Dexos1 in the nailhead

[CheezeMan]

Has anyone looked into using the new GM Dexos1 oil in the nailhead?

After some reading on the net, I understand that there is a hydraulic property built into this new oil that is required for the lifters (VVT) to operate on the '11 engines.

I also recall some savvy Nailhead guys saying to put a bit of tranny fluid (hydraulic fluid) in the nailheads to quiet the lifters/etc.

Would there be any benefit to switching to dexos (GF-6) oil for the nailhead?

[RivNut]

With any flat tappet lifter and cam setup the main thing you should be concerned with is the amount of zinc (ZDDP) in the oil. Most modern engines are not of the flat tappet design. Google "zddp oil" and see what comes up. I know that along with a few other guys, we're using Mobil or Shell oil that is designed for diesel engines. The ppm (parts per milliion) of ZDDP in those oils is substantial. Without the zinc, new oils will allow the cams to "go flat."

Modern technology is not looking our for old car enthusiasts.

Ed

[Glenn McMahon]

Hi Ed,

Could you elaborate on the type and brand of oil that is best to use in a 64 425 nailhead?

Thanks,

Glenn

[RivNut]

I'd give you one answer, Larry, Moe, and Curly would each have something different as their choice. I honestly think the best way to choose an oil is to "Google" something like "best oil for flat tappet engines" and see what comes up.

I'm not trying to weasel out of anything, but you know best what your driving habits are, what the climate is where you live, and when you'll be driving the car.

In my '85 Riv (flat tappet Oldsmobile 307 V8) I was really impressed with the Shell Rotella T6 synthetic on my trip to PA and back last year. Rotella is a diesel oil. I know other guys who'll tell you reasons not to, make other suggestions, etc. Research what you think will be best for you.

Ed

[JZRIV]

A popular option is to use this ZDDPlus™ - ZDDP for Classic, Muscle Cars & More or any other name brand ZDDP additive to a modern spec motor oil. Most of us change oil once a year so buying a bottle of the additive is cheap insurance.

I was on the fence about the need for a zinc/phosphorus addtive for many months after the announcement manufacturers were reducing the zinc content but as more and more test results became available and engineers reported on it, I am convinced beyond any doubt you should use a diesel oil or the additive.

As far as the Dexos1 I imagine that oil is designed around the most modern engines/emmissions,etc. I wouldn't consider using it because there isn't enough info out yet on the application in old engines. If I was going to use a synthetic, I'd just use Mobil 1.

Edited June 10, 2011 by JZRIV (see edit history)

[Guest dcdpgh]

This can be a mind numbing topic, depending on how many hours you want to invest in reading countless articles and internet discusion forums like this one on the subject. The advice given here is sound - you need something other than modern oil in a flat tappet engine.

Zinc additives like ZDDPlus are good for enhancing a modern oil in your antique or pre 1986 motor, but I am also now starting to read about the potential chemical counteracting effects between the two. The theory is the zinc additive adds what you need, while the detergent properties in the modern oil "wash" it away before it has time to stick around and do it's job.

I am not a chemical engineer, and far from an expert on the subject, but my personnal opinion (and choice) is to use a motor oil that is designed and marketed for use in our older car's engines, and contains high zinc levels. Being the doubting type, I had a used oil analysis performed on my car's oil after last summer (I change the oil and filter once a year at the end of driving season and before going into winter hibernation). After 850 miles of use, the zinc level was still above 1100 ppm. I was convinced.

[RivNut]

Good post. I'm curious. What oil are you using.

I just returned from Wally-World where I bought a one gallon container and a one quart container of Rotella T6 for less than $30. That's less than the cheap oil service at the local Jiffy Lube.

Since I've been using the synthetic T6, the enigne in my Riv runs smoother and cooler than it ever has. After the first oil change, it was amazing the amount of old sludge the synthetic loosened up. The constant start up lifter tick I had lived with for years is gone as well. Even on the initial spring startup this year.

Now I'll start another opinion poll. I use the NAPA gold oil filters on my engines. They're made by WIX. What do you guys use. (Hopefully it's not a Fram. If you've done any research on oil filters, you'll know that Fram spends most of its money on advertising and very little on product.)

Ed

[CheezeMan]

Ed,

Thanks for the info. I did search as you suggest, and came up with a few interesting hits. The one I found most informative is at http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Corvair_oil.pdf.

I'm not an expert in oil (or much anything else)...

After reading this 32 page article, the take away is: Viscosity and oil type are extremely important to any engine, including ours.

The writer recommends that we carefully read the labels on the oil, and also look up the MSDS (which is usually necessary to figure out the base oil group type). Cheap base group type I oils may be good enough if the engine is to be rebuilt often (ex: racing engines) or traded before the warranty expires, but I think most of us have exactly the opposite objective-- to keep them running a very long time between rebuilds, so using an oil with a very high quality base oil is important.

