AACA / POCI / Matching Numbers / Judging

[Ron Green]

I thought I would start a new thread rather then add this to the matching numbers thread. The purpose is to show different judging methods between clubs and here your opinions. The Pontiac Oakland Club International Club (POCI) has one national show a year and is made up of mostly volunteer judges for this event. In the past few years some major rules are now being enforced as per my conversation with the chief judge. For those of you who complain about the AACA judging, read on:<P>If your vehicles color (not shade)does not match your data plate even though it was a factory color for that model year you will be deducted 10 to 30 points depending if it is a single, two tone or tri-color. To avoid these deductions it is recommended that a new data plate be installed to match the colors of your vehicle. If non factory colors then the data plate should read paint=special. No deductions. It seems to me that a non factory data plate with false information will allow the vehicles history to be lost for future generations? <P>Pontiac along with other makes had many different color combinations that are rare (odd) and most may also be lost in history. Many of the surviving vehicles are the more common red, blues, whites, greens,etc as more of these colors were produced and are still around.<P>A 10 point deduction will also be taken from the interior as most matched the exterior color combinations. The trim codes will also need changed with a reproduction data plate.<P>They are thinking of making it the judges (volunteer)call regarding the colors on the amount of points to deduct for a wrong non matching data plate factory color if the false data plate is not used. The POCI will provide you at the end of the show a copy of your score sheet. I can see a couple of friends comparing sheets with a different amount of deductions for each having wrong factory colors via the data plate. Does this mean that a red color will get less deductions then a or equal vehicle painted a driftwood, salmon, etc? <P>I know the AACA does not deduct for non factory colors for the model year, what do other clubs do? Am I out of line here thinking a non factory data plate with false information is wrong? Are we not just the temporary keeper of these vehicles for future generations?

[1937hd45]

The easy way around this problem is to get rid of the Pontiac and buy a 1914-25 Ford. One color fits all.......and you have a better car.

[ronbarn]

Ron, you present an interesting question regarding a "requirement" to change the data plate to justify personal preferrence. I personally do not think this approach is in the best interest of preserving the history of the automobile. I do not think that a data plate on any car should be altered or replaced (unless for some reason it was missing altogether).<p>[ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: ronbarn ]

[novaman]

I agree with Father Ron. I feel it is better to have the wrong color per data plate than to alter it. No one will ever have the chance at correctly restoring the car to it's orginality without the orginal plate. I feel that altering the data plate is the same as changing the VIN number.

[Guest c.johnson]

FYI 1937hd45; <P>There were no Pontiacs from 1914 - 1925. That era it was the Oakland part of Pontiac/Oakland. <P>cj

[Ron Green]

Just to clarify. I know the AACA does not deduct for a factory color available for the model year. Novaman what is to stop someone from changing the vin numbers if they know it is ok to change the data plate? It would be a cheap way to make a Tempest a GTO and double your investment.

[Guest]

FYI c.johnson ~ I do not believe 1937hd45 said anything about a '14 -25 Pontiac. His post very clearly says '14 -'25 <B>FORD</B>.<P>Ron ~ I believe that AACA does deduct for a non factory color on a vehicle. It does not deduct for a factory color that was available for that make of car for that year, even though that was not the color of that particular car when it left the factory.<BR>You cannot use any color you want and get by without a deduction being taken.<P>A purple Model A just won't make it by the judges. ~ hvs

[66 Mystery Chevelle]

