Carburetor Problems!????

[R W Burgess]

Here's what I've got;

A 1929 Essex with a 6 cylinder engine. The vacuum tank has been disconnected. It has a electric fuel pump installed inline to the carburator.

It also has a adjustable pressure valve installed right behind the pump. The engine runs very sluggest (probably more than one problem).

I will attach two pictures, the first here showing the pump and the regulator. The problem is that gas is running out of the top of the carburator. I have turned the regulator back to position 1.

Wayne

[R W Burgess]

The pictures attached here shows the right side of the engine with the carburetor in question.

The second picture shows the part of the carburetor the gasoline is coming out of.... the top of the float box, I'd assume. I'm wondering if the float seat is bad? I realize that an electric fuel pump can overrun the float seat, but I have turned the regulator down (counterclockwise) to position 1. The gas still runs out, but not as bad.

This is going to sound stupid guys, but I need this car running this weekend for the Vintage Tour, so I'm sure you're asking yourself, "Why did this fool wait so long to fix this?" I'm wondering that too myself, at this point.

Thanks for any help!

Wayne

Edited October 20, 2009 by R W Burgess (see edit history)

[R W Burgess]

Wife just asked why that "red looking hose" looked twisted???? (Generator attachment device, whatever you call it. Yeah, I know it needs replacement>)

Hey woman, one problem cure at a time.

Wayne

[Guest Bluesky636]

Wayne,

Have you actually measured the fuel pressure? Do you have any idea what "1" on the regulator represents? Even a modern carb needs only about 7 psi. Could the float have a pinhole leak and is therefore not "floating?"

[hchris]

You should be able to adjust the level of the float in the carb to stop this problem; ie by lowering the level at which the float causes the needle and seat to shut off incoming fuel.

Of course this is dependent on other factors as mentioned :

1. the ability of the needle to hold closed against fuel pump pressure

2. the serviceability of needle/seat assembly

3. the float condition ( not holed )

[carbking]

Blue Sky is on the right track.

You might be very surprised at a reading of a pressure gauge inserted between the regulator and the carburetor. I know I was when we were testing these dial type regulators.

Jon.

[R W Burgess]

Bill, I have not checked the actual pressure, so the answer is, no!

I also talked with a few friends tonight about this, plus, I've got another motor head coming by tomorrow morning. I think I will restart the car tomorrow, then cut the regulater all the way off, to see if it is operating normally(stopping the fuel flow).

Then, we'll probably take the carburetor apart and check the needle/seat, plus the jets to make sure there is no varnish problem.

I'll let you know how this turns out.

Wayne

[R W Burgess]

On another note, the Hudson/Essex forum suggested that I call Dave Kostansek. 7902 Route 7 of Williamsfield, Ohio 44093. 440-293-4079 for ignition parts.

I caught up with him today and he shipped me parts today. A very knowledgeable gentleman. In speaking with him and relating my power problems, he indicated that the engine could have the timing chain off one tooth, which would require me to take the front timing cover off to reset it. I certainly hope this is not the case. This engine is very sluggish.

More tomorrow.

Wayne

[MCHinson]

Wayne, you better get that thing fixed fast!

Now, I am just an old Model A Ford guy so what do I know.... I would suggest that cleaning out everything in the carburetor and testing the float for a leak might be in order. Do you know how to test the carb float for a leak? If not, call or PM me and I will tell you what I know about carburetors.

Also, While I have no experience with vaccum tanks, if you do a little bit of searching here on the forum, there are some recent good explanations about cleaning a vaccum tank and getting it working like it did originally. If you get the vaccum tank working correctly you will eliminate the potential of overpressure from your aftermarket fuel pump.

Good luck friend!

[Dave@Moon]

I would suggest that cleaning out everything in the carburetor and testing the float for a leak might be in order.

A bad float was my first thought as well.

I don't know what brand fuel pump you have, but if you look at the paperwork that came with it (or on the manufacturer's web site) you can probably find a pressure spec for it's settings. Unless you bought a pump intended for a fuel injected car (an unlikely 6V find), I can't imagine that it's lowest setting would be too much for a functioning carb of almost any type.

[R W Burgess]

Matt, I'll have to see what kind of float I have before answering your first question. Your seond question? I agree, I'd prefer the vacuum tank working. Everything is still there, but we'll use what we have first. If I get in a jam I'll call you.

Thanks!

Wayne

[carbking]

Wayne - haven't checked recently, but parts to rebuild vacuum tanks used to be available from the Antique Auto Parts Cellar in South Weymouth, MA.

Jon.

[R W Burgess]

Update, just spoke to John(carbking) who was a wealth of information. After thinking of what he told me. I took the float bowl of the carburetor apart. I found a cork float (surprise!), also noticed that the adjustment for the needle seat had backed out, which moved the float up. Retightened it. I'm now headed to the Tractor Supply store to see, if in fact, they do carburetor parts as an old friend of my suggested yesterday (I need some gasket material anyway, the carb was loose at the mounting points-makes for some nice vacuum leaks. )

Back in a bit...........

Wayne

[R W Burgess]

Lunch break update!

