AACA library

[Guest 1930]

I have been told that all material that has been donated by past D.B club members has now been donated to the AACA library. This came from John Bittence himself, anyone heard about what the deal is with that, are we going to have to now pay the AACA library a reserach fee if we request some information, also it was my understanding that the AACA library was already understaffed so what are the chances that even if there is no fee for D.B club members for research that the research people at the library will make the time to diligently research any requested info since there is no monetary motivation to supplement the time needed to do the research.

Also I will ask if it is now possible for someone/anyone to be able to go there personally and be able to research thru the material themselves or will it be only handled by the library personel.

I thought that I had heard a few years ago that the D.B club itself was putting together some sort of a museum, I am curious as to what happened with that idea and question why it wasnt determined that the material that has been donated in good faith over the years by members to assist other members would not have or could it still be positioned there. Hoping that maybe someone on the board of directors ( apparently the persons whom made the decision to move the stuff ) might comment on this subject. Thanks

[Joe Cozza]

The material that John B. had in his home. was moved to the AACA library for safe keeping. It was NOT, I repeat, NOT donated to the library.

John had a concern that in the unlikly case of a fire in his home all the documents will be lost. The club already substained a lost when the location where the club stuff was stored burned down. Yes, we had insurance, so we were able to replace everything however the material the was at John's home can not be replaced.

The material can be accessed by the staff for the use of AACA members. None of the material in the library can leave the building.

I'm not sure the fees charged by the AACA, But that info can be had on their web site.

We pay a fee for the space we use in their secure and fireproof room.

We can remove the material at any time for any reason.

It was a good decision by the board.

[Guest 1930]

Here are the fees.....

$10.00 (this must accompany your request)

Research $30.00/hour* (chargeable in units of 10 minutes @ $5.00)

*PAID AACA MEMBERS ARE ELIGIBLE TO RECEIVE UP TO 1.5 HOURS OF RESEARCH FREE.

Copies b&w: $0.30/page

color: $0.50/page

Scans $1.00/page for color TIF & PDF

Research requests may take 4-6 weeks to process.

Over the years it has been mentioned several times in past newsletters that eventually the stuff would be compiled into respective categories and then copied into respective files so that the owners of the vehicles could have one stop shopping for information on their vehicles. I am sure that alot of people donated the literature thinking this would be the case and their fellow Dodge owners could have the relative information right at their fingertips. It has appeared for quite some time that this was not going to happen and it would appear at this point as if this is almost certaintely not going to happen. If I had ever ( which I had not because I feared that there might be tidbits of info lost beause of lack of research time avail. ) donated material I would not be happy with this.

It will also be interesting to see how John is going to come up with a newsletter of substance without having some material ( other than the Victory six ) at his disposal.

I would have compiled all this info together as was originally suggested would be done with the material and then placed it somewhere for safe keeping. I have offered my own services to do this and I am sure there would have been others found that would have also volunteered their time but my offer was never acknowledged.

A blunder in my opinion!!

I should clarify John never said Donated, he said at the requect of the board of directors he delivered the entire club archives to the AACA library. I assumed the word donated was the proper term, not that it makes much of a difference ( in my opinion ) on how it pertains to the accesability issue but wanted to clarify.

Edited October 14, 2010 by 1930 (see edit history)

[gundog99]

Surely, this is an internal debate, that the members of the Dodge Club should be having among themselves.

[Guest 1930]

Most of us here are members of the club, I had assumed that maybe the post would bring forth some comments/suggestions. I personally dont think what was done or has been done with the material has been the wisest move, the material was donated so that all members would have the opportunity to learn more about the cars they are restoring, it was once again donated under the assumption that it could be easliy accessed by its members without having to pay a third party a sum of money. I made this post only to find out what the story was so that I would not assume anything incorrect, in my opinion thru the newsletter it should have been discussed with members or at least had its members notified that it was considering moving the material to a different place. Its being treated as if it is investment material ( in my opinion ) for the club and once again that was never the imression that I ever got from past newsletters over the years and surely not the reason that it was originally donated to the club in the first place.

Just the fact that Joe ( our club president ) made this statement ....I'm not sure the fees charged by the AACA, But that info can be had on their web site..........shows me that the consideration of the average guy trying to find out particular info or the original idea behind people donating the material over the years for other members accesability was not considered.

