Guest tdebuys Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Ok guys, the newbie is back. I'm coming along slowly but steadily with more than a little help from various kind folks here. Now I am looking at the gaping hole in my roof. There are specially shaped wood cross pieces that are seemingly all in their proper place along with a very nicely attached chicken wire. There is a what looks like a ground wire attached to the chicken wire and a place where it looks like a light might have been attached. Other than that I'm looking at the stars. What comination of materials goes in the hole? I found a rubber gasket for sale that goes inside the very well designed slot that runs around the hole, and I've seen some metal inserts for sale that are all the wrong size, but I thought these holes were filled with something covered with vinyl or rubber? Ok ok, I know I'm an idiot but the information on this hole is not in either of my Plymouth manuals. So please send me off in the right direction to solve this new problem.I'm having a ball... all be it an expensive ball, but none the less I'm actually starting to see these cars come back to life, and I, the totally inept with a mechanical aptitude of like 4 is doing this with just your help ! Thanks, Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 (edited) The top material should be a layer of cotton batting over the chicken wire and then vinyl on top of that with a molded tack strip sort of affair to hold the edges down. The vinyl must be stretched fairly tight so that wind cannot get under it whilst moving down the highway. And no....you are not an idiot. I know that my 1936 Dodge had a metal insert in the top, but I am not sure if Plymouth had that by 1936. Edited October 31, 2009 by keiser31 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tdebuys Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 OK, if there is chickenwire there and the wood cross-member pcs., could I correctly assume that it probably didn't have a metal insert, but had the batten/vinyl top instead? Or, would they have still installed the chickenwire/wood pcs. with a metal top insert ? And, what was this all about anyhow, saving steel? Kind of a weird design if you ask me.Thanks for the help, Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 I believe it was all about not having the technology/equipment to stamp out a piece of steel that size/shape before 1936 for the Chrysler products. I also believe you are correct about the top being vinyl if the slats are there. I don't think my '36 Dodge with the steel insert had the wood slats and wire. If you are talking about the "ground wire" in the car, which car...you say 1934 & 1936? Whichever car, it was probably to a dome light that someone has removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest elmo39 Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Tom try this site ,Page 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ply33 Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 keiser31 has it almost right. There is no tack strip around the edge, the material is wrapped around the metal edges and tacked to the wood frame on the bottom side. The whole insert is put together then installed into the hole in the top of the body. For the general assembly, see my web site at: 1933 Plymouth Roof InstallationAnd the attached to the top insert is the radio antenna lead. Properly installed the chicken wire is electrically isolated from the body as was supposed to act as an AM radio antenna. At least for 1933, and I assume for later years, all Plymouths came from factory with this wire. Radios were dealer installed but the advertising touted that the cars were pre-wired for radio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hwellens Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Had a 35 Plymouth and the top material was held in a grove around the edge with a rubber gasket about 1/2" x 3/4. This was tapped in with a rubber hammer. You got 4 short pieces to hold the corners to start and removed them as you worked the long gasket around the top. See attached from the 35 Plymouth maintenance manual.Plymouth top.PDF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tdebuys Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 WOW guys, thanks ! Ok I've read what you said, and I read all the stuff at the places you sent me and I think I have this figured out. I have located all the parts necessary, but one. I went and read the judging details for Plymouths and they really don't tell me if there is a particular vinyl to get other than Basic Black. So, I'm not sure if the vinyl has to have a pattern, be wavy line vinyl, or flat vinyl. So, it's back to you ..... if you can direct me .... I'm searching for the answer and will see what I can find on my own, but if ya got hints I'd love to know. I'd hate to put on the wrong thing now we have me straightened out on what goes there. OH and REALLY cool about the radio "PLY33". In the 36 car I found the radio with the little dial section that fits into the dash and then traced it back to a BEHEMOTH Motorola radio box and the bracket the holds it. One of my future questions was gonna have to be about how to, or more poignatly, where to put an antenna.... NOW I KNOW, the bleedin thing is already there.. How utterly awesome! I don't imagine the radio will work, but just having the original radio in the car is kinda neat...and then in my wildest dreams if it would work.. that would be really cool. Thanks again on the roof help, I'm on it. Thanks to you guys I should be able to complete the task. So until next time, Thanks folks, you are the best! Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hwellens Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 My 35 Plymouth top insert material was flat; no pattern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tdebuys Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Thank hwellens, the 4 corner pcs followed by the main filler seems like a really good way to proceed. So, I'm off to see what I can see about buying the stuffins for the hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bill-W Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 The top material was originally rubber - no vinyl back in 1930's. Until the mid-thirties there was no steel stamping equipment large enough to handle a roof. GM was the first to have a one-piece steel top on its new 1935 bodies for Chevrolet, Pontiac, Oldsmobile and LaSalle. GM pushed them as "Turret Top". The rest of the body was still sheet steel over a wood frame, though. GM was the last to switch to all-steel bodies.For 1936 virtually every other manufacturer came out with a steel insert for the roof. I know Ford didn't and I think Willys was also a hold out. Chrysler, Ford, Willys, and Nash all had new bodies for 1937 - all with a one-piece steel roof. Buick and Cadillac got "Turret Top" bodies for 1936.BillVancouver, BC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tdebuys Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 Interesting commentary Bill, I wouldn't have suspected it was a machine limitation. It just kind of changes one's perspective on history. I mean you are just 6 years away from WWII and you can't stamp out a pc of metal big enough to make a auto roof ? Oh, maybe it was the equipment existed, but the auto industry wouldn't invest in it? Its an intriguing commentary on American industrial development either way. This is why I'm glad I started messing with old cars, I'm learning about a lot of other things I never bothered to consider, and from some really great people. "Why the holes in roofs?" I just never gave it a thought.And the chickenwire radio antenna just seems ingeneous to me... Maybe I'm just easily impressed, but some of the old timer's practical thinking is amazing to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tdebuys Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 OH, BillW.... question.... If rubber is the correct top, would I be better off to use a pcs of this new rubber roofing? It's now available at several chain hardware stores. I don't want to get the car knocked for not using vinyl, but rubber is easily available now. What do you think?I used some rubber roofing on a commercial building and it seemed to work exceptionally well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ply33 Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 My 35 Plymouth top insert material was flat; no patternBased on some vintage photographs I believe that it true for 1933 & 34 too. However I was unable to find flat rubberized fabric when I did my roof so it has a non-authentic patterned top material more suitable for things like a Model A Ford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 (edited) It was the steel mills. The sheet metal they turned out was not wide enough to make a whole roof in one piece. Then, in 1934, they built the first rolling mill big enough to mass produce the wide sheets of steel.GM was the first to invest in the big stamping press to make a one piece roof. Even they did not have the capacity to make all their cars that way, the standard Chev had a roof insert, only the deluxe model got the one piece roof. If you examine your Plymouth closely you should see the seams where the roof is welded together.Some luxury cars had one piece roofs laboriously made in small sections, welded together, the seams filled with lead body solder, and hand filed and sanded to perfection. Senior Packard bodies were made this way. The Cord Beverly sedan was made this way, the roof was made up of 7 pieces of metal all welded together and finished by hand. A Cord cost twice as much as a Cadillac V8.Your radio can be restored by an old time radio repair man believe it or not. The tubes are still available most are $5 to $15 apiece. The capacitors are the big problem, they are all past their best before date by now but new ones are available for 35 cents to $2 apiece. You need somewhere around 10 or 20 of them.There is a lot of hand work involved so it can cost a couple hundred $$$ bucks. But it is worth it for the original tube radio sound. You will be surprised how well it works, probably better than a new AM car radio. Too bad there are so few AM stations worth listening to. But there are ways around that too. Edited November 2, 2009 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 The original top material was an artificial rubber on a canvas backing. Vinyl top material is the closest thing available today. A good auto upholstery shop that does vinyl tops should be able to help you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tdebuys Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 (edited) Hey Rusty -- Thanks for the info. This has turned out to be a most interesting lesson in both car repair and industrial history. I think my idea on the rubber roofing is worth a try even if it doesn't work out since it would be very close to the original product. If it fails I'll go to vinyl, but before I posted here I didn't even know what went in the hole. So, thanks for the info. As for the radio, I'll start looking for somewhere to get it fixed. I didn't find anyone in the local yellow pages, but maybe one of these ham radio guys around here will know someone. I'd sure love to get it operational. Thanks for giving me hope that it might crackle and pop out music once again. My favorite thing of all is to ride along in a vintage car and mentally drift back in time. I'm sure the radio will just add to the experience. OH, and I found something else in the 36 car I forgot to mention. Maybe someone has some experience with them, its a Hadees car heater. It has a chromed face with a butterfly flap on the front, I assume the flap is to control or direct the heat. I don't see any controls on it other than the face flap. I wonder if there is a shutoff under the hood, I'll have to go look. I just thought of that. Well guys, thanks for the conversation, information, history lesssons, and directions. I hope you all have a great day! I know you made mine a little brighter! Edited November 2, 2009 by tdebuys (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 There is a guy here in NW Oregon that does these radios. Post here if you would like me to get his info. I can never remember his name but he lives about two miles from me. A great guy and does good work. I run into him at the swap meets selling his old Juke Boxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tdebuys Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 Hi Jack M, I dropped the radio off this morning at a young man's house here locally that says he thinks he can fix it. So, if he can't I'll post here and hope you can respond. I sincerely appreciate your kind offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ply33 Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 ...snip... OH, and I found something else in the 36 car I forgot to mention. Maybe someone has some experience with them, its a Hadees car heater. It has a chromed face with a butterfly flap on the front, I assume the flap is to control or direct the heat. I don't see any controls on it other than the face flap. I wonder if there is a shutoff under the hood, I'll have to go look. ...snip...The Hadees heater was an after market accessory. I've seen them advertised in automotive trade magazines from the 1933-6 time frame. At least I've seen the one that is in my car from magazines of that era. There were a couple of different models. If yours has chromed doors then it is probably the deluxe version. I'll try to dig up the magazine sometime and scan an ad.Since it was an aftermarket heater the chances are that there is wide variation on how it was installed. On mine there was an adaptor to get water out of the block at the temperature sensing bulb location. And there was a valve built into the hose connection that screws onto the heater inlet pipe.Mine also has a on/off rheostat switch that is illuminated by a #63 light bulb when on. The knob is a yellow/ivory color and has a red rubylith piece behind a embossed metal piece with a devil figure. So the little fellow glows red when the heater is on.Be advised that the AACA will deduct for non-factory accessories if you have the car judged. On the other hand, the Plymouth Owners Club will give you bonus points. So pick your club and desired activities when deciding to keep the heater or not. I typically do touring so I restored my heater and have it operational.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tdebuys Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 (edited) HI PLY33, Absolutely AWESOME light LOL,, I HAVE TO FIND ONE! IF you do have the ad for it I'd love a copy... you bet! I need to replumb my Hadees, but I don't see it being too big a problem. I have another 36 motor which has just the perfect shut-off valve for me to use just sitting on the engine. YES I did read the different concerns of the two organizations, and I think the PLYMOUTH CLUB will suit my interests as far as showing or judging my car goes. Edited November 3, 2009 by tdebuys (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ply33 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 I've found a four page ad spread for the Hadees heater in the July 1935 issue of Automobile Digest. I'll try to find time in the next few days to get the scanner on my wife's computer working again (broke during a recent operating system upgrade) and then scan the ad pages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tdebuys Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 WOW! I've never ever seen this product till now, let alone an ad for it. That ad spread would be something very special to have. Usually such ads are quite interesting, and certainly make having the product more fun. I'm keeping a kind of offhand scrapbook on these cars; about things I learn from having the cars, the changes I make in them, and think it might all be useful to have someday. I don't know. But if you get time to