"Journey With Olds"

[autonut]

Did "Journey With Olds" ever come out with a 10 or 20 year cumulative article index? It would sure make the magazines more valuable to save, and perhaps use for reference.

Just Me/Lee

[OldsDoug]

No index that I know of. When I was an officer in a local chapter here, that was one of the projects that I wanted to have the group take on, but we never really got it off the ground.

[Guest]

Did "Journey With Olds" ever come out with a 10 or 20 year cumulative article index? It would sure make the magazines more valuable to save, and perhaps use for reference.

Just Me/Lee

Quick question. What is in the magazine to save?, and what would you use for reference? I have been chucking them because unlike Pontiac Oakland Clubs Smoke Signals magazine there are no tech articles, no "how to" articles, no legislative affairs articles, no trivia questions.

Just wondering what you find interesting? Possibly "From my point of view" ? or "Frontwheeling" ? or " Runnin'Boards" ?

Don

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

Quick question. What is in the magazine to save?, and what would you use for reference? I have been chucking them because unlike Pontiac Oakland Clubs Smoke Signals magazine there are no tech articles, no "how to" articles, no legislative affairs articles, no trivia questions.

Just wondering what you find interesting? Possibly "From my point of view" ? or "Frontwheeling" ? or " Runnin'Boards" ?

Don

You said what I wanted to say a couple of days ago and didn't because I figured someone would label me a smart a$$. Now we'll both probably get flamed by someone but the truth is "Journey with Olds" contains little worth saving for future reference. Of course the question would have to be who among the membership is capable of writing on some of the topics you mention or is willing to commit the time and capable of editing their writings to space available?

Not that it is of any solace, but this is not the only car club with an "eye candy" monthly publication with little substance. It has to be one heck of a task to get any monthly publication together in time to send to the printer and I'm sure all help might be appreciated. However, unless one asks for help or for article submission they'll never get it.

I can think of several topic areas that could be touched upon and of benefit to those who may be first time vintage/collector car owners or even timely reminders for old timers of good maintenance practices, etc.

Jim

Edited October 25, 2010 by Jim_Edwards
additional info (see edit history)

[rocketraider]

Having been an "insider" to JWO's publication for a while, I can say that one person nearly destroyed it. After that individual, no one wanted to write anything for it anymore- including myself.

My trouble with Smoke Signals is that it has become almost exclusively a mouthpiece for the Pontiac drag racing and muscle car community. Little to no coverage or interest for big cars, and I know several people who have sent in articles on their 50s and 60s fullsize Pontiacs and were told point blank that the articles did not cover cars the magazine editorship was looking for.

Between that and the finagling they allow and encourage on data plates, I didn't feel totally comfortable with POCI any more. So my solution was non-renewal.

[Guest]

Hi Jim, I see your a big Gen. 1 fan! One of my friends used to run in Top fuel back in 60 with a bored & stroked 394.

Since this is a AACA forum I better keep things strictly stock.

I have been a little disappointed with OCA and POCI for some time now because they have both lost sight of their mission statement which in OCA's case is "dedicated to the preservation and heritage of products from Olds division of GM". A fellow Olds guy who I met this past May at the Pacific Zone meet had just completed a 48 Olds 98 drop top and done very nice with Olds last straight eight. When I recieved the August issue of Journey with Olds I saw the cover with a beautiful 48-98 convertible and thought I would be looking at another straight eight. The very brief article starts out by saying it had been RESTORED by so & so. Then goes on to say I did some options. Well in my book stuffing a Gen2 short deck 403 and a turbo 400, with power windows, tilt wheel, cruise control, power trunk release, power top, custom interior, and then goes on to say I added some options like vintage heat/air, 53 Cadillac wire wheels, and dual exhaust just dosen't fit preservation or restored. What a disappointment to see many cars in that magazine done even worse like the 57 post a few pages later. Those wheels on the 57 made it look like a hot wheels car. Eighteen inch front and twenty inch rears made the car look like it had been on steroids..... so much for the words preservation.

This leads me to the point of letting my membership go in both clubs.

Don

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

Having been an "insider" to JWO's publication for a while, I can say that one person nearly destroyed it. After that individual, no one wanted to write anything for it anymore- including myself.