He walks up to the podium, clears his throat..... This could be long...<P>Well, this is a very good topic and lots to address.<P><B>what is to stop someone from changing the vin numbers if they know it is ok to change the data plate?</B> <P>The short answer <B>should be</B>, it's illegal to change and or falsify a VIN tag., it is not illegal to change the Trim Tag/Cowl Tag. Doesn't mean that stops people though.<P>However, nobody should be encouraging anyone to have a new Trim Tag made up to match the car as it is now with new color or interior or both...especially just to win a trophy. <P>The only time anyone should be having a new trim tag made is if the one belonging to the car has been lost or damaged to the point that it is not usable. I feel very strongly about this. There is way too much falsifying of cars now days. Trim tags can be made, Vin Tags with correct rivets, Protecto Plates, Build Sheets, and window stickers, all of it is easily obtainable, no underground needed really. Restore the car the way it came from the factory, and you won't have to worry about any of it. I could be wrong, but I believe I actually read in a similar post on this site that someone had a new tag made up for a car that was then sold, and the new owner never even knew the difference...well if that aint misrepresentation of a car then I don't know what is. To have a new tag made and not make a potential buyer aware that this was done, is just wrong. That is why this idea is wrong, for the future owner of the car, the guy who may be paying a premium price for a car which he thinks is original, and then if he decides to bring the car to an even higher level of restoration, he only has that false info to go on. We need to preserve as many of these cars as possible gentlemen, and if we as judges/club presidents/ or car clubs, allow changed tags so as to get the points needed, we are hurting the hobby.....IMHO.<P>Now, the question at hand. Do I think deducting points for incorrect paint and/or interior as indicated on the trim tags is good....<B>YES</B>. I assume we are speaking of a strictly original restored stock class, because otherwise it's a mute point.<P>30 points seem abit much, but it depends on how many point system is being used I guess...If it's anything from 100 to 500 points, I would say 10 points for each ( paint and interior) regardless of tones. If a 500 to 1000 pt. show, 30 is more in line.<P>Do other clubs do this? Well, within the Chevelle World, ie., National Chevelle Owners Association ( now defunct) No. When in the orig. restored class, a repaint or change of interior color or seat type did not deduct points as long as it was a offered color for that year and model and same for interior, as long as it was STOCK original format. This was points deduction and continues to be so when having the car judged for what is our own Diamond Certification however. Within the American Chevelle Enthusiast Society Regional Association judging, again there is no point deduction in this area and I might add neither system deducts for matching drivetrain components either as long as it it is of that year and make. Most of this only plays a factor in the collector car sale market...we diehards want the NUMBERS to MATCH..all of them, even the paint and trim because that tells us the car is original and therefore more valuable, no different than any other collectable ( paintings, stamps, coins). I want to look at that trim tag and see the numbers stamped in the metal and then look at the build sheet and Protecto Plate and see if they match up, but I don't want them to match b/c someone MADE them match through buying a new tag.<P><BR><B>It seems to me that a non factory data plate with false information will allow the vehicles history to be lost for future generations?</B> <P>EXACTLY. Deduct the points, but don't recommend getting a new tag..please.<P>He steps down from the podium and leaves the room.....<P>Mike

[Ron Green]

hvs, I agree with you and did clarify about the AACA ruling. If a guy wants to paint his vehicle a factory white color for the model year in lieu of the blue on the data plate I believe it is not a AACA deduction, which is good. When the car is sold the new owner can change it back to the factory data plate colors.<P>One car was painted a pink and had a paint=special data plate installed. The pink color was not even a manufactures color. Granted it would stick out on a model T or A and many of the older cars however it would probably slip by for a 50's or 60's vehicle. <P>POCI uses a 400 point system that is semi close to the AACA. One of my suggestions that fell on deaf ears was to put a vote to the members to first let them know of these rule changes and second of all do they think that changing data plates, colors, etc should be done. Opinions and views by the members can only help. I am sure many would be aganist changing a data plate however with only a few making the rules change comes slow.<P>One of the main reasons for starting this thread was that I felt it was important to make the AACA aware of this information and also let our members see how other clubs do things right or wrong. In this case wrong! <P>As they say common sense is un-common

[novaman]

66 Mystery Chevelle, very well said. I was trying it in a shorter version. <P>I feel though that when it comes to judging the cars, the sepcial marquee clubs should be paying special attention to the data tags. My reasoning for this is under the AACA judging system, there is no way that any judge is going to remember ALL the codes for ALL makes and ALL models, since he could be judging in any class at a show. But if it is a marquee club, you are talking a more specific group of cars. <P>I still say changing the data tag is wrong. And Ron, if they get caught changing the VIN the law will have something to say about that, since it is illegal. <BR>Nowadays your VIN number is on your bodypanels too. I know the GM cars had a tag that if removed the VIN number can still be traced. Cuts down on the cars being stripped for parts

[1937hd45]

Thanks Novaman, Hope I still have that tag from the Hurst/Olds I cut up a few years back, might be a market for it.

[ronbarn]

hvs, you are correct re AACA judging rule. I was trying to make the point about changing tags. For example, you well know "Betsy", my '34 Chevy. The tag shows it should be black, but I preferred the Pueblo Brown and orange wheels, an authentic color for'34 Chevy. Not just any color the owner prefers.

