Starter tech help

[38Buick 80C]

Ok I've run the new main wiring harness for my 38 Buick, charged the battery, turned the ignition on, pressed the pedal....click...nothing..

After further investigation the starter solenoid seems to be working properly as it engages and the lever moves, but the starter itself does not engage (spin). If i cross the terminals with a wrench the starter will spin. All the wiring is per the manual and looks to be correct. The engine is free and is not seized (I spun it by hand to be sure).

My thoughts are could be low battery voltage, but I hooked up the battery charger to 6-volt start mode so that shouldn't be the issue.

Next thought is poor ground of the starter to ??? wherever it grounds.

Oh yeah the starter and solenoid were rebuilt about 3-4 years ago and put on the shelf until they were ready for install and have never been used until now.

So any ideas or tests I can do to eliminate possible causes. Thanks in advance

[Joseph P. Indusi]

I would remove the solenoid and carefully take it apart. I know you said it was rebuilt, and it may sound like it is working, but it is not pulling the internal contacts together to power the starter. By placing a wrench across the starter terminals you are doing what the solenoid is supposed to do. There should be bright metal contacts inside and a new copper washer on the solenoid plunger. You can test this on the bench with a battery to be sure the solenoid plunger moves correctly to allow the copper washer to contact both of the fixed contacts.

Joe, BCA 33493

[Mark Shaw]

Check your vacuum switch to be sure it is allowing ignition. Also, the throttle rod may have to be adjusted (shorter) to make it start....

[Patrick W. Brooks]

Good Morning: The first step is to take a voltmeter and see what it reads at various locations along the electrical path. This will tell you what the volt load is and where the loss of voltage is happening. Begin with the battery POST itself and then put the contacts on the battery CABLE to see if there is a loss of current between the two. Believe it or not this oftern happens, even after cleaning, and this will tell you without a doubt. Then go on to the starter. If there is juice to the starter juice is flowing through the ignition from the battery. You can also check at the ignition under the dash if you want and the starter switch attached to the carb. Start chasing it down instead of trying to fix something before you know if electricity (juice) is getting to the part. Good luck. Patrick W. Brooks:D

[jeff]

I would need to pull out the schematic to be sure, but if I am not mistaken, your regulator is supposed to provide the ground path for the starter solenoid. This was one of the safeguards for the throttle starting system - as the engine came up to speed, the voltage at the regulator was coming up, and would open a set of contacts, disrupting the path to ground (so the starter wouldn't keep cranking).

If you no longer have the five terminal regulator, and have replaced it with a four or three terminal, you have to accomodate this function. I ran the wire that would have gone to the regulator to a push button under the dash. Someone else wrote in to suggest that you can permanently ground it, as was done in '39 (I can't confirm this). Seems to me that approach would eliminate one of the safeties - but maybe it was just a redundancy anyway.

Jeff

[Joseph P. Indusi]

From what I understand the armature terminal of the generator actually provides the ground return for the starter relay coil. If you look on the regualtor you see there is a heavy wire to the ARM terminal on the generator. With the generator not spinning the armature is at ground potential; once the engine starts the armature is now at +6 volts and not ground so the starter relay cannot energize and close it's points. When the relay is energized (engine not spinning) it's points close and energize the starter solenoid that then engages the starter drive gear and provides current to the starter motor.

This is a system with several parts: Ignition switch, carburetor switch, relay, solenoid and then starter motor.

What I describe above is for post-war Buicks. There may be variations of this for the pre-war models.

Joe, BCA 33493

[38Buick 80C]

Well here is the update.

I took the starter back to the folks who rebuilt it and it had a dirty contact in the starter, but other than that all was well again. I put it back on the car and tried again....

NO LUCK

It's like the battery is dead, but I have 6.6 volts across the terminals and I am using the battery charger in 6 volt start mode which outputs 8.8 volts, so I don't know.

It was Valentine's day so I turn off everything and I'll come back to it again this weekend. I'll let y'all know.

[Guest captbrian38]

Brian, I had a similar problem with the starter on my '38 Special. It would spin when bench tested but put it in the car and nothing. Sent it back to Cars Inc. and they said it was OK. Got it back, put it in the car and nothing. Turned out to be the insulation material on the terminals for the switch wires and when the the solonoid cover was put on it would ground out and nothing would work. Once I tried it with the cover off it worked I realized the insulation problem and increased the size of the battery leads to 00 wire and off it went. Had the engine rebuilt in New Bern, NC at CAMS and now it is a strong runner.

captbrian38,

Brian in Arapahoe, NC

[38Buick 80C]

Thanks Brian I check that out this weekend,

BD

[38Buick 80C]

OK Dad was in town. I showed him what was going on. He thinks the motor is too tight and that is why it's not working. He suggested disconnecting everything else and throwing 12 volts at it to get the motor to spin and then break it in.

Tried that and still same issue it throws out the gear and it then the starter doesn't spin I just get a humming out of it. Again like it engages with the flywheel but the fly wheel wont turn. It's out of gear and rear wheels are up in the air just in case.

Again a couple years ago before I had the wiring harness I jimmy rigged it and it spun the motor no problem. Now it won't, but I can spin the motor by hand by using a breaker bar on the crank nut.