Car started and ran good for a while, no carb leaks. Then, I noticed it seemed to starve for gas. Increased regulator pressure, ran a little better, but still not good. An accessory oil pressure guage showed 35-40 pounds pressure, which is a good thing. Water temp went up and stabilized at around 160-170.

I finally got nerve enough to drive around the neighborhood, flat street first. After increasing pressure I got brave and drove it down the hill in my front street, 3 blocks, when it started to starve again, to the point that I had to give it a little choke. It finally sputtered to a stop. We're having fun now!

I can see Tom Larfferare ( sorry about the spelling, Tom! )laughing at me now..."Get brave Wayne!"

After messing with it a while I got it in the yard. The carb is starting to leak a little out of the float compartment again. At this point I'm thinking I might just hook up a line and pump all of the gas out this car, and start with fresh. If I'm having trouble so did the previous owner, as I could see new screws in the float top of the carb. The gas didn't smell bad, but I've got to start somewhere.

Wayne

[Guest pfloro]

Hello Wayne:

I had the same type electric fuel pump & regulator installed in my '84 Olds Toronado (307 V8) and was NOT pleased with the results... The choices which the mechanics made at the body shop were poor (great body/paint work but poor mechanical work). One stop shopping was not a good idea...!

Even with the regulator (I use that term loosely!) set to '1', the QJet's float bowl would sometimes overflow. Although I didn't measure the pressure, it had to be enough to overcome the seating force of the needle & seat. I suspect that I had a way high fuel level in the bowl for months.

Then, after 6 months, the pump failed and left me stranded on the road. My trusted mechanical shop installed a Holley 'Little Red' electric pump which is internally regulated to 7 PSI. We removed that chrome dial type regulator (IMHO, piece of junk) and tossed it. It's been a year with the new setup and I've had NO trouble with my daily driver. Gary (my trusted mechanic) informed me that the original electric pump has a design (pulsing solenoid) which is prone to early failure (pump heats up & quits pumping).

My only complaint is that the Holley pump (being a rotary vane design) is a bit noisy. It can be heard inside the car while idling but once underway, road noise masks it.

If your pocketbook can stand it, I would opt for the proven Holley pump.

Holley Performance Products 97 GPH “RED” Electric Fuel Pump*12-801-1 However, this a 12V pump & your car is 6V...?

Keep us posted,

Paul

Edited October 22, 2009 by pfloro (see edit history)

[Guest DeSoto Frank]

Wayne,

If you have a 1/2 to 1 gallon gas tank from a lawn-mower, Gravely tractor, or such, tie that on to the radiator support struts, then run a gravity line down to your carb.

Once you get the vehicle running okay with that set-up, go back to your electric fuel-pump set-up. I wonder if that regulator is restricting volume too much when you have the pressure turned all the way down.

I would suggest putting a vacuum gauge on this beast and seeing what kind of vacuum the engine is pulling; if it starts-off good (17-21 in.) then slowly drops towards zero, that could be a clog in the exhaust system.

Vacuum gauge should also expose poor valve timing.

Late ignition timing usually causes the engine to run hot, and in some cases causes the exhaust manifold to get red-hot.

I'm VERY curious about any pre-Step-Down Hudson product producing more than 20 lbs oil pressure; these were splash/circulate motors, with the little plunger pump... I believe "normal" oil pressure was around 8-12 lbs @ 30 mph, engine warm.

( Was once told this was why Hudson -Essex pioneered the "idiot light" for oil pressure...)

[R W Burgess]

Frank, concerning the oil pressure gauge; It took a while for the oil to run up the tube to the inside gauge. You could follow it along as it pulsed its way up the clear tube. Anyway, one problem at a time here.

I'm going to dump this gas now and try some new stuff. "Watch out lawnmower, you're about to get a load!" Haven't given up on this pump yet.

I do appreciate the comments, though.

Wayne

[R W Burgess]

Found this link this evening from the Hudson web site, the top carb looks almost exactly like mine (I know, almost, doesn't get it).

1929 Hudson Carburetor Problems

Didn't get to draining my gas tank...first thing in the morning, promise.

Wayne

[R W Burgess]

Variable venturi! Does that scare anyone?

That's what a carb expert from North Carolina told me this morning. I was about to put the carb off for shipping this morning when I made a miraculous discovery!

Another Essex will be on the tour and after contacting the owner, he has offered to help me with my carb problems so my wife and I will be able to participate on the Vintage Tour. For all you non AACA members, this is the best reason in the world to become an AACA member and go touring. Can't wait!

I'm attaching a picture of our car. I will also put up my usual daily diary of the Vintage Tour next week. Stay tuned for the fun!

Wayne

Edited October 22, 2009 by R W Burgess (see edit history)

[Guest Bluesky636]

Well, so what was the cause/solution?

[R W Burgess]

Well, so what was the cause/solution?

The carburetor has not been taken apart, so I can still drive it on and off my transport trailer. If you had seen the link above from the Hudson Web Site, they mention the inferior medal used in manufacturing the carb body. Evidently, moisture will penetrate the body, because it is so porous, and "swell" the internal parts. When this happens, the venturi will not move back and forth (providing more or less fuel as the vacuum requires.....my understanding of it, mind you.) So, you have the throttle flapper opening, but there is no heavy flow of fuel, which causes the engine to stall.