copy the ads it would sure be appreciated. It might make an interesting little static display to have at a car show. HADEES is such an appropriate name for a heater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ply33 Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 WOW! I've never ever seen this product till now, let alone an ad for it. That ad spread would be something very special to have. Usually such ads are quite interesting, and certainly make having the product more fun. I'm keeping a kind of offhand scrapbook on these cars; about things I learn from having the cars, the changes I make in them, and think it might all be useful to have someday. I don't know. But if you get time to copy the ads it would sure be appreciated. It might make an interesting little static display to have at a car show. HADEES is such an appropriate name for a heater.Hear you go. These are really big scans. The printed page is about 8.5x11 inches so if you scale them back to that when you print them the will be close to life size. The magazine is "perfect bound" so I could not get it to lay flat so the scans are not perfect by any stretch of the imagination.http://www.ply33.com/temp/hadees_1.jpghttp://www.ply33.com/temp/hadees_2.jpghttp://www.ply33.com/temp/hadees_3.jpghttp://www.ply33.com/temp/hadees_4.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tdebuys Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 AWESOME! LOL I love it!!! Oh these scans are fine...I'll work them over in my photoshop type JASC program and they'll be very usable for me. I never ever saw any of these ads so this is a treat. I think these ads would make a great display at a car show, particularly since most people just take a car heater for granted. What a grand conversation point. I gotta find one of these little devil button/control knobs... That is just really special. Thanks ever so much.. you made my day. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 The closest thing to the original top material is the stuff they use for vinyl tops. The original was not rubber, it was an artificial leather material related to oilcloth. It is no longer made but the vinyl top material is the closest you can find.Rubber was not used for top inserts. Some expensive convertible tops used Haartz cloth which was made of rubber sandwiched between 2 layers of canvas. But I never heard of this being used for top inserts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tdebuys Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 ****SSSSSCCCCRRRREEEAAAACCCHHHHHH!!!*** (Slamming on Brakes) Well, hmmmmmm ok, now this does present a minor problem. I need to listen and then research a bit further I guess. I distinctly heard someone say they used rubber on the roofs in 1930's, and therefore I thought that the new rubber roofing material would be just perfect... but noooooooo, now that has been corrected. Getting ahold of either material is easy, but the pattern in the two different materials is miles apart, the rubber is just that, flat black rubber; but the vinyl has a design embossed (probably wrong term) into it. Squiggley line kinda things. I was thinking, "oh cool, now I can use rubber roofing material and be as close to original as possible" ,, well you ** Popped** that balloon. Sooooo back to drawing board, or should I say research books, etc. HELP! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Braverman Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 (edited) The roof on both of my cars is vinyl with what is called Cobra grain. Easy to get from Bill Hirsch. As for the radio antenna, the wire that you thought was a ground is actually an antenna wire to allow the chicken wire to function as an antenna. The wire should run down to the right front kick panel area. Most cars of the era were so-equipped.The car in the pics is my Franklin. I haven't done the Plymouth roof yet. Edited November 7, 2009 by Steve Braverman (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tdebuys Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Yep I think we're clear on the antenna, though there are also wires for a dome light. I believe I can tell the two apart easy enough. The radio is in the shop and whether it will be fixed or not is yet to be seen. *fingers crossed* If Bill Hirsch will sell me some top material then fantastic! (psst who is Bill Hirsch?) I do want to thank everyone for their posts even though some of them may be more correct than others. It is up to me to satisfy myself on what I am going to do with the information, and I want to make it clear that all information helps. If nothing else, when it conflicts it shows I need to proceed with caution and perhaps research a bit better on my own. I refuse to believe that anyone gave me less than the best knowledge they had, and I appreciate it. So far everyone has been just grand, and I've gotten so much more information that I ever expected. In the end my car is just that, "my car." While I'd like to have it as correct as possible if I screw up, then I'll learn, fix it, and move on. I've had so many wonderful suggestions about where to find and get particular parts, pcs., and some services that I'm amazed. People taking time to find, copy, and post old ads for me; people giving me source info, and reinforcing or decrying ideas that have come up. How cool is this? It's fun, it's entertaining, informing, and a heck of a lot of help. Thanks folks!