My trouble with Smoke Signals is that it has become almost exclusively a mouthpiece for the Pontiac drag racing and muscle car community. Little to no coverage or interest for big cars, and I know several people who have sent in articles on their 50s and 60s fullsize Pontiacs and were told point blank that the articles did not cover cars the magazine editorship was looking for.

Between that and the finagling they allow and encourage on data plates, I didn't feel totally comfortable with POCI any more. So my solution was non-renewal.

The scenario you express is sadly widespread within the hobby and I personally feel it is killing the camaraderie that was once more common. I once belonged to several clubs and chose to drop out over many of the same issues you expressed. Years ago I got my panties all in a wad over the AACA's definition of what constituted being a "Classic." But I also had issues with the hot rod crowd that saw nothing wrong with totally butchering cars that were of a unique nature.

I'm perhaps a bit weird as in some respects I believe in the 100% purist approach in terms of preservation of certain vehicles (note the word certain). On the other hand I've always had an affinity for hot rods and street customs. Somewhere there is a middle ground that should be equally appreciated by both sides.

We should all realize and accept the fact that "Speed" and "racing" have always been a part of the world of automotive enthusiasts. Then there is the "artistic" side of the automotive world expressed in body designs and interior appointments. The latter most particularly being expressed after the fact so to speak by the Street Customs crowd. There is not a darn one of us that haven't seen one or more Street Customs we thought to be neat or at least eye catching.

My point being we would all do well to embrace the entire hobby as opposed to being critical of those who may have a different view of its nature than our own. Getting back to that word "Certain." Few models within almost any make could be considered as museum candidates. Examples yes, but not necessarily worthy of making a big deal of over restoration accuracy down to paint primer being the same as factory original. This is an expensive hobby by any conceivable definition and no one should be made to feel an outsider because they can't afford to restore something over 25 years old to showroom appearance. Frankly, most of the paint jobs being applied to the cars of 25+ years ago today fail to give those cars an original appearance, but that is another story. But then no one should be made to feel an outsider because they are motor heads into speed, racing, and customizing. As I have frequently chosen to advise people who might complain about what I might have done to a car, "It's my S.O.B. and I'll do to it what I feel makes me happy."

I have one now 52 year old non Oldsmobile vehicle that personifies that statement. If one looks at it sitting in the driveway, it looks like a 100% original car. Even the interior has that nice 100% original appearance. Raise the hood and nothing unusual from original would be noted. Look at the blue print on the engine and things are not at all original. Once producing an advertised 330 bhp the puppy has been bored, stroked, and had its entire valve train altered to the point it now produces some 650 hp, quite evident once the engine is fired up, though it isn't a lopper that rocks from side to side at idle.

As I have come to accept my own somewhat conflicted concepts of the hobby we all need to resolve them within clubs rather than be at war with one another. However, I do draw the line on putting a set of those ridiculous 22" cast wheels on anything. If one wants to ride in something that looked like a damn Conestoga Wagon, get one along with a team of mules.

Jim

[Guest]

Jim, I understand exactly how you feel, and I have two Pontiac's that are built for Grand Touring or sometimes for Time Test. Like your cars they appear stock and the parts that are different come (for the most part) from the GM or Pontiac parts bin and no one except the numbers chasers or real experts would know the discrepancies. To the person on the street the cars look like they were made as the factory intended. My Olds is completely stock even down to it's original paint.

My problem is with the clubs. The clubs need to change their mission statement to reflect the kind of cars their owners have. I'm also into Volkswagen. In 1977 or so I joined Vintage Volkswagen club of America. The club was originally formed because people with stock cars had no place to go as far as comraderie. There were plenty of shows, but the theme was always modified or customes and a ton of people just didn't like in their words "purest". So this club was formed for the "purest" to promote credibility for the marque. Well fast forward to 2010 and look at what has happened to that club. If you look at the chapter in my area you will find 80+% of the cars are custom. In plain words the club was hijacked, and they completly ignore the mission statement. My guess is the main reasion they hijacked the club was to get insurance for the car shows. Now there is no where to go again. POCI has done a pretty good job with doing this too as you have noted. OCA does have a ace in the whole though. If you look at the catagories for show classes modified cars are in a very narrow band which is good for the stock guys, and I think possibly it was put there to help advance the stock cause.