[RoadsterRich]

Well I am new to all of this so my opinion is not based on anything other than personal prejudice. With that said, I have strong opinions on 'originality'. I understand personal preference and choices. To me, painting a car a color other than it originally came, be it a factory color or not, is a reversible 'crime' (some colors being more of a crime than others mind you ). To replace the data plate, actually modifies the documentation of the history of the car, and makes it near impossible for a future restorer some generations down the road to put the car back to its historically correct condition, this to me is a 'Sin.' While one can debate the merits of many things, I personally think it absolutely wrong for any 'preservation' minded organization to promote altering the 'documentation' on a vehicle, which in my personal opinion, replacing the data tag does.<P>Well there are my two cents worth on this, brand me a purist, a fanatic, or just a fringe lunatic, but my opinions will not waiver.<P>Rich<BR><A HREF=http://www.1930Chrsyler77.com>http://www.1930Chrysler77.com</A><BR>Member AACA, WWPC

[Tom Deering]

CTCI (Classic Thunderbird Club International) is the oldest marque club dedicated to the '55-'57 Thunderbirds. They have a 300 point system for cars showing in the "Original" division with 50 of those points for authenticity. If a car is shown as "original" with another color and trim combination available that year; he can lose up to 24 % of his authenticity points. If the car is a color and trim combination that was not available that year; he can lose up to 52 % of the authenticity points. If you can't live with what the data plate says, you "show" in "Modified". I have often said that we have a 300 point system with a 1000 point deduction. And, I started judging in this club in 1975 so it is not a lack of understanding.<P> The '55-'57 Chevy folks also have rigid requirements in their original class. One of the big legal differences between Ford and G.M. products of that era is: Ford colors, equipment etc., is on the same plate as the serial number. Altering this plate might possibly have legal implications. The G.M. plate on the other hand is a secondary plate that is not used for registration or title purposes and may be a little more difficult to prosecute a forger. I don't know. It really doesn't give me heartburn in either case.<P> Tom

[66 Mystery Chevelle]

<B>The '55-'57 Chevy folks also have rigid requirements in their original class. One of the big legal differences between Ford and G.M. products of that era is: Ford colors, equipment etc., is on the same plate as the serial number.</B><P>That's a nice bit of info there Tom, so I guess a MATCHING NUMBERS car <B>WOULD</B> include the color and interior. Though I must say, I already know that.<P>Good info. guys, keep it comin.<P>Mike

[Guest]

AACA would have a terrible time trying to match data plate, fender tag, build sheet information, for all makes of cars that it judges. If it is an original color for the model or not can only be known if you have a book of reference codes and paint chips or interior swatches. And you would have to have that for every car ever made. I can see it now, here comes the judges followed by a u-haul truck full of reference materials. <P>The level of judging that occurs in places like the Mopar Nationals Original Equipment Concours class is so specialized that no more than 2 cars per day can be judged. That is why my first place at the Mopar Nats means more to me than any other "all makes" judging venue. <P>AACA has a great thing going and it would only serve to complicate and frustrate more people if you try to get into matching data plate information since the only way to match data plate codes is with printed information that is not available on the actual car. Judges can only go by what they see as they look at the car and what they know as to be original. The owner then has to provide the proof if a judge thinks something is not original to that car.<P>By the way Mystery your assumptions are some day going to get you into trouble. Your earlier reference to someone who changed a color and then matched the data plate and sold the car without telling the buyer is WRONG!!!. The buyer was informed and had no problem with it. The changing of data tag information to match the cars appearance is only accepted and promoted as mentioned earlier among GM people. Ford and Chrysler have vin information on their data plates and that makes it illegal to alter since it is tied to the VIN.