At this point we have 123 views and two responses so I guess once again noone really cares!!

Edited October 15, 2010 by 1930 (see edit history)

[Jim Anselmo]

Just an observation, but regardless of where the info is stored, someone would need to look it up. I'm not sure that it would be fair to assume that John has the time to look up the information and then get it scanned, faxed, sent etc.

Gee, maybe there is a new club postion to be had here - a Club Archivist. They could be paid just like the AACA, but all the proceeds going to the Club. Of course there is still the question of safe storage.... BTW, I'm not volunteering for this "new" position.

Jim

[Guest 1930]

I am not perfectly clear on the club doings but there is already a club historical research committee listed in each newsletter made up of 5 people. Not sure exactely what their positions entail. I as mentioned had already suggested this and volunteered for exactely what you suggest Jim and never received a response, maybe our President would like to comment on this now. The notion of all of this information being collected to be put into different categories of the different makes of vehicles was started I believe in the late 80s. ( I hope to be corrected if I am wrong ) If it were done then at that point I agree with storing it in the safest place possible and then of course John or anyone else would not have to be paid to look up information.

[gundog99]

Presumable ,if the archive is merely being stored on behave of the club , a designated club officials should be able to access and use to them as required; any thing less than that, might over time, enable the AACA library to claim ownership of the records.

Edited October 16, 2010 by gundog99 (see edit history)

[Joe Cozza]

Hi all,

I just spent a 1/2 hour typing up the correct information about this move but could not attach it to this post.

If anybody is interested sent a PM with your e/m.

Thanks,

Joe C.

[Phil 32DL6]

Hi all,

I just spent a 1/2 hour typing up the correct information about this move but could not attach it to this post.

If anybody is interested sent a PM with your e/m.

Thanks,

Joe C.

Joe...Assuming you are typing up the info in Word, try saving the file in PDF format instead of a Word .doc. You can then attach it as you would normally any JPEG image file.

[Guest 1930]

Hi Joe, sent you a PM but just in case my e-mail is jhason2@yahoo.com Thanks

BTW if you just right click and then select all and then right click again and then copy and the left click this is what happens....

Hi Joe, sent you a PM but just in case my e-mail is jhason2@yahoo.com Thanks

BTW if you just right click and then select all and then right click again and then copy and the left click this is what happens....

You can do that anytime you want to copy and paste a message

[nearchoclatetown]

Jason, I was asked to reply to this. As Joe said the aggreement with the AACA library is NOT a donation, never was intended to be that. The DBC pays, as does several other clubs, for the storage in a safe location accessible to members for their own research or it can be done by the professional staff of AACA. If you've followed the AACA magazine's library articles you would know that the Pierce Arrow Society, Nat'l Corvette Restorer's Society, Vintage Chevrolet Club, and others do the same. They all pay by the amount of literature being stored. It will be returned whenever either club, either DBC or AACA decides to end the contract. It is inventoried and NONE of it leaves AACA library unless the DBC agrees to it. The complete list of literature will be on the online catelog, can be copied and mailed to any place on earth. Can't get much better, in my opinion. John B. has copies of everything the editor needs for newsletters and will have access to anything else he needs. This has been discussed for at least THREE years at national meets, so it should not be a surprise. I've given literature to both the DBC and AACA and will continue to do so. It is now accessible to many more people then ever before. The club's museum is still in the future, hopefully it will happen.

[Guest 1930]

So just to clarify if I were to go to the library than I would be allowed access to any of the information that has been placed there by the DB club??? If your not certain of the answer than please dont because at some point I wll test this, the library is a heck of alot closer than Detroit Public library.

I wouldnt have any idea this has been ever discussed nor would many other members since I am not retired, work full time have a family and have never been to any meets since there have never been any meets in the Southeast that I have ever been aware of. Thanks

[Steve Moskowitz]

Jason,

Please allow me to address some of your concerns. We are not understaffed! We have two full time librarians with their Masters Degree in Library Science plus two other part time employees along with a legion of volunteers.

The AACA Library is one of the safest in the world. It has a full time 24 hour digital surveillance system, a state of the art clean fire suppression system and a HVAC system that controls the temperature and humidity to an exact setting 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.