Anyroad the above ststement is pretty much how and why I came to AACA

Don

Edited October 31, 2010 by helfen (see edit history)

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

Hi Jim, I see your a big Gen. 1 fan! One of my friends used to run in Top fuel back in 60 with a bored & stroked 394.

Since this is a AACA forum I better keep things strictly stock.

I have been a little disappointed with OCA and POCI for some time now because they have both lost sight of their mission statement which in OCA's case is "dedicated to the preservation and heritage of products from Olds division of GM". A fellow Olds guy who I met this past May at the Pacific Zone meet had just completed a 48 Olds 98 drop top and done very nice with Olds last straight eight. When I recieved the August issue of Journey with Olds I saw the cover with a beautiful 48-98 convertible and thought I would be looking at another straight eight. The very brief article starts out by saying it had been RESTORED by so & so. Then goes on to say I did some options. Well in my book stuffing a Gen2 short deck 403 and a turbo 400, with power windows, tilt wheel, cruise control, power trunk release, power top, custom interior, and then goes on to say I added some options like vintage heat/air, 53 Cadillac wire wheels, and dual exhaust just dosen't fit preservation or restored. What a disappointment to see many cars in that magazine done even worse like the 57 post a few pages later. Those wheels on the 57 made it look like a hot wheels car. Eighteen inch front and twenty inch rears made the car look like it had been on steroids..... so much for the words preservation.

This leads me to the point of letting my membership go in both clubs.

Don

A bit late with the following thanks to issues with internet connection.

Yes, I'm pretty much a fan of the generation of engines that culminated in the 394. It's a thing that goes back to my high school years in the 1950's. A friend and his Father had a pair of '32 Ford coupes, one 3 window and one 5 window, powered by highly modified Olds engines that began life as 317's. One coupe sported a Hildebrandt super charger and the other Offenhauser log manifolds with eight Stromberg 97's. Both were connected to '37 LaSalle transmissions. As was extolled in the song "Hot Rod Lincoln," "Man what a ride!"

I suppose there could be many perceptions of what "preservation" is when applied to automobiles, and we all may have a variation of what represents preservation ranging from maintaining or restoring to exactly what a vehicles was as it rolled off the line to vaguely preserving the look. I personally have always been of the opinion most clubs started out as being somewhat snooty in their perceptions of preservation. I hold the majority of vintage automobile enthusiasts are not financially in a position to afford restoring something to what might be considered a museum piece. I also hold that most vintage car owners enjoy showing off whatever they have at local car shows and weekly cruise-ins to burger joints. Let's be realistic one cannot put anything on the road and expect it to remain a pristine example of whatever it may be. We must also be realistic and accept the fact that few 100% original pre 1954-55 cars have any business co-mingling with traffic on metro area freeways today. Simply is not safe for a variety of reasons. Most were not all that safe in their day on two lane highways with much lower speed limits. I cringe today every time I think of the experience of taking a friends brand new 1960 Ford Starliner with a 430 cubic inch Lincoln engine built by 1950's Ford sponsored car builder Bill Strope to over 165 mph on a typical two lane highway of the times. I especially cringe when I consider the nature of the tires, brakes, and suspension systems of the time.

It has disturbed me for years that there has been a tendency for restorations to be expected which are far beyond what given vehicles actually were when they rolled off the assembly line. Guess what, none were even remotely perfect regardless of who produced them, where they were produced, or when they were produced. How this trend evolved I'm not sure, but I do know it is counter productive for the attracting and keeping enthusiasts in clubs or even the general hobby itself. Every stinking brand club I have ever belonged to seemingly has a constant turmoil over point judgings and invariably every year a number of people get their noses all bent out of shape over them. What's the beneficial point of such an activity? When a hobby group/club stops being fun for everyone involved it has pretty much reached the point of uselessness in every respect.

