Guest Jim_Edwards Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Jim Edwards is right, that the hobby has never been for economically-challenged people. The problem is that, with rising costs and fixed or declining incomes, more of us are facing economic challenges that never used to bother us. This year I'll go from New Jersey to the 75th Anniversary HCCA tour in Colorado. That will cost about 400 gallons of gas, hauling a trailer. I do several big tours a year, though most aren't as distant as Colorado. The way things are going, next year I'll have to be more selective. I'm not pleading poverty - far from it - but I don't have a bottomless money pit, and there are limits. I suspect most of us are doing more of this kind of arithmetic these days; not quitting the hobby, but being more careful.Gil Fitzhugh, Morristown, NJBy this time next year gasoline prices may not even be an issue with respect to indulging in various driving events or going to various shows at a distance. We are in very reactionary times and it seems that the "Panic" button is often hit without forethought of the long term.With more and more greatly more fuel efficient vehicles being used for daily driving and commutes we have the very real prospect that oil refining for other purposes may well create a surplus of gasoline in our domestic market. As I have mentioned many times, gasoline was considered a waste disposal problem for refiners until the late 1950s. That could well happen again simply because it makes no difference what a barrel of oil is being refined to produce, refining will at minimum also produce roughly 17 gallons of gasoline out of that 44 gallon barrel. For all purposes, gasoline is a pain the the butt for refiners. So, the more oil that is refined for feed stocks for various other products such as fertilizers, paints, lubricants, plastics, building materials, and other fuels the more gasoline is produced. We aren't aren't likely to see a reduction in consumption of products made of plastics, various resins, lubricants or fertilizers which means as the population grows so will the amount of gasoline produced by virtue of consumption of other products.This is why no one should panic over the price of gasoline. If you want to panic consider what the effect of supposedly running out of oil will otherwise be. We aren't running out of oil and are not likely to during the lifetime of anyone living today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jim_Edwards Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 A C- Just a comment or two. IMO this hobby/passion if you will is not about the finished project it is about the journey getting there if one does. It's about the friends that you haven't met yet that share your interest in your hobby and also the friends that you have met that you share a common interest with. It's about discovering abilities in yourself that you may never have found otherwise. So if it's about get it done yesterday/tomorrow then I'd say to you or anyone for that matter you are in or back in the hobby for the wrong reasons. I like most all of us in this hobby are on a limited or in many cases very limited budget but what I can do today I'll do and what I can't afford will keep until I can. Meanwhile I'll enjoy the friends that I've made and the ones I haven't met yet as we talk about our HOBBY. That's my two coppers worth. MarkOne of the great things about this hobby is its many facets. We all have our particular niche and most certainly what we get enjoyment from doing or being involved with over time. For me personally, I enjoy working on my cars but the most enjoyment I get from the hobby is seeing those who are not in the hobby admiring my car(s) at the gas pump or when among a group of vehicles at a car show. I don't give a hang about judging competitions and probably never will. Those that "ooh and aah" when looking at a car are all that matters in my mind, and I consider them the best judges though their having nothing directly to do with the hobby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 So, the more oil that is refined for feed stocks for various other products such as fertilizers, paints, lubricants, plastics, building materials, and other fuels the more gasoline is produced. The feedstocks for every item mentioned here, and virtually everything else made from crude oil, are components in either gasoline or diesel fuel. What would otherwise be used as fuel is further refined and polymerized to make almost everything. The only exceptions are tars and heavy oils and a few intermediate grade products that make up a small minority of crude oil components. ( http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article3631.html )The market for crude oil is fuel driven. It would take an almost unbelievable shift in uses to change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bofusmosby Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 This has never been a hobby for the income challenged and never will be, even if one is blessed with a mechanical aptitude and has a garage full of tools.Ah great! NOW you tell me! When you look at the big picture, the old cars and the price of gas really isn't all that bad. If you were driving 20K plus miles a year, that would be different. BUT, when the price of oil goes up, EVERYTHING goes up. I went to the grocery store with the wife last weekend, and bought very little food, and the bill was over $80! I may be running on a shoe-string budget, but I am working a full-time job, and I still get a paycheck. It's everything else going up that will prevent me from enjoying this hobby like I would like. If I thought that I had to have very deep pockets for this hobby, then I doubt I would have ever gotten into it. When the bills come due, and they are payed, what is it that one has to cut back on? Ones hobby. I have to keep a roof over my head, and I have to eat. I do NOT have to drive my car across the state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jim_Edwards Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 The feedstocks for every item mentioned here, and virtually everything else made from crude oil, are components in either gasoline or diesel fuel. What would otherwise be used as fuel is further refined and polymerized to make almost everything. The only exceptions are tars and heavy oils and a few intermediate grade products that