[Tom Deering]

It looks like we have a good cross-section of post-war marque clubs represented here with Mopar, G.M.,and Fomoco. It also appears that the respondents have all achieved the highest level of success within their respective marque clubs. <P>Here's the question: In our quest for writing rules and building cars that represent the best of their breed; have we raised the standard to a level that discourages others from attempting an authentic restoration? Are we damaging the breed by making a "modified class" restoration the more reasonable goal? Finally; do any of you find your participation in an AACA National or Grand National show any less enjoyable because they maintain a "more reasonable standard" (my words)?<P> Maybe the problem is more pronounced in my area of interest. I don't think we did any favors for owners of '55-'57 T-birds and Nomads. Is my guilty conscience showing?<P> Tom

[Guest]

The whole idea of matching numbers is absolute nonsense. Evidently almost all of the 1932-40 (for example) turn out to be black at POCI shows. I would never consider competition under such rules. Imagine trying to find a 1941 Buick Roadmaster sedan in Burnt Orange? There is one known to have survived in the world. Does that make it worth a million dollars when I could paint a black sedan Burnt Orange if I liked the color? I don't think so. They had a awful lot of ugly colors over the years.

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

Tom,<P>I want my restoration to be as "original looking" as possible, but I will admit to taking some short cuts. I have purchased reproduction parts to replace some of the ones that were in too bad of shape to reuse, like my bumpers and radiator shell. I could have had my old ones straightened and rechromed, but I would still be trying to pay them off.<P>Could a judge tell that I have done these things? You betcha! Do I care? Not really, because the average person will not be able to tell. I can't afford to restore my car to those standards. I am doing the best that I can with the money at hand. Even if it is not a show stopper, it will be a lot better than it was and a Hell of a lot better than letting it continue to rust into nothing. It will be one more that is saved.<P>Do the stringent judging standards keep me from doing an "authenic restoration"? Well, depending on one's definition of "authentic", yes, I suppose they do, but I don't think they should be changed. I know that my car will never win a trophy in anything other than a local show. <P>Knowing this, I might even use some phillips head screws in places that get covered by upholstery and will never show. I even intend to paint it a color that was correct for my year, but not my month of manufacture. Why? Because I like that color better than the others, and since it will never be a show winner, I can.

[Guest]

Hal, I agree with you. By the way, I own a Grand National Senior and it was done by my current next door neighbor in my garage, with some of my grunt help. It is totally 100% authentic, but it doesn't have all matching numbers. Well, I've said enough of this subject and I've gotta go do some work

[Tom Deering]

Hal & Earl,<P> You have both provided excellent examples of how the enjoyment of the hobby has been improved without the worry of satisfying the standards found in a marque club. In defense of the "number watchers", we all have to admit that rarity translates into collectability and desireability. That is a basic premise of collecting, whether it be coins,stamps, or cars. Unfortunately, the less scrupulous will build counterfeit copies of low production models. I've heard it said: "there are only 500 left of the original 209 originally built". The problem seems to be more pervasive in post-war cars, especially those built during the "muscle car" era.<P> As far as reproduction parts are concerned; I have found independently reproduced parts to conform more closely to production parts than those provided by the original manufacturer and certainly a much higher quality level. Maybe I'm lucky to have "fallen" into the right cars to have this good experience with so called "repops". Even at that, I can think of certain underhood items that I've had to fabricate because the available parts didn't appear authentic enough. My main point in case it's too obscure, is this: The AACA Nationals and Grand National shows with their more relaxed standards are every bit as enjoyable to me as the Marque club shows. <P> Tom

[rodlars]

Tom<P>I also agree with your statement regarding the AACA judging philosophy. Keeping in mind that a Senior or Grand National winner still represents a stunning restoration in all cases, I must say that I do enjoy the competetive atmosphere set by the AACA. It still takes a hell of a nice car to win but there is no need to be detailing with Q-tips for hours upon end or worrying about proper date codes on your wiper motor or fuel pump. Don't get me wrong though, I fully appreciate a vehicle that is correctly restored to startospheric levels. Living next to Detroit, MI, I have the opportunity to spectate at a number of national meets which roll through the area each summer and am just astounded at the high level of restoration acheived by some individuals. After taking a swipe at the concours circuit with a midyear Vette and a Mopar muscle car, I have found that cruising and just having fun with a car are more my thing. What I enjoy about the AACA is the fact that a car can be driven and still remain competitive at the national level.