Our librarians work with other clubs to properly store their documents so they do not deteriorate and they provide an immense service to clubs that use our facility for the very, very nominal rent we charge. It is the reason so many large national clubs are moving their archives to us from the Society of Automobile Historians to NCRS.

Our library has always been a FREE public library and there is zero charge for anyone to come in and research ALL of our materials to their hearts content We do charge if copies of any material are needed but beyond that the matter is simple. I am CERTAIN of this answer. In addition, members of AACA get 1 1/2 hours of free research each year and can do this long distance. If you do come to Hershey our staff will cheerfully help you in finding the documents you need and offer you assistance in your research FREE as well.

The DBC, in my opinion, made an intelligent decision to safeguard the club's materials. Believe me, the amount of work and cost for us to provide this service to your club does not come close to a break-even for us.

I commend the DBC decision makers for putting the safety and accessibility of the clubs archives above all else. We are all here to preserve history and to allow hobbyists worldwide to obtain the information they seek.

Edited October 22, 2010 by Steve Moskowitz (see edit history)

[Guest 1930]

Quote....Our library has always been a FREE public library and there is zero charge for anyone to come in and research ALL of our materials to their hearts content We do charge if copies of any material are needed but beyond that the matter is simple. I am CERTAIN of this answer. In addition, members of AACA get 1 1/2 hours of free research each year and can do this long distance. If you do come to Hershey our staff will cheerfully help you in finding the documents you need and offer you assistance in your research FREE as well.

I had no idea of this, trying to deal with Chrysler Historical as well as even the Detroit Public library has shown me that only SPECIAL people are allowed to see certain material and even then it requires nearly a background check with 18 proofs of ID which I can understand to a degree, I wouldnt expect a bum off the street to have at it.

Maybe I got got understaffed from Chrysler Historical now that I think about it. It is literally like pulling teeth trying to get information from either of these places.

Your reply is appreciated and have to admit that this might even work out better for myself and others after all.

I still think the club should follow thru with what the original intention was ( and maybe it will still one day ) but knowing that at least the stuff is still accessible ( actually maybe even more accessible by the way that you present it ) makes things a whole lot nicer.

I also think that the club should have laid all the facts out to us as you have done here now, ( God forbid we question our elected officials ) it would have made things much less misunderstood but at least we all know now that we have even greater access to it all which is the way it was intended when it was given!

Thank-you again for your time and reply, I personally am relieved

Edited October 22, 2010 by 1930 (see edit history)

[Joe Cozza]

Thanks Doug for help in explaining the Board's decision.

Good to see you back on line.

Also, thank you Steve for corroborating what I said in my message to Jason.

BTW. Jason the nation meet will be in CT 2012. Love to see you here. It's only a short plane ride away.

[Guest 1930]

Its where I was born and I have been meaning to visit so it is defanitely a possability

Edited October 23, 2010 by 1930 (see edit history)

[nearchoclatetown]

Joe's explanation in the newest newsletter says it all about the literature, mine came on Thursday. Very well said, Joe. Now if we could just get everyone to understand to NOT send foreign checks for membership.

[Guest 1930]

Just got my latest newsletter today and am still confused, Steve Moskowitz states above................Our library has always been a FREE public library and there is zero charge for anyone to come in and research ALL of our materials to their hearts content ..................Joe our club president states in the latest newsletter and I quote......The only drawback is that you have to be an AACA member to use the library................so which is it?

That statement given by Joe is new to me as it has not been mentioned before in this post.

Membership to the AACA is very reasonable in my opinion at 35.00 a year but once again I personally am not a member of the AACA and dont have much interest in joining since my interest is mainly concerned with D.B motor vehicles, also once again I dont think that ( or rather I am certain that ) the people that donated the material did so with the pretense that other Dodge owners would have to pay to view it.

I am also concerned with the statement made in the minutes of meetings portion of the newsletter that states.......... items we ( assuming that means the board of directors ) deem to sensative will be kept locked...........What does this mean? I understand that there are prob. many documents that are just to fragile to be handled by any Tom Dick or Harry but once again I will say that if the material had been used as it was supposedely origianlly intended for than we wouldnt have to worry about delicate material past the initial copy.

I am still wanting to know what are the responsabilities of the clubs historical research committee. Wouldnt that title fit the bill for the people that might take on the responsability of carrying out what needs to be done to these donated materials so that other Dodge owners and prospecting owners have a chance at restoring or preserving their cars correctly.