make up a small minority of crude oil components. ( http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article3631.html )The market for crude oil is fuel driven. It would take an almost unbelievable shift in uses to change that.Congratulations Dave you found a version of the universal politically correct chart that has little to do with reality. Reality being that all crude oil is not created equally and all refining processes can be manipulated for a different outcome. A good example starts with North Sea Brent crude which is very light compared with the heavy crude that comes from Saudi Arabia. The end result of refining either is quite different. That's all I'm going to say on the subject because I have no intention of getting off track from the nature of the thread to placate your political views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jim_Edwards Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Ah great! NOW you tell me! When you look at the big picture, the old cars and the price of gas really isn't all that bad. If you were driving 20K plus miles a year, that would be different. BUT, when the price of oil goes up, EVERYTHING goes up. I went to the grocery store with the wife last weekend, and bought very little food, and the bill was over $80! I may be running on a shoe-string budget, but I am working a full-time job, and I still get a paycheck. It's everything else going up that will prevent me from enjoying this hobby like I would like. If I thought that I had to have very deep pockets for this hobby, then I doubt I would have ever gotten into it. When the bills come due, and they are payed, what is it that one has to cut back on? Ones hobby. I have to keep a roof over my head, and I have to eat. I do NOT have to drive my car across the state.Jim it is probably safe to say that the great majority of us who enjoy the car hobby at any level initially never anticipated the amount of money we'd find ourselves spending. This hobby has a lot of emotion attached to it and there isn't but a few that don't let emotion guide them to one degree or another. But you are indeed right as the cost of all types of fuel goes up so does the price of virtually everything in our lives. If you want to see just how far our dependency on oil goes, I ran across this Blog entitled 100 Days without oil. I think you might find reading the entire thing quite interesting.100 Days Without Oil: DAY 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Maine Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 It costs me about $100 more to drive my '72 LTD to Hershey than it does my daily driver. In that context, it's not a big deal. I would not want to use it as a daily driver, though. My '71 Lesabre gets much worse mileage than the LTD so I don't use it any more than to keep the fluids circulating - maybe put 150-200 miles on it a year. Might cost me $100 in gas to do that. Again, not a big part of my annual budget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bofusmosby Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Interesting link you provided there Jim. It looks like I've got quite a bit of reading to do! Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Congratulations Dave you found a version of the universal politically correct chart that has little to do with reality. Reality being that all crude oil is not created equally and all refining processes can be manipulated for a different outcome. A good example starts with North Sea Brent crude which is very light compared with the heavy crude that comes from Saudi Arabia. The end result of refining either is quite different. That's all I'm going to say on the subject because I have no intention of getting off track from the nature of the thread to placate your political views.The chart is for the use of crude oil worldwide, deliberately chosen to avoid any bias by sourcing the information from an investment perspective. Therefore it represents the average fate of an average barrel worldwide. There's nothing "political" about that in any sense, although that is a good way to dismiss facts as irrelevant when they don't fit one's premise. It's a simple fact that oil fractions used as petrochemical feedstocks, although chemically nothing more than components of the oil used as fuel, amount to about 2% of all the oil extracted worldwide. They do not drive the demand for crude in any sense. Fuels eventually burnt for their energy content, more than 1/2 of which is gasoline, comprise more than 80% of crude oil consumption. Reducing the consumption of oil fuels such that those two fractions (petrochemical uses and fuels) have even equal influence is effectively impossible.Gasoline, particularly pure gasoline without ethanol, is destined to become increasingly expensive for years to come, until it simply is no longer commonly available. It's a dwindling commodity in demand, much like the antique cars that use it and are also increasing in value for the same reason. It's just part of the equation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willy Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Okay, I COULD have taken up golfing, bowling, car racing, or any number of sports men are keen on. They all cost something every time you do them. Instead of that, I buy a piece for my present car, work on it, and feel satisfied I spent my money well. My wife is happy, because I'm always where she can find me, and she gets to benefit from my hobby. The nice thing is, after I've finished (if that day ever comes), I'll still have something to show for the money I spent over all those years. Three years ago, I needed all new glass for my 1952 Dodge pickup, and while it was sitting in my driveway, I went in, got some red tractor paint, went out, and painted it. One small run was all I got, and everyone complimented me on the paint job. That's probably what I'll do with my 1918 DB Touring before I take it out and start driving it. I live in Montana, where rocks fly on the highways constantly, making an expensive paint job unreasonable. Besides, how hard can it be to paint black? (Snicker) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Hey, no problem. Just do what a customer of ours used to do. A very organized man he would budget and schedule everything including his exercise and his hobby, which happily for us was antique cars. He regularly budgeted $100K/year for his hobby. We finally stopped working for him only because he began expecting about $2 in work for every $ he actually paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandy Dave Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Taking in account that this is not a "poor mans" hobbie. Much of this hobbie is fueled by the middle, and upper Middle class. When the middle, and upper middle class, tell me that their income has been reduced by 2/3rds of what it was before this economy that we are in now. It has to be a strain on what they can safley afford to do. I go to the grocery store and buy a big can of peanuts. Not all that long ago that can of peanuts was $4.99. Now it is 9.98. double what it was several years ago. I guess I'm am now working for peanuts like much of the rest of the country because the dollar has weakend and my income has not changed. Dandy Dave! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bofusmosby Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 It has to be a strain on what they can safley afford to do.Amen. It was difficult for me to come up with (and justify) spending the $130 for the fuel pump to be rebuilt on my Pontiac. I just got the wife's auto insurance bill yesterday, and for 6 months, it's almost $700! Ouch!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jim_Edwards Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) Gasoline, particularly pure gasoline without ethanol, is destined to become increasingly expensive for years to come, until it simply is no longer commonly available. It's a dwindling commodity in demand, much like the antique cars that use it and are also increasing in value for the same reason. It's just part of the equation.Wrong, wrong, wrong! Wrong unless someone figures out a way to eliminate gasoline being a bi-product of refining for every thing else. The world is not going to stop using tires made from synthetic rubber, not going to stop painting their houses, not going to stop using fiberglass materials bonded with resins, not going to stop paving roads with asphalt, lubricating anything and everything, or fertilizing crops, ships won't for years to come be powered by other than diesel engines, nor aircraft fueled with other than Jet A or Kerosene. Wind Farms can't be built without oil, Solar panels can't be built without oil, and on and on. Ergo, gasoline returns to being a waste disposal problem and becomes significantly less costly with or without Ethanol being added to it at the point of distribution. FYI, Ethanol is added to fuels at the time gasoline without it is pumped into trucks for delivery to retail outlets it is not added at refineries.Even if every newly produced surface vehicle on the planet were to be power by LNG, CNG, or some form of electrical propulsion there will still be gasoline and it will be cheaper simply due to volume demand being less and becoming a waste disposal problem again. I don't think we want to see anyone flaring it off as was commonly done in times before 1960, nor do we want to see it being injected into disposal wells. Edited March 2, 2012 by Jim_Edwards (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Ok, we're getting a little off topic here, guys!Back to the subject at hand!!!!Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jim_Edwards Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Ok, we're getting a little off topic here, guys!Back to the subject at hand!!!!WayneWayne the cost of gasoline is certainly a significant aspect to be considered with respect to the hobby. The only thing I failed to point out is the profits being made from gasoline today are in a round about way supporting lower prices of everything else that comes about from refining oil. Which is to say as the volume of gasoline being consumed declines and the profits disappear the cost of everything else produced from a barrel of oil will rise to make up the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Not all that long ago that can of peanuts was $4.99. Now it is 9.98. double what it was several years ago. Peanuts are a special case. Last year's drought in the southeast resulted in the worst peanut harvest in decades, and peanuts went from $450/ton to $1200/ton in one year. ( Peanut Butter Prices Rising | TheBlaze.com ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandy Dave Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Peanuts are a special case. Last year's drought in the southeast resulted in the worst peanut harvest in decades, and peanuts went from $450/ton to $1200/ton in one year. ( Peanut Butter Prices Rising | TheBlaze.com )So that is why it cost me more to go to a car show, sit by my car, eat peanuts and drink water. Maybe I should give up peanuts so I can buy at least two gallons of gas. Dandy Dave! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steve283 Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Dandy Dave can afford peanuts? must be one of them upper 1% fellas....lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Dandy Dave can afford peanuts? must be one of them upper 1% fellas....lolLast week I split a cashew with somebody! (Are we still on topic, Wayne? ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 (edited) Last week I split a cashew with somebody! (Are we still on topic, Wayne? )Dave, they tell me it takes lots of peanuts here in the south to afford this hobby, so I guess we are ok!PS, a few other "nuts" too, I understand! Edited March 3, 2012 by R W Burgess added nuts! (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandy Dave Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 (edited) Dandy Dave can afford peanuts? must be one of them upper 1% fellas....lolAnd I'll have you know I always buy the big cans. :D Dandy Dave! Edited March 3, 2012 by Dandy Dave (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jim_Edwards Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 And I'll have you know I always buy the big cans. :D Dandy Dave!How many Peanuts per mile are you getting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandy Dave Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 How many Peanuts per mile are you getting?I get to walk around a car show at least twice per can, unless it is Hershy. That show takes atleast 3 cans. Dandy Dave! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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