Buick to offer hybrid without calling it a hybrid

[Reatta Man]

2012 Buick Lacross to feature 25 MPG city, 37 MPG highway rating

The 2012 Lacrosse will offer a 25% improvement over the 2011 model by using an electri-gas motor system they call eAssist.

[dship]

What's the deal with GM's hype on great gas mileage?? I get 22mpg city and 32mpg highway with my 1992 Buick Riviera on regular 10%e gas...

[Barney Eaton]

I am scratching my head also....... anyone with a 3800 V6 will tell you they can get 30 on the road.

I have been told that they had done everything they (GM) could to clean the exhaust of the 3800 and so a new generation of engines was required. Basic logic seems to dictate that if an engine get 30 mpg, it can't be generating much out the exhaust. Seems like double talk.

[Guest El_Diablo]

Not a big deal.

I'm considerring a new BMW with an average of 57 MPG. And thats NOT a hybrid. And its on the market NOW.

Frankfurt Preview: 2010 BMW 320d Efficient Dynamics Edition, 57.4 mpg (U.S.) — Autoblog Green

[Reatta Man]

Well, the reason it is a big deal is because they don't make the '92 Riv or the 3.8 V-6 any more. And, from what I understand, they wouldn't pass the upcoming emissions requirements.

So, if you want great mileage and want to drive a Buick, here is an option!

[dship]

I just wish Buick would produce a 2 door...with 45 years of driving and buying cars, I've never bought a 4 door car....never liked the looks of them.

[NTX5467]

The "deal" about the 2012 eAssist Lacrosse is that it is "EPA Certified MPG" rather than "real world" EPA. I suspect that few of the vehicles which had Buick 3800s in them had EPA Hwy mileage past 29mpg . . . although we know they'd do better than that in the kind of real world highway driving WE do.

The thing about EPA fuel economy is that it's been factored "down" several times. Each time, to "better reflect what people could reasonably expect to get" (or something like that). Kind of like if they got enough complaints about the posted MPG not being what people were really getting (without investigation or mentoring on how to best drive for higher mpg!!!!), they'd factor it downward. In reality, the EPA mileages I've gotten on rental vehicles (hwy mileage) has been pretty close to the posted mpg, if not better. In many cases, the mpg I've gotten on highway trips (or observed via the "Instant MPG" readout) can be at least 10% higher than current EPA listings. I have a local stretch of highway staked out that I use for my ultimate "Instant MPG" test . . . which might really surprise some people as to how good the mpg can be at 60mph.

Other than the emissions situation for the Buick 3800, there was a "Tale of Two Engines" situation. GM had both the Chevy 2.8/3.1/3.4 60 degree V-6 engine family and also the Buick 3800 90 degree V-6. There had to be a decision of which one to use for future models, plus costs to modernize it with VVT and such. From a packaging standpoint, the 60 degree V-6 can go more places as it's a narrower engine than a similar 90 degree architecture engine. That could have been a deciding factor in itself.

Through the Reatta years of Buick, the Buick V-6 saw a LOT of development money bestowed upon it. New heads to better retarget the fuel injectors, for example. Many internal differences to get weight out of the reciprocating mass, too, other than just adding the balance shaft. End result was the Buick 3800 that is very well-loved by Buick owners and enthusiasts. My suspicion is that the cylinder heads would need more work and it was not possible to get the desired results without something totally different (and more expensive) than the "High Value" orientation.

In naturally-aspirated form, the Buick 3800 seemed to waver between 190-210 horsepower, depending upon model year and whether the exhaust system was single outlet or dual outlet (Pontiac Grand Prix). I suspect that the last revisions to the cylinder heads might have maxed them out as to potential for future power increases. There were also suspicions that the 3800SC motor was highly torque-managed due to weaknesses of the 4T60E transaxle. I remember reading that Lutz wanted 300 horsepower from it, but had to settle for 280 (possible warranty claim issues). Yet, when the LS1 V-8s went into the same vehicle, it was rated at about 305 horsepower with the Pontiac Grand Prix GXP getting a 4T65E transaxle as the Chevy SS V-8 (same power) got the 4T60E version . . . according to the charts in GMPowertrain.com. As good as the 3800SC motor might have been, there were long-term durability issues with the superchargers (one reason that Pontiac Grand Prix GTPs got traded-in by "normal customers"). So, the V-8 might have had similar costs with similar horsepower.

So, when it came time to budget money for the "High Value" V-6, the Chevy tooling might have been newer (or more recently updated for the 3.5L V-6 Malibu) and the Buick's tooling might have been at the end of its life cycle. So the Chevy 3.5L V-6 received new cylinder heads as a part of its update for the Malibu (and Impala). At this time, too, Chevy had already been working on "cam-in-block" VVT, so THAT development money was already in place. From what they told us at the dealer training on the Malibu, the Vortec 3.5L V-6 provided six cylinder power at 4 cylinder fuel economy . . . which I verified MANY times, clocking high 30s highway mpg on several Malibus back then. Then came the Chevy V-6 with a longer stroke for 3.9L displacement--this engine debuted at about 250 horsepower, but less torque than the 3800SC motor, but has now diminished to the (about) 235 horsepower ratings (which are "SAE Certified") whether in the 2010 Lucerne or an Impala sedan. Be that as it may!