Once again I will say and once again I am sure that it will be ignored that it wouldnt take a whole lot to find people that would be willing to take on the task of scanning the material and helping to make it avail to everyone, I once again would happily volunteer my time and I am sure there are others.

Edited December 22, 2010 by 1930 (see edit history)

[nearchoclatetown]

Jason, I've always thought I understood that the library was for members only. Chris, the librarian, just last week read Joe's statement in our newsletter and ask me to pass along that the library is open to anyone, member or not. The sensative literature mentioned is ANYTHING the club deems too valuable, fragile or personal to be in public hands. There are some personal letters in the collection. There's also many pieces that should not be handled because they are fragile. We can keep anything of that nature in the safe. All the literature will be on the online catelog soon, eventually will be scanned and able to be copied digitally. I just gave Chris a copy of a manual that he copied and is available now as a CD or paper. He is almost finished with the VCCA collection and will start ours soon. With about 1100 members I doubt any one person or even a group would want to take on the task of copying and shipping research info for free. Plus the storage was of concern. As to the historical research commitee, if you know any of them you would know they have large stashes of their own literature. You and anyone else that's never been to a Nat'l meet needs to do so.

[Guest 1930]

I read in the newest newsletter as well after digging into into it a little further that a proposal that all documents may be made avail online was proposed possibly by Barry Cogin and that sounds like someone is thinking on the right track.

Amazes me that Joe nor whomever is proffreading this newsletter before its release dosent seem to really have a firm grasp on the real deal with all that literature and how it is going to be handled but its good that the library will be open without a charge.

[Joe Cozza]

Jason,

Before you start making comments about what goes on at our board meetings you might want to attend at least one of our meetings. They are open to all club members.

We do not have a member named Barry Cogin. If you read the Minutes correctly, you will see That Barry COGAN was talking about our proposed museum NOT the storage of our historical documents!

I take offense at your comment that I/we don't have a"firm grasp" on the literature. We have

talked about this subject during many board meetings. OH I forgot, you haven't been to a Membership meeting or a DBC meet, so you wouldn't know. I have talked to the librarian Chris Ritter many times about this arrangement to make sure the club was doing the best thing.

I wasted enough time explaining this to you, again!!

Joe C.

[Guest 1930]

Joe before you get all fluffed about about people questioning what happens within the club you should realize that you are an elected official and it is your designated job to know all that is going on within the club and be able to answer questions accurately so as far as you feeling that you are wasting your time with me than I really dont give a toot.

As far as attending a D.B meet you should consider that not all members live in the central portion of the country and also many are still employed with families to support, if there ever was a D.B meet say within 500 miles of FL than I would of course have less of an excuse to attend but as far as I know there has never been.

As far as joining or becoming more of an active member there was an add placed in the D.B news sometime ago obout a VOLUNTEER position to learn the ropes of becoming an assistant editor, I was told numerous times that I was THE ONLY person whom had offered to fill the position and I have more than enough qualification as far as being computer literate but for a reason still unbeknown to me I did not ( and prob will not at this point ) get the poition.

Then I noticed in a newsletter that you had an add asking for volunteers needed to help the club grow but didnt state specifically what those positions were, I sent an e-mail to Gerry Egland whom was the contact person and after waiting more than a month or less cant exactely remember and dont care enough to research it I got this response.....Hi. I sent this to address in the 2006 roster and while looking through my DA file realized my screw up. Juno didn't send it back......Sorry, Gerry......No problem, not his fault and in my opinion Gerry is a good guy, one of the best prob. within the club, do you know that he actually took apart the bumper in his car so he could trace accurate measurements for my own car when I thought I would have to make a rear bumper, that is a real Dodge Brother and I will never forget that sort of kindness.

.Hi Jason,

Just returned from the annual club meet in Gettysburg Pa. I raised your

interest in a board position within the club at the board meeting. Most

members know who you are through your DA interests and project, but few

have met you. This makes it difficult to fairly assess a person as a

candidate for a position on an eleven person board of directors. All of

the present group have held annual meets or have attended multiple meets

and in general, are strong contributors to the growth of the club. The

fit of an individual is best determined through contact and that is what

I suggest you consider. Here is a game plan. The meet schedule is full

until 2016 when an Eastern meet will be held east of the Mississippi

river. That location could be Florida,where the club has never been.