Personally, I wouldn't drop a modern V8 and automatic transmission into any car originally designed for an in-line six or eight, but not for the reasons of simply keeping such a car original. The real reasons are nothing is going to fit right without a lot of alteration to every aspect of the car with exception of the outside sheet metal. The results of such swaps will more than likely turnout as being a unsafe operational disaster. There are some models of some cars that should never be anything beyond what they were. I personally think a '62 Starfire is a very good example. Why jack around with something that in all aspects was as near perfect as a car could be in 1962 and remains one of the most attractive high performance vehicles ever put on the road. I get upset every time I see one that is not 100% original.

And for those who eschew the fact brand clubs have attracted many of the racing crowd, who is to blame? It is the companies who created and maintained production of the Muscle cars and sponsored racing teams. So we can turn back the clock a bit to 1955 when GM's Cadillac Brand produced what I consider the first production built muscle car in the form of the Eldorado with a 365 c.i. engine sporting dual quad carburetors. From that point the horsepower race was seriously on with the Big Three. So in the end, we can thank GM, Ford, and Chrysler for developing high performance engines in the mid fifties to mid sixties and then bringing forth cars like the 442, GTO, Camaro, Mustang, Cougar, Baracuda, and Chargers; ultimately bringing racing into the Brand car clubs. I think that is okay because it is a part of Brand history and yes, preservation.

Jim

[poci1957]

I am not in the Olds club and have no take on their magazine, but I am in POCI and noticed rocketraider's mention of that club, so I am chiming in. IMO he is correct about the excessive drag racing interest and different "vibe" of the club now. The club magazine has always been good and has actually been "upgraded" over the last few years, but IMO too much of the "upgrade" has been to attract more drag racers, street rodders, and kustomizers to the club. I publicly raised this charge to the club president and most of the board on the club web site, and they indignantly denied it, citing the number of articles on original cars vs. modified, different eras, etc. Their argument was valid statistically, but the tone and feel of the magazine and photos easily show what the real focus is. They could then argue that they are just covering what the members want, and that may be true too. But in pushing modified cars they have run off lots of longtime members with prewar cars and flatheads and such. When I brought this up the president denied it too and implied I was making it up, which irritated me as I know the people who left and I know the old timers who remain are not happy and will eventually bail out if things do not improve, myself included.

BTW, I am not aware of the data plate finagling rocketraider mentions, I would like to hear more about that.

Anyway, Jim Edwards and my friend Helfen raised the dilemma of dealing with the various original vs modified factions and I agree this is a tough balancing act, probably the second biggest issue for old car clubs (#1 being the aging of our membership and lack of interest from young people). POCI has certainly not handled it well and in fact apparently denies there is a problem and thinks it is demographically not necessary to accomodate the older, quieter members or their older, quieter cars. I get the idea the Olds club is having a similar thing?

I mention age but it is in fact not an issue of age as much as attitude. At 42 I am probably younger than anyone reading this and in POCI the drag race and street rod guys are almost always older than me. Regardless of age, Jim's lengthy points on stock vs. modified seem to reflect what I also see in the hobby, but I now have a harder line on the modifications. Jim well states that he sees the purist side and the street rod side and there must be a middle ground somewhere. I agree, but can tell you that the purist side is dying everywhere except the AACA and is unlikely to revive except where a speculator thinks it is in his financial interest to keep a car all original.

I would advise the Olds club (and POCI) that it is not necessary to encourage modified cars, they should do whatever they can to promote preservation and restoration as the club standard and have sideline chapters for modified cars. Why do I say this? Because the natural tendency now of baby boomers and younger is to take the path of least resistance and modify. A lot of their reasons are perception and not full reality, but perception is all you need. No one needs any more encouragement to use a GM crate motor, Mustang II subframe or 4 wheel disc brakes on their 1956 Olds, because pure peer pressure makes these things attractive. Even if an owner feels a pang of guilt for tossing an original drivetrain or suspension he will have a groundswell of support from HAMB, cruise night participants, cable TV and other opinion makers. In fact, the guy who stays original is the one who will be questioned and scoffed at in the show parking lot. We do not need a club to officially encourage this practice or there will be no original cars left. Protect the original cars and interest in the modifieds will take care of itself. Todd C

[joe_padavano]

No one needs any more encouragement to use a GM crate motor, Mustang II subframe or 4 wheel disc brakes on their 1956 Olds, because pure peer pressure makes these things attractive.

