which engine is better?

[Guest DeSotoStan]

Having received much invaluable advice on trying to keep my '49 DeSoto on the road, I'm currently considering another '49-early 50's car. 2 engines seem to be common, & I'm wondering if one is better than the other in terms of reliability, ease of repair, durability, etc: ONE engine is the straight-8 Buick with the valve cover on top, spark plugs on the side. The OTHER is on a straight-8 Pontiac Chieftan (currently on E-Bay), which looks like a rectangular box with the spark plugs sticking straight up on top of the engine.

I'm sure there are terms to describe these 2 engine types, but is one preferable to the other?

Thanks,

DeSoto(formerly)Stan

[Guest De Soto Frank]

All things considered, when either engine is in good condition, they are both good, reliable engines.

The Buick is an overhead-valve engine (Buick called them "Valve-in-head"), which means the intake and exhaust valves are located in the cylinder head, above the piston, and generally these engines "breathe" better, and offer better performance than their L-head (flathead, like your De Soto) contemporaries.

The Pontiac is an L-head engine (flathead), which means the valves are located in the cylinder block, along side the cylinder bore. Sometimes this type of engine is referred to as a "side-valve" engine.

While most flathead engines generally offer modest performance, they are usually durable powerplants.

The biggest downside to the Buick straight-eight is that it uses poured connecting rod bearings, which are expensive to have re-done, should that be required. They can be converted to use insert-type bearings, but that is also expensive.

The Pontiac has insert bearings, which are (usually) cheaper and easier to replace, and within the scope of most automotive machine shops.

Otherwise, consider the rest of the car, its condition, and how much it appeals to you... make sure you at least like it, if not love it, because it will tax your finances and your patience...

[Joe Block]

flat are cool, the OH valve engine is more modern in design, i try to get away from poured bearings, I thought that when out style in the mid 1930's

[Guest]

As has been said make sure you like whichever one you buy.

I have never found any problem with poured babbit bearings. I just took my engine apart last week. The bearings all need to be redone but I have put over 300,000 miles on the engine since I rebuilt it.

The Buick can be driven all day at speeds in the 70-90 mph range (if in good tune you might get 18 or 19 mpg) and would top out in the high ninties.. The Pontiac will cruise all day at 65 to 70 mph and top out between 75 and 80 (probably 14-16mpg at these speeds). You are looking at two vastly different cars. One is one step above entry level and the other is one step below luxury. I have driven and owned both and both were great cars. It comes down to which one needs less done to it ($$$$) and how it feels when you sit in it and drive it. No doubt about it "when better cars are built Buick will build them" but the Pontiac is also a fine car.

[Guest DeSotoStan]

Thanks very much DeSotoFrank & Tinindian:

This settles it: the flathead is good at more modest speeds,& should the engine need serious valve work, most mechanics can rpair it. The Buick valve in head, will eventually require expensive repair.

Your discouraging (but realistic) comment also reinforce what I've wanted to supress: the knowledge that in order to drive one of these regularly, & in decent condition & repair, I'll need to find a much better paying job.

ss

[Matt Harwood]

The Buick "valve in head" design isn't exotic--the small block Chevy and every other overhead valve car since the dawn of time has a similar design. It's no more expensive to repair or exotic to the average mechanic. In fact, I bet more of today's mechanics will be more comfortable with the familiar OHV setup than a flathead, though neither is especially exotic or difficult to understand or repair. The Buicks went to insert bearings in late '48 and '49 depending on the series, so that's a non-issue, too. I converted my '41 to insert bearings when I had it rebuilt and the cost was surprisingly modest--so modest that I don't even remember how much it was. A big Buick is notably more powerful than the Pontiac, and the small Buicks are nice around-town drivers that will run at 60 MPH on the highway without effort, as will the Pontiac.

I'd take the advice up above and buy the car that makes you happiest when you drive it. If it's a Pontiac or Buick, the reliability will be a wash ultimately, so just buy yourself some fun and don't worry about repair costs, which are probably not all that different.

Also, try to shake off this feeling that old cars are inherently unreliable and you need some kind of expert PhD. mechanic to maintain them. They're very simple machines that run on primitive principles, and best of all, they were designed to be serviced in the field by guys with a 6th grade education. Sure, if it tosses a rod because you were screaming along at 5000 RPM, yeah, you'll need professional help. But keeping a healthy one in top-running condition? You'll need a screwdriver, a set of wrenches, and a few basic parts that are still widely available. Nothing exotic or challenging about keeping any of these old cars happy and on the road. I've found that the important distinction isn't in the maintenance, but rather in how you drive them. Drive it like a modern car, and yeah, maybe it'll get sick more often. Drive it with some appreciation that it's 50-70 years old and was designed for different conditions, and I think you'll find that it is every bit as reliable as a modern car. Heck, my '29 Cadillac has NEVER failed to start, never left me stranded, and I drive it all the time (3000 miles and counting). Gas, oil, clean and gap the plugs now and then, and make sure the coolant is topped off, and it's good to go for another summer.

Good luck and have fun!

Edited July 1, 2012 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Guest]

As far as costs go, up untill now including my Grandfathers original purchase price and repairs, (not counting oil, fan belts etc.) but including three differentials, two sets of king pins, one engine overhaul and 8 sets of tires has cost us (him for 29 years and me for 53 years) $6396.00 or $78.00 per year. At 499,800 miles this engine overhaul is going to cost almost as much as everything up to now. But figure it out it comes to 1.25 cents per mile. Best deal I ever had and even with doubling the cost it will be good and I have had a ball driving it.

[Guest DeSotoStan]

Matt (& Reid?),

thanks for the perspective: I guess the combination of how much you "fall in love" with the car, & its condition, should ultimately be the deciding factors- regardless of type of engine. However, Matt, even though these are simple machines, isn't the knowledge of how to (for example) rebuild/tune a carburator becoming something of the past? Young mechanics haven't seen one.

By the way, Tinindian, is the burgandy-colored car in the photo the one with almost 500,000 miles on it? Yes, at $1.25 per mile, it seems worth it. However, as a newer buyer of an old car, & the likely costs in the future, it (for me) will be more like $500. per mile.

Stan

[Rusty_OToole]

If you are shopping for a car, and are concerned about engine life and overall practicality, move up a few years and buy a more modern car. One with an OHV V8.

All 3 of the cars you mention will have broadly similar performance and driving experience. Top choice for reliable practical transportation and easy low cost repairs, the DeSoto. In other words you already have the best car.

To get anything much better you will have to get a more modern car.

[Rusty_OToole]

By the way the Buick straight eight has NO advantage in power, economy, reliability or anything else compared to a good flathead.

It is the more modern short stroke ohv V8 (and the new Ford OHV 6, 1952 and up) that have all the advantages. OHV per se is NOT necessarily better than a flathead, in fact, a flathead is better, all else being equal.

[Pete O]

One thing to think about is parts availabililty. I know first hand that parts for the Buick 8 are readily available- things like gaskets, points etc. I don't know about the availablity of the Pontiac parts. Maybe some Pontiac guys can chime in on that. And there seems to be a weakness in the Pontiac engine that I've read about on this board that the Buick does not have. There is an internal sheetmetal water distribution tube in the Pontiac that is prone to rusting out. Apparently it's a pain to replace. Oh, and by 1950 for sure and probably earlier, the Buick had switched to insert bearings.

[poci1957]

Desotostan might take a look at Pontiac Parts and Pontiac Auto Parts - California Pontiac Restoration for availability