2007 La Cross question

[Bill Stoneberg]

I went out to start my wifes Lacross but she had left the 4 way flashers and the battery was dead.

Key went in, turned to start but for the life of me I couldn't get thekey out ill I charged tha battery

Whats up with this anyway ?

Also, who designed the battery placement, I am not sure everything I would have to take out to get the battery out, but mechanics did not design it.

[NTX5467]

(How did the flashers manage to become activated??)

Not aware of any dead battery-key retention interfaces. Might be that the key has something going on with the key cuts and the tumblers? If the battery's dead, how could that situation deploy a locking device of sorts?

Did the battery get moved from the rh front of the vehicle location? Used to be that all you had to do was to take one bolt out, loosen the other one, and reposition the fender brace . . . when the battery was in that part of the vehicle.

I've heard of radios that thought they were stolen when a battery went dead or was changed, but not transponder keys that got persnickety in the same situation. Sounds highly unusual, with all due respect.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[Bill Stoneberg]

Some believe that you turn on the 4 way flashers to check the mail.

It was suspesious with the key, it went in turned to start turned off but would not come out. I tried, wiggled key, wheel and did everything else I could think of. Finally left the key in and drove the truck. Charged the battery started the car and the key came right out. Sounds and acted highly unusal is not qiue the right words.

Battery is in the front right part of the car, fender brace came off, looks like you have to move a big black box too along with the normal battery bolts. Or at least that is what it looks like to this person.

Thanks for the info Willis, it seemed awfully strange with the key to me too. Needless to say after messing with it in the 100 degree temps, I was po'd at the flasher.

[Pete O]

I had the same thing happen to me last year! I have a 2007 LaCrosse too. One day the battery seemed fine- no indication that it was undercharged. Next day when I went to start it, a couple clicks, then nothing. And I mean nothing- dome light didn't work, idiot lights on dashboard didn't light- nothing. And then the key would not come out of the ignition lock! The key would not turn to the off position so that you could remove it. After I jump started it, everything went back to normal. I replaced the battery, and up until about a month ago, everything was fine. Then one morning about a month ago, I went to start it, it clicked, but the starter didn't turn over- until I turned the key off! When the key was turned to the off position, the engine cranked over for a few spins then stopped. I tried starting it again, and it started, but the starter kept engaging after the engine was running. I shut it right down. I tried again, and it cranked but wouldn't start. I locked the ignition, got out of the car, locked the doors, unlocked the doors, got into the car and it started right up and has run fine ever since. I took it to the dealer, and they couldn't find anything wrong. In my opinion- and this is a guess only, I think it probably has something to do with the chip that's imbedded in the key. I'd bet that the problems start when the system doesn't read the chip correctly, and the anti-theft systems start kicking in.

[Pete O]

Here's someone else with the same problem!

Security System shut down-Key stuck in accessory position no powr - FixYa

[NTX5467]

My first "adventure" with GM transponder keys was when they were first used in the later 1990s. I believe that Ford had already used them on Tauruses at that time, possibly Chrysler in some applications, too. In this case, it was with a Chevy Venture Van, but we also had them on Park Avenues.

If you cut a key on a non-transponder blank, with the same configuration (slots in the key stem), with the same cut code as the transponder key, it'll work the ignition cylinder just fine, even crank the vehicle too. If you have a transponder vehicle which the vehicle already recognizes laying on the seat, it'll crank and START. Take that recognized transponder key and lay it on the roof, and the non-transponder key will allow the vehicle to crank but not start . . . as the fuel pump is not commanded to "run". These are independent steps from what the vehicle security system (keyless entry) does. If the security system had felt it had been breeched, then the horn and such would have been activated.

Along about that same time, a salesman sold a new Park Avenue to a fleet customer, who wanted an extra key. I told him it was a transponder key and that the vehicle needed to recognize it or the vehicle would crank but not start and run. When he delivered the vehicle, the extra key was laying in the seat (where the transponder mechanism could "see" the keys it was programmed to recognize), so they all worked as the vehicle had "recognized keys in full sight of the transponder's signal). When they got separated, though, the new one did not work . . . just crank but not start and run.

Since that time, the security systems have become more sophisticated, but cycling the keyless entry "clearing" things out seems a little unusual. Plus the various styles and functions of particular factory alarm systems for particular vehicles. In one respect it sounds like it's a key issue (the cuts being just a little off, but still normally working), but in another respect, it sounds like the ignition switch mechanism is having some issues.

One time, I used one of our (then new) Geo Prism rent cars to fetch a part from another dealer, after hours. When I pulled into a filling station on the way back to get some gas, the ignition key would not come out OR turn. Just like Bill, I giggled it, tried to turn the wheel, "tapped" on the wheel, tried to turn it "with force", and even "said words" over it, to no avail. About the time I was getting ready to go in and call a wrecker, I tried it again and it worked. I eagerly got it started and drove home! No further problems.

On the LaCrosse, more research might be needed . . .

Take care,

NTX5467

Edited August 31, 2010 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[Barney Eaton]

The dead battery creates a huge vacumn on the electrical wires and that holds the key in place..... sometimes it is soooooo bad the hood will not open. I love technical stuff.

[Pete O]

The dead battery creates a huge vacumn on the electrical wires and that holds the key in place..... sometimes it is soooooo bad the hood will not open. I love technical stuff.

Nyuk-nyuk:D

[NTX5467]

SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT . . . No electrica vacuum or resonance . . . just "normal mechanicals"

Remember those pesky Shift Interlock Devices? The ones where you have to apply the brake before you can move the shifter out of "Park"? The "actuator" for that mechanism is electrical, usually a solenoid attached to a cable in the shift linkage.