Another good tidbit is that manufacturers frequently change their oil formulations. Therefore the oil that we put into the engine last year may have changed this year to one that is "bad" for the engine. Again read the labels carefully, each and every time you visit the store. I believe that the better oils for our engines are rated as CI-4/SL, based on this 2009 article. Avoid using CJ oils. Here is a quote from the article:

If you want the maximum valve train protection, look for an oil that is

certified CH-4/SL or CI-4/SL without CJ-4. If the CH-4 or CI-4 comes

before the SL, that is fine. Oils that are only SL certified have less antiwear additives.

I'll throw in this quote just to get a reaction from everyone who reads this post:

Shear strength of the base oil is more important than a few parts per million of ZDDP.

Synthetics will give the best protection, with Group II oils next. Try not to fall for the

group I oils. This is not always easy to identify.

Also, very carefully look at the labels for store brand oils. It may appear to be the same as a national brand on the label, but WalMart (or other brand) will dictate what goes into it. Therefore, a store brand may be completely different from the name brand that the packaging resembles.

[Guest dcdpgh]

Good post. I'm curious. What oil are you using.

Ed - as you stated in your earlier post, I too am reluctant to suggest brands, weight, or particulars regarding oil, but since you directly asked, I use Brad Penn High Performance Oil in my Riv. It is available in a variety of grades, and is a partial synthetic.

Just to expand the discussion fun, I also use NAPA Gold oil filters. I know many here (myself included) also frequent the V8 Buick forum, and the NAPA gold/Wix oil filters are a highly regarded disposable type oil filter. Being the purist that I am, I had used AC Delco filters for several years, but came to believe (rightly or wrongly) the quality of those filters are not what they once were. I concur with your assessment of Fram's reputation.

[RivNut]

Chuck,

Great info. If you're going to be in Branson, I'm going to call on you to deliver this information to the masses.

Ed

[Desmc14]

I am just reading this thread now.... here is an interesting article.

Engine Lubricants - Solving The Flat-Tappet Puzzle - Circle Track Magazine

[pyntre]

Brad Penn .... The Green Oil:)

[NTX5467]

For finding postings of what's in oil, from oil analysis reports, - Bob is the Oil Guy. "Virgin Oil Analysis" are posted there. From the front page, click on "Forums" and then you'll get to the complete list of forums. Scroll down to the "Virgin Oil Analysis" forum for the postings. Seems like there's already some Dexos1-compliant oils in there.

The Dexos1 GM oil spec supercedes the two prior specs in use. It's for factory-fill of gasoline motors worldwide. From ACDelco, it's a blended synthetic rather than a "normal" oil, yet almost all of the oils I've found at WalMart which are either Dexos1 marked or Dexos1-compliant are full synthetic oils. Dexos1 is rated "SN" and "GF-5", but all SN and GF-5 oils will meet Dexos1 specs.

As for oil filters, all Fram filters are not the same anymore. In fact, I found a YouTube video from Royal Purple about their new oil filter. It has metal internal construction . . . just like one of the higher-level Fram filters does, but not the more "consumer" filters Fram has.

Most of the newer "SM" and "SN" oils have zddp levels of approx 750ppm-800ppm. Most of the prior "SL Synthetic oils (which meet many European OEM approvals), as the prior Castrol 5W-40 oil for VW diesels and similar Mobil 1 synthetics, have approximately 1000ppm of zddp in them. In the SN oils, other anti-wear additives are being used to take the place of zddp, notably titanium (in some Castrol synthetics and also in Kendall GT semi-synthetics).

Somewhere, in the back of the Mobil 1 website, there's a list of their motor oil products with information on zddp levels and such. Personally, I concur that using Rotella T is a good choice, whether in 15W-40 or 5W-40 synthetic (I've used the 5W-40 myself).

There's a humongous amount of information in the - Bob is the Oil Guy website. Motor oil analysis plus oil filter information (which might be a little dated at this time, with all due respects). If ACDelco has an oil filter for a Buick Nailhead, I think that's what I'd be using, with all due respects. At least it's descended from the same family as the vehicle.

The other side of the situation is that as filter media has improved, even the lowly cardboard-guts Fram is a better filter than the best filter of the 1960s. What's amusing about the Royal Purple oil filter is that it looks like the HD Fram filter with a thicker-gauge case and purple paint on the outside . . . as the guts look identical.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[RivNut]

I did some more reading based on some of the comments from Bob the oil guy. One other oil that comes to light that will be easy for everyone to find is the Mobil 1 High Mileage synthetics. The 10w-40 has 1,000 ppm of the ZDDP in it. The nice thing about the Mobil 1 stuff is that it's available at Wally-world.