In fact, the Olds community is pretty much AGAINST swapping the belly button "corporate" motors into our cars. Swapping a larger Olds motor is perfectly acceptable, but SBCs are frowned upon. On the other hand, suspension and brake upgrades are fine in my book, if the intent is to actually use the car and not make it a museum piece. No one can tell me that the 9" x 2" and 9" x 1.75" drum brakes on my 62 are adequate for modern driving - and I do plan to drive the car.

[poci1957]

In fact, the Olds community is pretty much AGAINST swapping the belly button "corporate" motors into our cars. Swapping a larger Olds motor is perfectly acceptable, but SBCs are frowned upon.

Well, don't worry Joe, that minor nod to tradition will fade soon enough. Some Pontiac guys still think that way (dare I say "purist" street rodders?) but they are outnumbered on the street. A few more years removed from the original production of Olds motors and no one will want to mess with their cost and inconvenience either. Pontiac people interested in a street rod just want to go easy and cheap and your guys will soon follow.

I just had a 1950s Pontiac owner say that rather than learn how to rebuild a Hydramatic (or even FIND someone to do it) he would rather remove the whole old drivetrain and replace it with 350 Chevy. Why? It is just the expected thing to do--why pay more to stay original if none of your friends respect authenticity? Might as well scrap that old stuff and go along with the crowd, don't waste your time. And how can you (in your mind) impress teenagers if you have steel wheels and hubcaps? Better buy the idiotic 20" wheels that a kid would like. Sorry, I cannot appreciate it anymore. Todd

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

In fact, the Olds community is pretty much AGAINST swapping the belly button "corporate" motors into our cars. Swapping a larger Olds motor is perfectly acceptable, but SBCs are frowned upon. On the other hand, suspension and brake upgrades are fine in my book, if the intent is to actually use the car and not make it a museum piece. No one can tell me that the 9" x 2" and 9" x 1.75" drum brakes on my 62 are adequate for modern driving - and I do plan to drive the car.

I think you are 100% correct in your assessment of drum brakes not providing adequate braking in most of today's driving situations. Most certainly inadequate in metro area freeway during peak traffic hours.

But then I've got to say some of the disc brake conversions people have done may also be equally unsafe, but for different reasons than most might imagine. In the most encompassing terms, just because the brakes are disc does not necessarily make them any better than the drum brakes originally on the car. If stopping distances are not significantly reduced or remain the same nothing but a bit of resistance to water fade out has been accomplished with a disc brake conversion.

[poci1957]

I think you are 100% correct in your assessment of drum brakes not providing adequate braking in most of today's driving situations. Most certainly inadequate in metro area freeway during peak traffic hours.

After my earlier rant I should chime in on this and agree that the disc brakes are a significant safety upgrade IF you have driving conditions like you do around the metro areas. I would also be afraid to drive a stock 1962 car in beltway traffic at 80 mph, just as I was in the mid 1980s in my 1963 Pontiac.

BUT here in the midwest where I live traffic conditions are not much different than they were then and the old Pontiacs do just fine. Given traffic conditions and the amount of driving an old car will get the upgrade is often not worth the modifications needed, especially if there is a master cylinder relocating problem as on 1950s Pontiacs. I have had Pontiac owners just dying to install front disc brakes but re-use the stock single master cylinder and that is just a waste of time, just as Jim says. Todd

[Guest]

After my earlier rant I should chime in on this and agree that the disc brakes are a significant safety upgrade IF you have driving conditions like you do around the metro areas. I would also be afraid to drive a stock 1962 car in beltway traffic at 80 mph, just as I was in the mid 1980s in my 1963 Pontiac.

BUT here in the midwest where I live traffic conditions are not much different than they were then and the old Pontiacs do just fine. Given traffic conditions and the amount of driving an old car will get the upgrade is often not worth the modifications needed, especially if there is a master cylinder relocating problem as on 1950s Pontiacs. I have had Pontiac owners just dying to install front disc brakes but re-use the stock single master cylinder and that is just a waste of time, just as Jim says. Todd

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Todd, Nice rant! You mean to tell me you wouldn't feel safe a 80mph with a set of eight lugs on a 63? Those finned aluminum drums with steel liners will consistantly haul down a 4,000 lb. Pontiac from over a 100mph time after time with no brake fade. Do you remember the Car & Driver road test between a 65 Catalina 421" 2+2 and the 330/GT 2+2 Ferrari at Bridgehampton road circuit?