I can start the car with the choke wide open and the motor races. I close the throttle down some and the engine slows down, which gives me enough regulation to get it on the trailer. By no means is this any good for highway driving.

I hope this is correct information, it's the best that I can understand it. I will have another rebuilt carb waiting for me in North Carolina Monday morning...and a pickup full of tools.

I will update this thread next week. I hope I have a smile on my face!

Wayne

[24T42]

Wayne,

Just in case - we have a very nice 'Hard Luck' trophy. Of course, the car actually has to be on an official tour route to qualify not in your drive way.

See you Sunday.

Judy

[R W Burgess]

......... Of course, the car actually has to be on an official tour route to qualify not in your drive way..........

See you Sunday.

Judy

The Essex is in the trailer, not tied down yet, but in the trailer, along with battery chargers, spare tires, tools, all weather cover for it's roof insert, odd tie downs, quarts of oil, antifreeze, gasoline containers, spare jacks, jack stands, spare copper tubing, tubing connectors, rubber hose, hose clamps, cleaning accessories, and a cleaning lady!! :eek:

I told Gloria that if she's well enough to go, she'll be well enough to wash and polish our new ride! :cool:

Wayne

Whoops, almost forgot my jump box, first thing in the morning...........in the pickup! Wait!!!! And a power point PROJECTOR!

[Guest Bluesky636]

The carburetor has not been taken apart, so I can still drive it on and off my transport trailer. If you had seen the link above from the Hudson Web Site, they mention the inferior medal used in manufacturing the carb body. Evidently, moisture will penetrate the body, because it is so porous, and "swell" the internal parts. When this happens, the venturi will not move back and forth (providing more or less fuel as the vacuum requires.....my understanding of it, mind you.) So, you have the throttle flapper opening, but there is no heavy flow of fuel, which causes the engine to stall.

I can start the car with the choke wide open and the motor races. I close the throttle down some and the engine slows down, which gives me enough regulation to get it on the trailer. By no means is this any good for highway driving.

I hope this is correct information, it's the best that I can understand it. I will have another rebuilt carb waiting for me in North Carolina Monday morning...and a pickup full of tools.

I will update this thread next week. I hope I have a smile on my face!

Wayne

I think you mean "float" not "venturi" at the bolded section. Float controls fuel level. The venturi control airflow through the carb. Your problem as initially described was an overflow of fuel. That is a float problem, not a venturi problem.

I think this is your problem and solution as desribed in the link you provided:

"They also argue that the Carter BB-1 gets along better with an electric fuel pump than the Marvel carburetor (which an electric pump can overwhelm, causing gasoline overflow from the float bowl), but that problem can be resolved by installing a $5.00 pressure reducer in the gas line."

Edited October 24, 2009 by Bluesky636 (see edit history)

[R W Burgess]

I think you mean "float" not "venturi" at the bolded section. Float controls fuel level. The venturi control airflow through the carb. Your problem as initially described was an overflow of fuel. That is a float problem, not a venturi problem..

The carburetor expert from North Carolina told me that this carb has a "Variable Venturi", meaning to me that it moves "open and closed" as the throttle valve opens and closes, asking for more or less fuel. The throttle valve (flapper) is mounted up in the manifold, not in the carburetor. This is the reason the car will not respond to accelerator changes( opening flapper valve-more air)), but to choke changes (closing off air).

I think this is your problem and solution as described in the link you provided:

"They also argue that the Carter BB-1 gets along better with an electric fuel pump than the Marvel carburetor (which an electric pump can overwhelm, causing gasoline overflow from the float bowl), but that problem can be resolved by installing a $5.00 pressure reducer in the gas line."

It already has a pressure reducing, but I agree, in that this engine will probably run much better with a gravity fed vacuum tank, using the electric pump as a backup.

This is what we intend to do, when we arrive in North Carolina, (replace the carb, and reinstall a properly operating vacuum tank).

By the way, I'm an amateur at operating a car this old, just the messenger in this case, in fact. I welcome all inputs or suggestions, since it's the only way we learn from each other.

Wayne

Edited October 24, 2009 by R W Burgess (see edit history)

[Guest DeSoto Frank]

Wayne,

The "inferior metal" issue with your carb ( and other early die-cast"pot-metal" ) is due to high lead content in the alloy, causing "intergranular corrosion" - literally corrosion at the molecular level...

The result is that the metal expands and cracks, then crumbles. Pot metal parts inside of other parts can jam from this swelling.

Once it begins, there's no way to stop it.

Sadly, most pot-metal made before the Depression seems to suffer from this "disease", not only on cars, but also talking machines and other objects that required complex detail castings.

Good luck with the Essex !

[R W Burgess]

Final update!

The rebuilt carburetor that a friend brought me has cured my cars fuel ills. I also had to use a separate fuel tank to overcome the original tank's contamination problems. Just wanted everyone to know that the Essex is running again.

Happy days for everyone.

Wayne