There's NO DOUBT that the Buick 3.8L and 3800 V-6 variants were great engines which gave great performance in the many GM vehicles (especially the more recent fwd cars and Chevy Camaro/Pontiac Firebird models!). It saw a great deal of high-tech equipment being added in the later 1980s for the then-new line of Buick and Oldsmobile fwd C & H platform cars, which when standardized across those vehicle lines, help reinforce the reliability reputations of GM vehicles at a time that many had doubts. Several years later, more development money was spent to upgrade it again. In the earlier tuned-port induction engines, they had enough high-tech stuff on them to be "World Class" in nature AND work very well. Seems like the later Buick 3800 V-6 was a "Ward's Best Engines" award recipient for many years, too!!!

Unfortunately, it seems that the Chevy-architecture engine family had more "plusses" than its Buick-architecture associate when it came time to pare the number of unique engine families from the GMPowertrain lineup. I suspect the Buick 3800 was pretty much at the end of its developmental capabilities, with all due respect.

Interesting thing is that in the 1990s, California bound Camaros and Firebirds automatically got the Buick 3800 V-6 as the only V-6 in that would pass CA emissions in that platform, although the Chevy V-6 could only be made to meet Federal emissions for those few years. Then, a car magazine snagged one of the CA-emissions Camaro V-6s and were amazed as how well the Buick V-6 performed in that car. That got to be the "next incognito hot rod" of sorts, posting 0-60 times that would shame many V-8 performance cars from the 1960s AND get 30mpg on the highway. One of the few situations where what went to CA performed better than the Federal version! An aftermarket supercharger kit would boost it to 300 horsepower--the F-body had transmissions and rear axles that would tolerate such things. Interesting thing was that the fwd cars which had the Buick 3800s would have very similar acceleration performances as the F-bodies did . . . just that few seemed to notice as these cars laid rubber from the wrong set of tires.

Just some thoughts . . .

NTX5467

Edited November 18, 2010 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[NTX5467]

What the "eAssist" might well be is a variation of the existing "Two Mode Hybrid" transmission in the light truck chassis vehicles, but for fwd. OR "electric assist" for higher-power situations which the normal gas motor (due to its smaller size and lesser horsepower output) couldn't otherwise produce.

Earlier "electric assist" situation vehicles would include the 1999 Dodge Charger concept, with two 50 horsepower electric motors, one at each of the front wheels, which then allowed the smaller 2.7L V-6 to produce better cruise fuel economy (from my own observations, there is NO advantage to having the Chrysler 2.7L V-6 rather than the larger and more powerful 3.5L V-6 . . . as to highway mpg) AND run on CNG.

As I understand it, the "Two Mode Hybrid" uses electric power for low speed driving, then the gasoline motor is used for higher speeds, with the "electric assist" mode kicking in under higher power situations. Battery power would be used for the low speed and high power "modes". So, if eAssist is a situation where a smaller (think EcoTec 4 cylinder) engine is the normal propulsion source, the transaxle could contain the "assist motor" for the bursts of higher power needed in some driving situations. THIS is why it's "not a hybrid" per se, although it could still use regenerative braking and such.

Just some thougths,

NTX5467

[Dave@Moon]

Well, the reason it is a big deal is because they don't make the '92 Riv or the 3.8 V-6 any more. And, from what I understand, they wouldn't pass the upcoming emissions requirements.

So, if you want great mileage and want to drive a Buick, here is an option!

The emission standards that need to be met are greenhouse gas emissions, which are directly related to fuel consumption. It's really the ramping up of Corporate Average Fuel Economy standards that matter. Between 2010 and 2016 C.A.F.E. has to increase 40% for each manufacturer. The 25% improvement in LaCrosse mileage is really just a beginning

That said, this is great news. Ford has had the jump on GM for years in this field now (to say nothing of Toyota's obvious lead on everyone in this area), and this is a good start. The hybrid voltage is pretty low (115V) compared to Ford/Honda/Toyota/Nissan/Hyundai, so I suspect that there's more coming.:cool:

The $3500.00 (at most*) price for this system is quite reasonable for a first time system as well.

*--@$30K vs. $26.2K for a base LaCrosse. It's unclear so far what additional equipment the hybrid version comes with that are options on the base LaCrosse.

[Larry Schramm]

You might want to think of the current Malibu/Aura/Vue hybrid systems. They use a motor/generator to start the engine in stop & go traffic. Kind of like a golf cart. I am guessing that is what they are going to use on the LaCrosse, but do not know.

This system on the Malibu/Aura/Vue is completely different from the full size trucks that have electric motors in the transmission.

[NTX5467]

The system on the Malibu is not quite a "full hybrid", which the GM information I've seen tends to support.