[Dave@Moon]

Let's see;<P>I'm so enthralled by a color combination or interior choice that I'm going to manufacture a history for my vehicle so as to, somehow, legitimize my choice in the eyes of some people who <I>may</I> not otherwise approve of my choice based on a set of standards I apparantly don't adhere to anyway, or else I'd have never considered the change in the first place. Whew! <P>There are some aspects of this hobby that sometimes make me feel a little dirty.<P>It strikes me as very odd that this concept would be accepted (I'm speaking of creating a false trim tag) in the POCI of all organizations. Pontiac, as I understand it, is the only marque for which large quantities of original documentation exists for vehicle build specs. I remember an article in <I>Cars & Parts</I> about 10 years ago that reported on the POCI's results in their documentation service using Pontiac's files. In that article the percentages of falsified GTO's were staggering, in some categories >50%! I specifically remember that they'd checked out 5 1971 GTO Judges at that point, all of which were fakes.<P><B>What is the point of trying to make an invented car (i.e. one that wasn't originally made as it currently appears), and have it be blessed as "authenitc" at the same time?</B><P>If you want a purple Grand Prix, fine. So what. <P>If your white GTO just has to be green like the one in <I>Two Lane Blacktop</I>, great. Go for it!<P>But what could it possibly gain you, the POCI, or anyone else to have the data plate on those cars modified so that, at best, 12 guys at the next major car show you attend <I>might</I> mistake it for "original"? I'm not a major stickler for originality, cars aren't sacred. But this stinks. <p>[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: Dave@Moon ]

[Guest]

Rodlars I drove my Grand National Senior 18 years and 10K miles between the Grand National First and the Senior. For the first number of years, there was no such thing as a Grand National Senior. <BR>Another point is that I do not agree with taking a 1938 Special convertible body and putting it on a 1938 Century chassis and using the Century front end. That, to me, is in fact a counterfeit car. This way you're building a car that didn't exist. However, to not allow the owner to pick out a trim and color combination that is authentic and pleasing is ridiculous. Similarly, the use of sidemounts or skirts or a spotlight that is genuine and could have been bought with the car from the manufacturer is, in my opinion, absolutely ok. <BR>I've been in this hobby since I started reading "Classic Comments" in Motor Trend in 1951 at age 13. Most of what AACA adheres to has been developed over 50 years or more. It has stood the test of time.

[Ron Green]

Deering, You are correct in the fact that the goal for a lot of cars in the POCI points judge show will be the modified class if they elect not to change the data plates. This will include your AACA Grand National Senior and National Award winners if a factory color does not match the data plate.<P>Dynaflash, There are many odd and ugly factory colors that were available from all the manufactures. Many of these may be lost in history if the owners elect to point judge there vehicles in the POCI annual national show as more of the common colors were produced and are around today. We have all been drawn to a car that had a oddball paint job. It would be boring if all the vehicles would be the blacks, reds, whites, etc.<P>Dave Moon, Pontiac Historical Services provides ($35)information, build sheets, etc on Pontiac years 61 thru 85. Prior to 61 all records are lost due to a fire I believe? As you know changing data plates on these years will really mess up the cars history forever. You mentioned the GTO's, there are probably more GTO's on the road today then were manufactured.<P>The AACA has a relaxed and fun atmosphere at there shows that is hard to beat. I am glad I became a member. The AACA can only gain from bone headed decisions made by other clubs as the members get fed up with the few making the rules.

[Guest]

Ron: I don't want any car with ugly colors, nor would I want to be forced to have one. I had an ugly original colored '40 Pontiac, that had been repainted a still uglier color, and I restored it 100% and made it a beautiful bright blue they had that year. I'm restoring a '71 Riviera now that was Chestnut Brown (weren't 90% that color <smile>, which I find especially ugly. It will be Bamboo Cream or Antique Red (haven't decided) when finished. Sorry, I can't buy the number plate idea. Now I'd like it black, but they didn't offer the '71 Rivvy in black. A guy might have to look all his life for a 39 Buick that was originally Glacier Blue and never find one, while finding a thousand '39 Buicks, or a 39 Buick convertible with a cream interior. I've only ever seen one since I was sixteen. It makes no sense...that's why there are color and trim books. Well, enuff said. I'm old and mostly a pre-war GM nut, and set in my ways I guess. I think I'll bow out of the discussion.

[Guest]

Earl ~ Lewis told me that before his father could accept the order for that Burnt Orange Roadmaster sedan, the factory required that he get a substantial advance on the car, because once it was ordered it was his, no ifs, ands or buts. It is probable that it was the only one built. ~ Howard