I'm gonna put some marvel mystery oil in the cylinders. Any other suggestions?

[Guest WEB 38]

Try it with the spark plugs out, That will take a load off it, and give you hint if the motor is to tight. Bill WEB 38

[unimogjohn]

Brian, are you saying that the engine is locked up, and the starter may not be the issue?

My 1923 McLaughlin Buick's engine was locked tight, tried everything to break it loose to include dragging it through the pasture and stuff like Marvel Mystery Oil, ATF, Blaster, WD40, etc . Finally, tried Kroil and it finally released after a week of soaking. Turned out it was a pencil lead line of rust between the cylinder wall and the rings of just one cylinder.

I would think that if you can hear humming coming from the starter it is working, but cannot spin. I think it would be worth it to take out the starter and bench test it.

[38Buick 80C]

John,

No it's not locked up because I can spin the engine by putting a breaker bar on the harmonic damper nut. It's like the stater doesn't have enough oomph to spin it.

The start has been bench tested as of a week ago and works.

Bill I will try taking the plugs out thanks.

Brian

[garnetkid]

If that is a newly rebuilt engine and has sat for some time it is likely to be very tight and just needs to be run to loosen it up. I would pull start it and break the engine in and try the starter then.

[38Buick 80C]

What do you mean by "pull start it"?

[Larry Schramm]

A rope/chain and another car to tow it to start it. Just be careful that you have a long enough tow strap so if it does start you do not hit the car towing you.

[Guest WEB 38]

Brian I wouldnt jerk start it by pushing or towing untill you are sure the rebuild is absolutely mechanicly correct to insure not do any internal damage. Better safe than sorry . Bill WEB 38

[Guest captbrian38]

Hi Brian, again it sounds like all the probems I had and straightened out with heavy battery cables. I even tried push starting at about 20 mph and popped the clutch in third to see if that would help. Check to see if the exhaust is clear also. Back pressure from a closed butterfly heat riser in the exhaust manifold made my engine seem very tight after the rebuild and after dropping the engine pipe and looking up with a mirror I saw mine was closed. Must have operated the first time I ran the rebuilt engine and then closed and jammed after the engine cooled off. I pryed it open and the engine spun over like crazy and finally started. Lots of discussion here on the forum about it last April and May.

Brian

[Guest captbrian38]

Hey Brian, give me a a call if you want to discuss this, I had a lot of the same problems, 917 699-0409

Brian

[Guest 41Super]

I had 1941 starter rebuilt and it would click on but not engage, worked great out of the car. Turns out the wrong gear was installed and did not match with the fly wheel, just banged up against it.

[38Buick 80C]

Capt, I will call eventually I have family in town, though, so it'll be when I get some free moments.

41 super, previously (a year or two ago) after the rebuild the starter did in fact work and engage properly, so probably not the gear, but I appreciate the brainstorming.

[38Buick 80C]

Ok I got away from the in-law enough to play some more.

I have the motor spinning via the starter, slowly and not enough to fire it or even make it cough, but I am trilled at spinning right now.

Best i can tell one of the follwing to things has resulted in getting spin.

1. Marvel Mystery Oil in the cylinders.

2. And i have to thank my insurance company, Hagerty, for this one. I got my Hargerty newsletter and this article caught my eye. Losses and Lessons: Battery blowout in a 1934 Plymouth - Hagerty Lifestyle. I had been keeping my battery on a battery tender and I guess my youth caught up with me, because I grew up with maintenance free batteries, it never occurred to me that I would have to top off my battery due to evaporation. So I topped off my battery.

I suspect the battery not being topped off while reading 6.6 volts was not generating enough current to spin the motor. Since the motor is still turning slowly, I suspect the battery might still be in need of a charge or replacement.

I'm gonna let it charge and see if I can get it to fire the motor.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

[Guest outlaw car man]

I'll be heading into that situation in a couple months. My starter was bench tested last year, worked fine.

With an old battery, I'd get a surge, then nothing, but it's a 8 year old Optimia, works for testing lights. Haven't messed with it to much.

Tight engine- have you thought of removing the plugs and try the starter.

My drive train was rebuilt 20 years ago + and fired once. I cleaned the engine out with kerosene, let sit for a week, drained for two weeks, new oil, then hand cranked it with no plugs and a shot of Marvel in each cylinder.

. As far as I've got so far. I've done this before with a 1933 Pontiac, worked OK. An old thing I've been doing for years with old cars.

Just a thought-

How are you doing with your situation-

[jbbuick22]

What is the battery voltage when cranking?? That tells you the condition of the battery.

If low check volt drops on each leg + and -

JB

22-6-55 Sport Touring

[38Buick 80C]

OK got a new Optima 6V maintenance free battery. Eventually I'll get the right one for the car for shows but a nice maintenance free one will be good for now. Amazon, 139 free shipping and got here in three days...beats the auto parts store that wanted $50 more and over a week to get here.

Motor spins great now, lots of speed. I have spark (checked via timing light), fuel delivery....not sure yet. Have to test more. But no firing up yet, but we have progress and progress is good.