Pierce owners have routed grooves in opposite sides of 4x4 blocks of wood about a foot long, with the grooves positioned to capture the bottom of the hood side and the low vertical lip against which the hood side normally rests.

d. This does not seem to be the OP's problem, but if one is touring at higher elevations, use local (altitude-adjusted) fuel rather than starting with a full tank from sea level. I have had some success with using 10% diesel in the fuel tank in extremely hot weather, and regardless of season I always add Marvel Mystery Oil (4 oz per 10 gallons) to fuel in any L-head engine.

[dibarlaw]

Thanks Mark:

One of the first things I did last october was to add a coil of brass wire to the lower hose. On some of the later production 25 standards an extra boss and 2 bolts were added to the side of the block for an extra stand-off support. Then there would be 2 shorter pieces of hose.Thus eliminating the collapsing. Mine has this boss but not the standoff part #

186584. So I used the coil.

Larry

[Guest morerevsm3]

a kevlar fire blanket from a discount store is an excellent heat shield (I use one to wrap the exhaust on my race car, and turbo on my sons car) you could wrap it around the exhaust manifold and tie with attached straps, can easily be removed when you reach your destination if you want to display with the hood open, and, from experience, will drop under hood temps by more than 50%

[dibarlaw]

Dave:

I will probably start annother thread about the fan hub later when I get back to school. I would like to engage my students in the design problem on how to develop it in our 3-D Modeling program. The original article in the Bugle, (January 1981) was by Brian Stanley BCA#4843 and was geared for 1930-1931 cars. Also it is in the Buick Technical Tips Book. When I first joined the BCA in 1987 the Bugle had an ad for the rebuilding/conversion service. This was by Jack Corliss BCA #6932. It notes the applications of cars, years

and prices. Anyone out there use this service? I am posting pictures of what I did specifically to fit my 1925 hub case. Brian's 1981 cost for materials was $12.00 for the 4"dia

X4" long aluminum. 2 sealed bearings@ $3.50 each. Plus free piece of 1" shaft. Less than $20! Of course his labor did not factor ino it. My material cost, $18.00 aluminum, Two bearings $33.18. But I bet his was American made bearings! And 1"dia.shaft from my junk box. I have a box and bag full of aluminum turning scrap now to recycle.

I installed today and works great. No more spatter!

Larry

[Dave_B]

Larry,

Great looking job.

You know you are not the only one with this problem, there is a market for that piece.

I might have to break down and get a lathe.

Dave

[dibarlaw]

Dave :

Glad to finally meet up with you at the GM show at Rockville MD. Again it is a shame that more pre 1950 cars don't show up at these meets. But I know that if my 1925 was fully

functioning, that it would be over a 3 hr drive avoiding major highways. It was great to talk to you personally and use your 1928 as a teaching aid for me. As I said to you I tried to contact all known owners of anything close to my model Buick to start a dialog. The only ones who have been giving of help are Leif in Sweden, Ben in Austraila and Mark in

Washington. Thanks for your advice and keep in touch.

Larry

[smithbrother]

You can take a COOKIE SHEET made out of aluminum and make a heat shield/deflector to go under the carb and above the manifold to direct the heat away from the carb. Hot Rodders have done such for years.

Newer fuels seem to BOIL at lower temps, IMO.

Dale in Indy