The Catalina was using the stock drums with Heavy Duty metallic linings ( Factory Parts). Hansgen drove the big Pontiac through the whole course in forth gear (except for the 55mph hairpin). He drove with his rt foot on the throttle and his left foot on the brake, often cornering hard with the tri power wide open, jabbing the brake simultaneously- sometimes to steady the car, but more often to break the rear end loose to point it through turns and to scrub off speed. There was no brake fade on that car. That was the car that had the longest standing 0-60 time record of 3.9 seconds. While the Pontiac was faster than the Ferrari in a straight line the Ferrari was only less than half a second faster than the Pontiac around Bridgehampton.

I will tell you something else, The big Buicks had enormous aluminum finned drums with steel liners too and they are no problem at 100mph either.

The drum brake cars I have problems with were 57-58 Pontiac-Chevy and all the mid 60's - early 70's "A" body cars with drum brakes------ simply not enough room to dissipate heat due to going to a 14" wheel in 57 or the drum not large enough (plenty of swept area) to dissipate heat in the "A" body.

Don

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

After my earlier rant I should chime in on this and agree that the disc brakes are a significant safety upgrade IF you have driving conditions like you do around the metro areas. I would also be afraid to drive a stock 1962 car in beltway traffic at 80 mph, just as I was in the mid 1980s in my 1963 Pontiac.

BUT here in the midwest where I live traffic conditions are not much different than they were then and the old Pontiacs do just fine. Given traffic conditions and the amount of driving an old car will get the upgrade is often not worth the modifications needed, especially if there is a master cylinder relocating problem as on 1950s Pontiacs. I have had Pontiac owners just dying to install front disc brakes but re-use the stock single master cylinder and that is just a waste of time, just as Jim says. Todd

Now that is scary even with an adjustable proportioning valve in the scheme of things. My big gripe about disc brake conversions done on many cars is they are done without regard to adequate heat dissipation to prevent rotor heat from being transferred to the spindle which could result in grease running out of the wheel bearings, sooner or later causing their failure. Failure that will result in either the spindle being trashed out or the bearings seizing up and making the vehicle virtually uncontrollable. If a conversion fails to provide a "heat dam" to prevent those occurrences I think it is just flat dangerous. If a conversion involves using rotors intended for rear wheel application on the front of a vehicle there is a very good chance there is no heat dam involved or an inadequate heat dam at best. Factory front rotors all have a heat dam of one sort or another, rear ones don't.

Then there are those conversion kits that often include instruction language that says "may require grinding off of caliper to gain adequate wheel clearance." Now that's a real dandy idea! Start off by weakening one of the primary components in the system. Alternatives sometimes suggest the use of spacers, which likely means lug studs may ultimately become too short to adequately secure the wheel to the hub. Maybe a better idea would be to use a wheel with a different backspace or have a wheel shop move the center of existing wheels back sufficiently to prevent contact of the caliper with the wheel. Just make sure that any wheel alteration done will not cause tire rub against the fender openings or frame.

Rant over!

Jim

[poci1957]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Hi Todd, Nice rant! You mean to tell me you wouldn't feel safe a 80mph with a set of eight lugs on a 63? Those finned aluminum drums with steel liners will consistantly haul down a 4,000 lb. Pontiac from over a 100mph time after time with no brake fade.

Hi Don, full disclosure on that, my car was (and is) equipped with 8 lugs, but their performance after over 20 years was not 100%. I probably had corrosion between the drum and liners as mentioned in Ron Panzer's excellent series on 8 lugs in Smoke Signals, plus bias tires and other issues. Suffice it to say my car was a rickety example at the time.

But I would still trust it more than some modified brake add-ons as described by Jim Edwards above, or other examples of backyard tinkerers who think they will save money and effort by slapping together a quick street rod rather than learning to work with the original equipment. Todd

[joe_padavano]

Rant over!