Ed

[CheezeMan]

I am just reading this thread now.... here is an interesting article.

Engine Lubricants - Solving The Flat-Tappet Puzzle - Circle Track Magazine

That was an interesting read. It echoed the need to not switch up oil brands or types often that I have read from many other places. It also mentions that racing oils may be a good replacement for current SM oils. However, it does say that if you plan not to use a Brad Penn or Joe Gibbs racing oil, then at least use the additive ZDDPlus in your current oil.

Great! Now I gots it. I'll just use racing oil in my classic that is only driven to shows and back, and my problems go away. Right?

Well, pouring more gasoline on this fire... http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief5%20-%20Racing%20Oil%20as%20a%20Replacement%20for%20SM%20Oil.pdf

Ok. So I cruise over to the Zddplus website that the circletrack article mentions. What do they say? Obviously they promote their product so they'll say anything to sell you their stuff... but there are a couple interesting papers on their site that caution about using racing oils in cars not being used on the track or even diesel oils in a gasoline engine. They come up with multiple reasons not to do this.

So, I'm not sure if the puzzle is solved. Maybe the only and best way to solve it is to switch to roller lifters and not worry any more about flat tappets.

[RivNut]

I've thought about roller lifters with a non performance cam just for longevity. As long as we're trying to reduce the friction, we might as well add the roller tipped rocker arms to the valve train. Both Tom Telesco and TA Performance sell these.

Ed

[NTX5467]

There are a multitude of posts about zddp in racing engines "out there". High lift camshafts with high pressure springs for high rpm race engines with non-OEM camshafts is one of the areas where accelerated camshaft wear happens.

Somewhere, I remember reading that if too much zddp is in the oil, it will degrade the detergency additives in the oil.

The original notification about zddp was several years ago in a Ford truck forum, where the CompetitionCams recommendation was "Shell Rotella T oil or synthetic motor oil". Rotella T, being a diesel oil with higher zddp in it, was a natural recommendation, but the other side of things is that synthetic oil has a tougher oil "layer" that makes it act slicker (or something to that effect) such that larger amounts of zddp are not needed.

Racing oils are designed to be changed pretty often, rather than after several thousand miles of driving. Hence, their typically weaker detergency levels than normal oils which are designed to run many thousands of miles between changes.

Shell Rotella T has ratings for both gasoline and diesel engines, although its main orientation is for diesels. Not unlike motor oils designed for gasoline engines but also which have diesel engine ratings. I would think that an oil spec'd and designed for diesel engines would have an easier life in a gasoline engine. The diesel oil will have to keep things clean while also keeping soot particles in suspension without harming anything. That would tell me that the diesel-rated oil will have a better detergency additive package in it.

If you read the various posts in the - Bob is the Oil Guy forums, there is NO guarantee which oil basestocks are used in particular oils, be they "dino" or synthetic. If the oil might be ester-based, then you can smell it (remember high school chemistry class--the "esters" had a sweet, banana-type smell, just as Motul oil does). An ester-based oil will have a higher degree of natural detergency due to that chemical composition.

CompCams now has their own motor oil, plus their own zddp additive. PLUS some camshafts which have a more-OEM-level parkerizing treatment on the camshaft lobes. With all due respect, I think if I was going to try to save a camshaft, I'd use something sold by a camshaft company (that would also be used to protect their own brand of camshafts).

Upgrading to a roller cam set-up can be easier now than in the past, especially for the more common late model engines which later came with roller cams from the factory.

The roller-tipped rocker arms should help the valve guides last much longer, as there would be MUCH LESS side-loading on the valve stems as the rocker arms pushed the valves open (and sideways at the same time). Why not go the full aluminum roller rocker arm route, if finances permit?

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[Guest carlbraun]

No matter what oil you buy keep buying it at Wal-Mart so that those FAT PIGS in Arkansas can keep importing their crap from China and continue to put the rest of america out of business.

I buy my oil at NAPA and pay another 50 cents a quart for it...at least I know that Wal-Mart isnt getting my money.

Oh...by the way...I use Mobil 1 with ZDDP. Used to use Brad Penn but my distributor just raised the price and often has to order it in.

Wake up America...Wal-Mart is putting YOUR JOB out of business.

Sam Walton is rolling over in his grave!

Rant over

[RivNut]

One quick question. How many of the parts that you buy at NAPA, Auto Zone, O'Reilly's, Advance Auto, Pep Boys, are NOT made in China? Or, an easier question. How many parts from those jobbers are made in America?

Personally, as for me, oil is the only thing I buy at Wally world. I don't shop there otherwise. I even go in through the service department to avoid the greeters and the rest of the folks you see on peopleofwalmart.com