MikeC5 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I pulled apart the steering drag link rod joint where it connects to the steering gearbox sector arm to see what sort of condition things were in. Here are a few photos. The ball end on the sector arm does have noticeable wear and a sharp ridge created by the edge of the cup. Should I file this down? The cup photo shows some real metal on metal galling. Since I really have nothing to compare it to, I'm looking for input from anyone who has peeked at this. Was yours this worn? Is it still safe?Also, does anyone know why this abbreviated little grease fitting is used? It's the same thread as all of the others (1/8 PT x 28 tpi) but is shorter than a regular straight fitting (and has the screwdriver slot in the back for installation/removal). It there a tire clearance issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gundog99 Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 you may find "Steering Gear Dodge Senior 2249" (15 march 2011) worth looking at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 My opinions are coming from a car owner of a few years later so not entirely familiar with 25 but in my opinion that pitman arm ( what you are calling a sector arm ) is worn badly. I have had quite a few of these apart and some are worn worse than others but that one is bad. I don't however see alot of wear on the cups and unless I am mistaken the pitman arm is worn so badly because of improper adjustment of your drag link ( I.E sloppiness ) causing the drag link itself to cause that scoring on the inner far most portion of that pitman arm. On models a few years later this adjustment is made by a cap that looks very similar to the slotted cap you show in the last two pictures. I don't see how yours goes together, in what direction so I cant comment even on how the grease fitting ( that you say is there ) would be accessed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted March 24, 2012 Author Share Posted March 24, 2012 I'll get a better picture showing the grease fitting placement. As near as can tell, the drag link only has the one cap. The spherical surface in side the drag link end appears to be machined into the link itself (no replaceable cup). I suppose one could get the pitman arm ball welded up and re-machined. Hopefully I can find out what the diameter should be. I don't think I've seen any replacement caps selling for these either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Quote...........suppose one could get the pitman arm ball welded up and re-machined...........This is something I have considered as wellLater had two of the cups, both removable all fit inside of drea link in this order if I remember correctly....Spring, cup, pitman arm ( ball ) ( non-removable just like yours ) cup spring and threaded cap with screw slot adjustment on the end. Two ( if memory serves me ) grease fitting on drag link at either end. It seems to me that there was either a discussion on this some years back ( its been a while anyway ) or there was an article printed......I think there was a discussion and one of the members here ( cant remember who ) was looking into having the balls re-machined. I dont really know how critical it is that the ball and the cups be machined and fit perfectly unless its gonna be a daily driver, not sayin its not critical but I wouldnt think so. I would think that as long as there is the proper amount of tension (I.E. no sloppiness ) than maybe that would be more critical but hopefully someone can correct me. Either way I myself would be looking maybe for a arm, in my opinion yours is questionable to use at all, if you do decide to look for another than ( you prob. know this I know ) get the assy, drag link and pitman arm all still attached so you know which cups went where and it all mates as nicely as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Mike,forgive me for sounding alarmist but that Pitman arm could be unsafe to use. Another thing which you may or may not have thought about is that if anyone suggests it can be rescued by metal spraying, may I suggest you ignore them; the part will become brittle and be even more likely to snap. If there was ever a case for a club getting some new parts made, I think this is probably it. We had to do it with the Austin Sevens before anyone got hurt. As Jason said, this problem has been discussed before and if I remember, there may be a non -original but more commonly found alternative. My own car is now ready for the annual test and I am wondering what state mine are in!Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 I guess another alternative ( if the body was not so bad ) would be to cut off the ball, drill it to accept a new ball at the correct matching cup size. No-one would ever know the difference but of course consideration would have to be given to the strength of the unit as piecemeal like I suggest. Maybe disregard this post....something that should be considered maybe, good discussion topic at the very least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 Thanks for the input guys. I'm going to keep an eye on it. I really don't think it will snap off since the narrow base of the sphere is fine. I'm using moly-disulphide grease which I'm sure is far better than whatever was used int he day. The steering isn't especially hard to turn (although I don't have much to compare with). I was wrong about the cups; there are 2 of them per joint. The forward joint on the link did look much better. It would be nice if the pitman arm ball could be replaced but the way it's forged, I really don't think there is enough material to allow for a hole to bolt a new ball on there. Any idea if the pitman arm is a casting or forging? I'm not sure I'd trust weld building up the ball if it's a casting (and I agree metal spraying isn't the way either Ray). If there is a more commonly available replacement for the pitman, I'd sure like to know about it. Since it doesn't have much offset, it does look like an arm made from flat wrought steel plate (with added beef for a hole at the link end) might work, assuming a ball and cups of the proper size can be sourced to fit the existing drag link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Quote........Any idea if the pitman arm is a casting or forging? .........Looks like a parting line down the middle so prob. cast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 Forgings may also have a parting line too though. Mass produced forgings typically have an upper and lower die in a monster press. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 I would expect these things to be hardened but whether we are talking case hardening or something else, I wouldn't know, but I bet Bill would know.Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gundog99 Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 The Pitman arm is certainly a very worn ,The curve bit going to the ball gets is strength by being a forged part and should not be welded.The cup should be case hardened, as it also very worn and is now useless;there should be another cup without a spring behind it (and has probably not been removed since new) it is probably rusted in;try putting a small screw driver into the cup's hole and wiggling it out; it will be even more worn.I don't think I am exaggerating by saying I think These parts are Dangerously worn.The photograph is a new/ old stock Pittman arm for my 1927 2249 Senior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Gundog, I agree that the part is not worth risking on a car. As you will know, there is a proposal to exclude older vehicles from the M.O.T testing requirement and views are divided on the subject but I would think that this would fail the test here, don't you? should it be up to owners to come to their own conclusions as to the safety of their cars? Quite a few I have spoken to think it would be o.k. but I am not at all happy about it. The point I really wanted to raise with you is with regard to your own car. Did you need to find a suitable replacement part and have you any suggestions how I might tackle a similar problem with my car. After all, we are not exactly falling over Dodge Brothers control arms here are we? Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gundog99 Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 I bought the arm on eBay from a chap in the USA, who had quit a lot of Dodge new/old stock;strangly I was the only bidder,but I did have to pay quit a lot for it.The arm on my car is not too bad for it's age,but as I imagine new/old stock Dodge pitman arms are very scarce, it had to be bought.I managed to buy a pair of good second hand cups still with all their case hardening. The original cups that had the spring supporting them were still in good condition, unlike the pair (not sprung) in the body of the drag link, which had no case Harding and had worn about 3/32 over size;this has has resulted in a small amount of wear on the arm just behind the ball,But thankfully not as bad as MickC5's arm.As far as I know no one is making now cups for Dodge at the moment.I am looking into have a small Bach made.I will fit the new arm when I have new cups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted March 26, 2012 Author Share Posted March 26, 2012 I was able to get both cups out of each end of the link. I'll have to start digging and see if there are any decent used and/or NOS parts out there. Just out of curiosity Ray, does MOT testing require a level of disassembly where something like this would be uncovered? As it is, the steering system (with a newly reburbished and adjusted steering gearbox) has almost no play (backlash, slop, etc), at the steering wheel despite the nasty wear on the pitman arm joint. The other thing I have trouble imagining with this issue is anything approaching a sudden failure. I would imagine steering would get progressively harder to turn the wheel as friction forces increase in the joint. It isn't like this is a constantly rotating bearing or joint; there isn't a whole lot of relative motion and as such, not much chance for significant heat build up. If this is true then I think seizing is not very likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyAus Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 I pulled apart the steering drag link rod joint where it connects to the steering gearbox sector arm to see what sort of condition things were in. Here are a few photos. The ball end on the sector arm does have noticeable wear and a sharp ridge created by the edge of the cup. Should I file this down? The cup photo shows some real metal on metal galling. Since I really have nothing to compare it to, I'm looking for input from anyone who has peeked at this. Was yours this worn? Is it still safe?Also, does anyone know why this abbreviated little grease fitting is used? It's the same thread as all of the others (1/8 PT x 28 tpi) but is shorter than a regular straight fitting (and has the screwdriver slot in the back for installation/removal). It there a tire clearance issue?The short grease fitting is made to clear the inside of the valance, particularly at the point where the valance is bolted to the front fender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted March 26, 2012 Author Share Posted March 26, 2012 Hi Tony, is the valance another name for the side apron? That is, the sheet metal that covers the side rails of the frame and also bolts to the front and rear fenders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 I dont know what MOT stands for, if you mean DOT, than wouldnt know what to look for