Jim

Jim,

As an aerospace engineer with 30 years of industry experience, I concur that many of the aftermarket disk brake kits are not well designed. I do not plan to use an aftermarket kit, but to adapt factory parts. Your concern over heat transfer has some merit, but realistically, the heat dissipation in the rotor comes primarily from air cooling of the rotor, not through conduction into the spindle. More to the point, most of these kits use factory bearings and seals that were designed for disk brake use. As an example, on the 67-72 GM A-body cars, the disk and drum brakes use the same part number bearings and seals. The spindles are even identical except for some minor machining differences where the caliper brackets attach in place of the drum brake backing plates.

On my 62, the drums use the same wheel bearings and seals as the later A-body rotors, so the rotors bolt right on. The factory caliper brackets attach to the early spindles with a few welded-on tabs, and yes, I am fully aware of the criticality of these welds and the need for sufficient strength. The brackets are mild steel and are easily welded. As for grinding on the caliper itself for clearance, I do not need to do that, but frankly, it's not hard to tell what part of the casting is structural and what part is there only for manufacturing convenience. Suffice to say that 1960s and early 1970s domestic car parts are far from being weigh-optimized. They are cost-optimized and there is a lot of extra metal in these parts.

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

Jim,

As an aerospace engineer with 30 years of industry experience, I concur that many of the aftermarket disk brake kits are not well designed. I do not plan to use an aftermarket kit, but to adapt factory parts. Your concern over heat transfer has some merit, but realistically, the heat dissipation in the rotor comes primarily from air cooling of the rotor, not through conduction into the spindle. More to the point, most of these kits use factory bearings and seals that were designed for disk brake use. As an example, on the 67-72 GM A-body cars, the disk and drum brakes use the same part number bearings and seals. The spindles are even identical except for some minor machining differences where the caliper brackets attach in place of the drum brake backing plates.

On my 62, the drums use the same wheel bearings and seals as the later A-body rotors, so the rotors bolt right on. The factory caliper brackets attach to the early spindles with a few welded-on tabs, and yes, I am fully aware of the criticality of these welds and the need for sufficient strength. The brackets are mild steel and are easily welded. As for grinding on the caliper itself for clearance, I do not need to do that, but frankly, it's not hard to tell what part of the casting is structural and what part is there only for manufacturing convenience. Suffice to say that 1960s and early 1970s domestic car parts are far from being weigh-optimized. They are cost-optimized and there is a lot of extra metal in these parts.

Though we might have some differences in opinion about conduction of heat via rotors I think we are pretty much on the same page otherwise. Where possible to use factory parts in a conversion to disc brakes that is obviously the best route. Unfortunately the route to determining if there is a direct fit from a more recent production vehicle is not at all easy and time consuming. I suspect the average vintage car owner doesn't even have a remote clue where to start beyond what they may read in a magazine or some forum like these, and as we know not all of that information is necessarily correct, though it may have seemingly been based upon something that appears to have worked.

And you are correct about some conversion kits utilizing bearings that are the same as called for with factory disc systems. Of course some of those same bearings might well have also been used on a car manufactured before disc brakes were introduced into production automobiles in this country. The bearings unto themselves are not a potential issue beyond fitting the hub/spindle correctly, nor are they directly part of any heat conduction issues, beyond becoming sufficiently hot enough for grease to flow out of them. As an aerospace engineer I'm sure you are well aware of the fact that disc brakes appeared on aircraft long before they found their way to automobiles, but that should also make you aware of the fact rotor heat dissipation is always a major issue. While rare, I have seen more than one landing of military fighter or attack aircraft result in a wheel lockup that ended in both a tire and wheel being ground flat on runway concrete, all thanks to heat buildup and bearing failures. If it were not for rotor designs having "heat dams" occurrences of that nature would be far too common and a lot of aircraft would be routinely running off the runways. Granted a landing aircraft is demanding more and stressing brake components far beyond those ever encountered by an automobile but the basic physics remain the same.

While rotors tend to dissipate heat far better than cast iron drums I don't think anyone associated with the automotive industry will deny there has never been a rotor designed that dissipated heat as well as anticipated. Quite evidenced by the continual quest for better heat dissipation. We see rotors with the separating vanes headed this way or that way at various angles in order to hopefully achieve better heat dissipation, or we see rotors that look like chunk of Swiss cheese in hopes of creating better cooling, and so on and so on.