In the case of a "dead battery", after the instinctive thing of trying to start the vehicle, when you THINK you have the key in the "OFF LOCKED" position, the shift lock cable will prevent it from returning completely to the "OFF LOCKED" position . . . right up to the edge of the detent, but not IN the detent. Therefore, the key can't be removed from the cylinder. Apply voltage to the vehicle, either through charging the battery or from a jumper battery, and the solenoid returns to its normal position AND lets the interlock cable move enough MORE so that the key cylinder will then be completely in the "OFF LOCKED" position, at which time the key can be removed as normal.

There is a GM Tech Advisory on this condition, covering 2005+ cars (I think that's when they changed the column design internally, but I'm not sure).

ALSO, from prior observations, it is a good idea to charge a dead battery rather than jump the vehicle off and rely upon the alternator to do it. With the dead battery, the alternator output will spike and could cook the internals from the sudden max output that is happening. I first learned of this on later model Fords, then I found out that GMs were the same way.

ALSO . . . if the a/c controls become sluggish to not change as quickly as they used to, the first thing (conventional wisdom) is to replace the controller, with the new one working "as expected". In reality, this can also be a low voltage situation, too. So, first get a charging system check rather than jumping to spend money on an expensive a/c control head!

These failures will usually happen in the daylight hours, but the battery will finally expire in the after-dark hours. When that happens, you'll most probably see pairs of indicator icons in the instrument cluster flash in a sequence of sorts, usually in pairs . . . right before the car stops running. It seems that GM's engine controller will let the ignition work down to about 5 volts before it stops working . . . right down to a "dead battery" situation. This can be good or bad, depending upon where it might happen.

In the charging system check, the alternator will look good until more than an initial load is applied. With more load, the output decreases QUICKLY.

I saw this scenario play out with a first-gen fwd Malibu. It was in for an a/c controller complaint (not changing modes), so a new controller was installed. About 10pm that night, the same vehicle came in on a wrecker . . . it'd quit as the customer drove down the road. When we got it rolled into the shop (we were doing extended service hours at that time), we hooked up the VATS machine to check the charging system. We jumped the vehicle off to get it started. Voltage and amps were as expected. I increased engine speed up to about 1500 rpm or so while the service manager put more load on the system. With very little additional load, the output took a nosedive. Then, as the output decreased past 5 volts, the instrument cluster icons quickly flashed, two at a time, right before the engine died. A new alternator and battery charge took care of the situation.

If that stoppage had happened during daylight hours, the flashing icons might have been missed, but at night, they would be obvious.

So . . . that's how the dead battery kept the key from coming out of the ignition cylinder, but when the battery was charged, it magically came out like it ought to.

ENJOY!

NTX5467

Edited September 1, 2010 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[Pete O]

Interesting. Can a battery go from showing no symptoms of running down in the morning, to being stone cold dead in the afternoon? The day my Lacrosse's key got stuck, that morning, it cranked over at full speed. That afternoon, a couple of clicks from the starter, then all dashboard lights started flashing and there was clicking from under the dash (I had forgotten about that, but that link that I posted refreshed my memory), then nothing.

[Bill Stoneberg]

Batteries are now Binary meaning they are either good or bad, no more in between.

I have had modern cars drive / start fine and then get stuck at a rest area in Louisiana with a dead batter even though it started the truck 20 minutes before when we got gas.

Willis, thanks for the explanation, it makes sense.

[Reatta Man]

Battery quality has gone down considerably in the last few years.

Combined with the functions in a car that are now controlled or managed electronically that used to be purely mechanical, and yes, a key suddenly stuck in the switch when the battery dies isn't all that unusual.

Glad you got it fixed!

Joe

[NTX5467]

I suspect that electrical items on the vehicles are now more electrically-efficient than in prior history. Wiring gauge has been decreased, where applicable, for example, as there is less load in the circuits OR more circuits are run by relays now than in prior times. More electrical efficiency CAN mean less "on" time for the alternator . . . now turned on and off by a controller, it seems . . . which can equate to more fuel economy in the EPA tests. At the same time, battery capacity has usually increased . . . whether to decrease "on" time of the alternator or to support the vastly increased computerization of the vehicle.

Over the years, the parasitic load on the systems has decreased. When the '84 Corvettes were new, each dealer got a letter stating that their battery should be charged for 24 hours before putting it on the lot. If the battery was not charged, then the parasitic load from the vehicle alarm system would run the battery down--it'd run the battery down in about 30 days of being parked in the owner's garage, too, as many found out. In more recent times, OnStar searching for a satellite can also keep that system active when the vehicle is not, resulting in battery charge depletion, even over night in a few cases.

So, I suspect it's possible that with the increased electrical efficiency of the various systems, it takes less juice to run them, then battery condition can be near the edge and things would seem to operate just fine . . . until that line is crossed and an inoperative vehicle results.

Sometimes, I wonder if the increased computerization has not caused more problems than benefits for the owner. In the case of the GMC Envoy, the computer "knows" the location of the sunroof. If it loses that information, an error code happens, which means that the owner needs to "reset" the system by running the sunroof completely open and then closed. That sets the travel limits for the computer and then it will know what position the sunroof will be in when it's openned again, fully, partially, or closed. When I heard of that, I wondered "WHY??", just use some travel limit switches at each end of the track. I guess the software is less expensive than a few inexpensive swithces? Or the warranty labor to get to them, should they fail, might be too expensive?

Just some thoughts . . .

NTX5467

[Larry Schramm]

The new cars are more complex and have more modules (=computers) than ever. Some of the vehicles have 30 different modules and each usually has some parasitic draw to keep memory alive. When you add up all of the modules it is a fairly high number. Besides the radio which has memory, the clock, remote keyless entry that is on, and the list goes on. It is not that the batteries are getting worse, but there is more demand on them. Todays car does not have a mode where there is no draw on the battery.