There are some "quirks" in the Malibu system, too. It will NOT go into the hybrid mode if the batteries are too cold or too hot (there is a separate system to keep them at the desired temperature). Plus no regenerative braking.

The first GM "hybrid" pickups had the engine-stop-at-red-light function. This upped the city fuel economy . . . except . . . when the engine stopped, so did the a/c compressor . . . which is not too swoft in TX in July (or similar temperatures elsewhere) . . . which is why there was a switch for that function.

On regenerative braking . . . GM put out a specific TSB on regenerative braking on the current SUV Hybrid models . . . with instructions of how the vehicles were designed to be driven to best use the regenerative function. A key item was the LENGTH of brake application rather than INTENSITY of application. Stopping normally (i.e., normal deceleration) would allow for the maximizing of the regenerative braking function. Stopping quickly and intensely, minimized the regenerative braking time and would directly result in poorer fuel economy.

One thing about plug-in hybrids and similar systems which wholely or partially rely upon charging from "the grid" . . . typically the electricity generated for "the grid" comes from fossil fuels, so going electric might be pollution-free at the point-of-use of the vehicle, but not specifically from where the electricity was generated (unless it came exclusively from wind or solar). Hence, CO2 still happens . . . just NOT in your backyard as the power plants are usually many miles away. Still, though, CO2 generation in more population-intense areas can decrease.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Reatta Man]

I think the really crucial step this new Buick means is less and less dependance on foreign oil.

Whether or not it is in short supply (Dave and I disagree STRONGLY on this point) the fact is, no one can argue the cost of oil is almost totally out of our control, and it has a HUGE impact on our economy, our stock market and our job market.

If you doubt the value of these cars, just follow the news of the LA Auto Show on any of the auto Web sites or the LA Times. Virtually everyone is coming out with more and more hybrids, and Nissan will soon have thousands of Leafs on the market. Tesla will be bringing new models to market and with wider distribution due to their arrangement with Toyota.

GM sees the future, and it is in giving buyers a choice of gas, a little gas or no gas usage, probably much like the horsepower wars of the 1960s. And, this is great news for Buick, GM and millions of workers depending on a strong auto market, no matter which brand you prefer.

So, good news for Buick, good news for potential Buick or hybrid owners since they will now have another model to consider, and bad news for the American-haters in the Middle East (and Venezuala)!

[Dave@Moon]

Virtually everyone is coming out with more and more hybrids, and Nissan will soon have thousands of Leafs on the market.

CEO/President of Nissan/Renault Charles Ghosn, this afternoon on CNN:

By the end of this decade I expect that 100% electric cars like this one (the Nissan Leaf in which he was being interviewed) will constitute 10% of the total car market.

Edited November 20, 2010 by Dave@Moon
added name (see edit history)

[Larry Schramm]

I was the engineer for the high voltage cables on the Chevrolet Volt and others before I retired. If it was orange I probably did it on the GM hybrids. I was Larry the cable guy.

Edited November 20, 2010 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[Reatta Man]

Just curious, Larry. How was orange decided on as the color for high voltage cables? Was it because it is close to red?

[Larry Schramm]

It is an SAE standard. It is like SIR wiring is identified with Yellow. Anything over 30(25?) volts AC or 60 volts DC is considered high voltage and must be identified with orange.

SAE standard J1127 defines low/high voltage in vehicles and J1673 defines the orange color. Typically the requirements stated the color need to be traffic cone orange.

Look at this document including page 6 for additional information.

http://www.pdftop.com/view/aHR0cDovL2F2dC5pbmVsLmdvdi9wZGYvYWlycG9ydC9lZ3NlX2VsZWN0cmljX2FpcmNyYWZ0X3B1c2hiYWNrX3RyYWN0b3Jfc3BlY2lmaWNhdGlvbl8yMDA4LnBkZg==

Edited November 20, 2010 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[John_Maine]

The 3800 in my '04 Grand Prix would routinely deliver over 30 mpg on the highway if I stayed at 65. I drove it to Florida twice, Myrtle Beach once and Hershey three times, getting as much as 32.7 mpg. I also drove my uncle's '90 LeSabre Custom 3800 to Florida and averaged 29.1 mpg for the trip. Although I've mostly owned Fords, I never got that kind of mileage out of one of their 6s. In fact, I had a 4 cyl. Mercury Topaz that I drove 100 miles a day at 50-55 mph and it barely delivered 24 mpg. The 3800 was a great engine.

[Larry Schramm]

The 3800 engine was the best!!!

[NTX5467]

Larry, I looked at the MASSIVE amount of wiring and control hardware on the Volt in the GM parts database this morning at work. I suspect that there's at least as much weight in the wiring and control mechanisms as there is in the basic body shell itself! And that "t-shape" battery array is no lightweight either. The engine has its own cooling system (including the a/c condensor) and the battery pack has its own cooling system too.

From what I saw today, with all of the electronics on the vehicle, the seemingly-high MSRP looks really reasonable . . . just that all of this stuff is hidden from plain-open view.

Better living through electro-chemistry!

Enjoy!

NTX5467