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tdebuys Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 OK Found the Bill Hirsch site.... I'm on it... LOL.Told ya all I'm a newbie ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Braverman Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 (edited) Remember, opinions are like, well.. you know, everyone has one.The top material from Bill Hirsch with the black backing is better than the stuff with the white backing from LeBaron Bonney and others. My opinion.BTW, the material is not on Bill Hirsch's web site, but he has it. You will have to call. I got mine from him last Summer. Edited November 8, 2009 by Steve Braverman (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tdebuys Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 LOL Steve you don't know how helpful your note was. I was looking at the Hirsch site and I'm going , but but but but but there is no top material listed here ... I thought I had totally lost it. Also I found definitions, explanations, and information on the site listed below to be pretty interesting. The Haartz Corporation - Current Material Options - For Vintage Car Tops I found it because of the reference to the Hartz Cloth being used on convertible roofs. The Hartz people go into great detail to explain about roofing materials. An interesting read.Thanks, TDE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 (edited) "Oilcloth of the kind used on pre-1940 vehicles for fixed roofs seems to have vanished from the commercial market.""Some of the vinyl coated fabrics presently on the market provide suitable material for replicating old tops of surface-coated materials. For rubber or pyroxylin materials from prior to 1940, vinyls with similar embossed grains are well accepted. "That's what I was trying to say.If you can find a swatch anywhere on your car, it may be possible to find a similar modern vinyl top material at your local auto upholstery shop.Is there any of the original material left even a little piece? Edited November 8, 2009 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tdebuys Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Alas Rusty the hole in my roof is cleaner than a fresh picked hen's nest. Just the chicken wire and wood staves remain. As suggested, I'm gonna call the Hirsch people tomorrow and see what they recommend. Equipped with all the installation ideas I got from the folks on here I should be able to "get'er done" as that comedian says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 An auto upholstery shop should be able to help if you get stuck, it will be similar to installing a vinyl top.Upholstery supply shops also have the original type cotton padding. It is still used in some types of upholstery. It comes in a roll. You unroll it on the chicken wire and where it overlaps, tear it don't cut it. This gives a smoother overlap.Cover the cotton with muslin stapled to the wood around the edge. Adjust the padding with knitting needles until you have a smooth surface then install the vinyl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tdebuys Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 Ok, I will follow your directions Rusty. I am going to be sidetracked for a few days since I knocked an 80 sq. ft. hole in an interior wall in my building today to open up another room so I can get all the cars inside before winter. Of course the two buildings aren't on the same level for some reason so I'm going to have to put in some kind of ramp. Going to try and find the end of an old car hauler trailer since I don't want to pour a 12" high concrete ramp. When I'm done I hope to have added about 8,000 sq. ft. of garage including a paint booth and sanding room. This building is over 100 years old, and has the old support posts so it's a challenge to move cars about in it. I do surely love those 4-wheel dollies. As soon as I get the remodel done it's back to working on the Plymouths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 I have this book from Fisher body. It shows top material installation. Send me your email address and I will email you a copy of each page that pertains to top installation. They (car makes) were similar in installation techniques. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tdebuys Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 Very NICE ! Thanks I sent you my email address. Pictures are always good....heh! You folks are awesome in the help department! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest broker-bob Posted February 6, 2010 Share Posted February 6, 2010 I have a 36 plymouth I have restored when I got it I think there was what looked a canvas with some kind of coating on top-------------there is a moulding that fitts into a kind of trouff that is around the out side of opening and is held in be small nails --I found a material that seems to be a rubber or vinyl made for this purpose ridges all through in lays on the chicken wire and in the trouff I think I first put some sealant then the moulding it looks good and does not leak I used thin pieces of insulation in between wood ribbs then new head liner-------BR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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