While I agree there may be a certain amount of excessive material in caliper castings, and though I agree that the industry was not weight conscience for fuel economy reasons in the 1960s or 1970s, the industry was in the quest for greater speed in shorter distances and that tends to imply less material and lighter was the goal even then. Just for different reasons. There has also never been an opportunity passed up by Detroit that might save a quarter per unit, sometimes even at the expense of good engineering practice. One thing I know for certain is I'll never grind material from a caliper casting when there are far better options. Not as cheap but definitely better.

Personally I'm hoping to find a factory disc brake set up from something that will improve stopping distances on '62 Starfires without spindle machining and will allow the use of 14" wheels. Don't want much do I?

[Guest N43]

This thread is extremeley timely on three subjects: a dearth of tech and restoration data, originality, and disc brakes.

I bought a 1950 Series 76 Club Coupe several months ago. I am a recovering Corvette person who gave up a 1954 that I owned for over 20 years.

I am totally surprised at the lack of data e.g. part numbers, production dates and production numbers for colors and options beyond what is published in a maintenence manual and articles in Wikipedia and How Things Work. "Corvette people" know how many times the guy putting on right front wheels sneezed that day. (Almost!)

I am an early baby boomer and my attitude is that originality is important but not as important as safety, security and driveability. Seat belts and kill switches are o'k. "Period correct" mechanical upgrades are o'k e.g. Rocket engine upgrades, 12 volt conversions and even Halogen headlights.

My dilemma is front disc brakes vs a complete 88 brake setup that I acquired in anticipation of dropping in a 303 V8. My experience with Chevy drum brakes says to "upgrade" but if the drums I have can stop a heavy 98 convertible and station wagon, would disc brakes be an improvement?

Thanks.

N43

[Guest]

This thread is extremeley timely on three subjects: a dearth of tech and restoration data, originality, and disc brakes.

I bought a 1950 Series 76 Club Coupe several months ago. I am a recovering Corvette person who gave up a 1954 that I owned for over 20 years.

I am totally surprised at the lack of data e.g. part numbers, production dates and production numbers for colors and options beyond what is published in a maintenence manual and articles in Wikipedia and How Things Work. "Corvette people" know how many times the guy putting on right front wheels sneezed that day. (Almost!)

I am an early baby boomer and my attitude is that originality is important but not as important as safety, security and driveability. Seat belts and kill switches are o'k. "Period correct" mechanical upgrades are o'k e.g. Rocket engine upgrades, 12 volt conversions and even Halogen headlights.

My dilemma is front disc brakes vs a complete 88 brake setup that I acquired in anticipation of dropping in a 303 V8. My experience with Chevy drum brakes says to "upgrade" but if the drums I have can stop a heavy 98 convertible and station wagon, would disc brakes be an improvement?

Thanks.

N43

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N43, Early this year I had my 76 Olds in the Pacific Southwest OCA meet. There was a 48 98 conv. in the show (new body - old engine) and there was considerable interest in this car and mine. After talking to the owner of the 48 about why all this interest he said to me. My car was the last year Olds used a straight eight and your car is the last year Olds used a straight six. The general feelings in the past were to put in a V-8 engine (preferably a Olds V-8). The Olds you have is also unique because it is the last year for a Olds with a flathead six engine. Please consider this point before you alter your cars DNA. They are only original once. The 257 big six is a neat engine, surely a suprise for someone not noticing the absence of 88 script while looking in your engine compartment and expecting a 303!

Don

[Guest N43]

I thought about it, too. If it actually is the last surviving Series 76 Club Coupe, I will not modify it and probably sell it to someone who has the budget and motivation to make it a #1. It needs alot including a Hydromatic; the existing case appears to have been brazed.

[Guest]

I thought about it, too. If it actually is the last surviving Series 76 Club Coupe, I will not modify it and probably sell it to someone who has the budget and motivation to make it a #1. It needs alot including a Hydromatic; the existing case appears to have been brazed.

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N43, Plenty of D type Hydra Matic's out there you can pick up. Parts for them are easy to get and so easy to rebuild. You could even make it a dual range (just don't change the shift quadrant) !!Leave the flathead and dare to be different, you will notice the difference at your first car show or cruise. People like unique!

Don