Attend a meet or two for exposure and host that one. I,with others have

hosted two and I landed the Presidents job...........

2016 are you FNNNNNNN kiddingme...........Again no offense to you Gerry, ........

I then contacted Roger Hartley thru e-mail and offered my services as a back-up tech advisor or some capacity thereoff and NEVER received any sort of a response from anyone except that there was already a DA tech advisor.

I have met Jack Carpenter a founding member of the club, he was kind enough to visit me while he was visiting a realitve of his nearby, we spent some time together and talked about Dodge, I am sure that I left no doubt in his mind of my character and thoughts when it came to my love for early Dodge Brother automobiles.

Because of all this I have little interest in attending one of your meets at this point unless there is one within 500 miles, ( and even then I wouldnt go out of my way to meet ecrtain characters within the club ) it would seem to me that your club is hinged on the good old boy network and noone that asks questions or states objection to what other members do is accepted into your social network.

I also feel that the club has got away from its original purpose which was the ORIGINAL preservation of D.B motor vehicles, in your own words to me you have stated you are really not interested so much in originality but just enjoy driving your cars. I dont take offense to that, other peoples cars are not my car so they can do whatever they want with them and hey knock themselves out, the more cars that are desecrated the more unique my own car becomes so why not slip a B.B chevrolet in it and get it over with. Then noone will have to worry about the work involved and the time invested into getting it back to original.

First line on the DB website states ...... Founded 1983 Incorporated 1986 For the research and preservation of Dodge Brothers Motor Vehicles and Graham Brothers Commercial Vehicles 1914-1938 .............I think that may have been changed not long ago but I may be mistaken, I think it used to incude the word original somewhere, maybe that was changed when you came into office I dont know and I cant say anything about that since apparently its not ok to ask questions on the D.B club discussion forum and expect accurate answers pertaining to the clubs dealings.

Also you might want to reread the latest newsletter as I have done since you commented above that I didnt read the minutes correctly, yes the proposal was titled Proposal for Dodge Brothers Museum but phase 1 of that proposal was and I quote .........Establish a website that will be a vitual repoistory for everything Dodge Brother.

The website would contain

1. Material from the Dodge Brothers club archives

2. Material loaned to the club for the express purpose of placing it in the website blah blah blah

3. Member uploaded material blah blah blah.

There is no signature of any sort at the end of these statements and the next to be found was a Barry Cogan so I assumed it was him that offered these ideas, so sorry for my mistake and so sorry that I gave credit to Barry Cogin for using his head and thinking along the same lines of the original idea of collecting all this material.

As far as I am concerned and please excuse me for a VERY SMALL part of my next statement as I know absalutely nothing about buisness, ( that is what this club is apparently with 16000 in checking over 40,000 in savings and nearly 8 gees in a museum fund ) that this club has collected this material over the years from unsuspecting members to benefits its own coffers, with this many years gone by that you people have had this material and with the kind of money the club has saved up ( where a small portion of that fund could have been used to pay someone to scan the material ) ( I know its fragile, Bullshiz, I have bookshelves full of the same fragile material and I bought a cheap hand held scanner where you just open the book and run it over the pages so nothing is damaged ) and with the number of people that are on the board of directors and historical research committee that you people would have made this material avail to everyone but you just didnt care enough.

I am glad that it is at AACA, Maybe they will do something with it usefull.

With the direction it seems your club is going its a no wonder original cars are not being preserved, the material is not made readily available and you just about have to kiss someones rearend to get any quantity of it and god forbid your own car and your own knowledge becomes more original or greater than the poeple whom you are speaking with because at that point the help just ends.

I think I will just stay here on this site and do what little I can to help people restore there cars correctly. At this point after people read this I dont think I will be invited to any more meets ( which I cant attend anyway since again the distance and monetary loss ) and at this point I couldnt possibly care any less.

One more note, when was the last time or even the frequency of a tech advisor coming to the official DB help forum and actually helping someone???? Yeah you guys are really concerned with the preservation of these old cars :eek:

For anyone seething to make a sarcastic comment to this post do yourself a favor and save it, it will only prove further my points above and I dont care what you might think anymore than the board of directors cares what I and other members might think.

Edited December 23, 2010 by 1930 (see edit history)