and woudnt bother looking anyway I am sure, it would be more an issue with the drivers conciense if there was a problem that was maybe questionable to safety on the street. Quote.........there isn't a whole lot of relative motion and as such,.........This little ball takes a beating as a jerking motion back and forth contstantly as bumps in the road ect are hit, for me it would be a matter of worrying that it just shear off at some point and control of vehicle is lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gundog99 Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 The MOT is a european /UK thing, it's annual vehicle test to check the car is safe to drive on the road- with some allowance for the date of manufacture.I share Jason's concern about the ball shearing off. The steering system has a particular problem ,seemly small amounts of wear on individual parts, when multiplied by the number of parts from the steering box to the double steering arm become a much bigger and more serious problem.MickeC5, have you been able to remove two or four cups? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted March 26, 2012 Author Share Posted March 26, 2012 I was able to remove all 4 cups (2 from each end of drag link). I'm going to bring the pitman arm into work and have it inspected. We have a very sensitive fluid penetrant inspection. If the necked down area at the base of the ball is not cracked or worn, it is hard to imagine the snap off scanario as a probable failure mode (at least not much more probable than on a non-worn arm) . It seems to me the most likely thing to occur if the wear continues is the eventual loss of capture in the drag link (what is left of the ball pops out). Despite its nasty appearance it has a long way to go before that can happen. If the ball were to seize on the cups and one tried to overcome this by forcing the steering wheel, I suppose it is possible that failure could occur at this location. I have a hard time believing that such a seizure could happen all of a sudden though. I'm sure it would be preceeded by increased steering effort and looseness at the joint (if spring is properly adjusted).Anyone ever try a Model A pitman arm? In photos it looks very similar. I'm trying to get some dimensions to see if it's feasible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Drag link is very soft steel, I know what you mean by the capture and I have welded these tight and have had no problems just to let you know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyAus Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Hi Tony, is the valance another name for the side apron? That is, the sheet metal that covers the side rails of the frame and also bolts to the front and rear fenders? Yes. In the same way that a bonnet is a hood, a hood is a top, a boot is a trunk and a mudguard is a fender. Speak the same language? Moi? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 If we are talking semantics; let's not forget that 'stock' cars in the U.K. means something completely different to that in the U.S.A. Gundog is probably laughing his socks off about this !!??If you don't know what I am on about, I suggest you search the net for 'stock car racing' but sorry if you don't like what you find!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 (edited) Mike and Jason, M.O.T. refers to a government department which used to be called 'Ministry of Transport'. I won't bore you with all the history, but the Ministry is now called 'department'. It's just that everyone still refers to the 'Ministry' ie. 'M.O.T. test.I remember assisting my father in his garage when testing cars. He would check ball joints for wear by judicious use of a small pry bar. This would show up any inappropriate movement and although we were not allowed to dismantle stuff, the car would not pass if there was any doubt. Interestingly, there are complaints from some old car owners about the new generation of 'M.O.T.' testers who it seems are unfamiliar with spring loaded ball joints and have to be 'educated'! Edited March 26, 2012 by R.White (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted March 27, 2012 Author Share Posted March 27, 2012 Having owned and restored an MGB in earlier days I was familiar with most of the British terms for components but the MG didn't have splash aprons... I know the dashboard is a facia, spanner = wrench, darkness = Lucas, etc... I always liked the idea that electrical components have a certain amount of smoke built in to them. If you 'let the smoke out', that's why it won't work! hee hee! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 What you call a crank, we call a starting handle and what you call a windshield, we call a windscreen.Also, I know what we call our parking wardens. What do you call the rotten b.......rs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted March 28, 2012 Author Share Posted March 28, 2012 I really don't know if there is a nickname for them here Ray. If there is I image it is unprintable as well... As for speed traps, we refer to them as 'fund raisers'.. BTW, it doesn't appear the Model A pitman arm would be an easy swap since I'm told the square dimension is 15/16" (the DB's measured 7/8"). If it were the other way around, machining the square a bit bigger would have been the ticket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 What you call a crank, we call a starting handle and what you call a windshield, we call a windscreen.Also, I know what we call our parking wardens. What do you call the rotten b.......rs?Meter Maids ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted March 28, 2012 Author Share Posted March 28, 2012 Hold on, Snyders Ford reports that the square hole is 7/8"... I may give this a shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now