jps Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I am re-plating a set of wheel nuts and a set of headlight bezels for my 1925 Touring. Does anyone have a suggestion on the thickness of Nickel plating I should use? The local plater suggested 200-400 microinches but I would lke to confirm this. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jan arnett (2) Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 John:Do you trust the platter? If you do I would go with their recomendation. The rims should not be a problem but you nuts will be subject to more wear. Also what type of chrome plating are you getting and are they putting down a heavy coat of copper.Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DodgeKCL Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I'm not sure but I don't think there was any chrome plating in 1925. My understanding is the first vehicle to have any chrome plating in any noticable amount was the 1928? Oldsmobile. Yes,no? I know all inside 'silverware' on all Chrysler vehicles was nickel plated to atleast 1935 or '36 and possibly beyond. I replate all nickel plated parts with nickel as per original. I've never been asked how thick it should be but I would put on a heavy coat,whatever your plater calls a heavy coat, because nickel corrodes unlike chrome and wears off over the years as you polish it. The edges of nickel plated parts can actually be polished down to the copper base in about 15 years. Personal experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Correct...chrome came into play in 1928 and very limited at that. Mostly nickel interior parts and chrome exterior parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
platt-deutsch Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Problem with Chrome is it is porous and water will get thru it and eat on the base metals.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jan arnett (2) Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I miss spoke. You are correct it would be nickle. The process is base metal, copper, nickle and then Chrome. I am not sure how Chrome would be porous since you have nickle, and copper underneath the Chrome.Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
platt-deutsch Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 MicrostructureDuring deposition, the hard chrome develops pinpoint porosity or it can spontaneously develop microcracks. The areas between microcracks are called plateaus. Smaller plateaus are favored by more catalyst and less chromic acid in the plating bath and also by lowering the plating temperatures. Hard chrome plating can be nearly free of microcracks which will provide improved corrosion resistance and fatigue. However, the wear rate will suffer because it is a "softer" plating and without microcracks, it will not retain lubricating oil. This softer, continuous chrome has better shock resistance and is therefore often chosen for metal working tools.The porosity and cracks markedly reduce the corrosion resistance and fatigue strength. However, they beneficially trap oil. Indeed, in many applications if there isn't enough porosity or microcracking, then wear rates may be unacceptably high, traceable to insufficient trapped lubricant. Often, the lowest wear rates are obtained when a combination of methods is used. For example, plated-in pinpoint microporosity, plus a heavily grit blasted or rough machined surface to create pockets with a final honing to even up the surface and leave a pattern of grooving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jps Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 I don't have any experience dealing with this plater - so far he is the first local one I found that will even take my small job. I am requesting Nickel, and I already sandblasted the wheel nuts. Maybe I wouldn't be able to tell, but I didn't see any evidence of copper under the nickel on the wheel nuts - I assumed it was Nickel over bare steel. The headlight rims are brass with Nickel plating on top. I know for electronic circuit boards that Nickel plating over Copper in the range 100 - 200 microinches is used under about 3 microinches of gold, so the plater's recommendation of 200- 400 microinches is double what would be used for a PC board. It is just the wheel nuts I am worried about. Should the Nickel go directly over the steel or do I need Copper in between? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DodgeKCL Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 You're right about there being apparently nothing under the original plating. Any original nickel plated door hardware that wears down to the steel never seems to have ANY other base metal, like copper, underneath it. Any brass headlight rings or instrument dress rings seem to have been nickel plated without any prep what so ever,straight over the brass. I think this would most likely be the truth because you can bet the car makers would take the shortest and cheapest route. I can remember the chrome on my father's cars back in the 50s peeling off in sheets. And I don't remember any copper showing under it. In discussions with platers I get the feeling copper is only use as a FILLER anyways that the plater can work to smooth out the part before plating. I think we're doing a better job than was originally done. With that said you may be just as well off plating the nickel directly on the nuts as I don't think anybody would notice small marks in wheel nuts. What does your plater say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 YOU NEED THE COPPER! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jps Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 OK, since copper is necessary I have more questions:1) What copper thickness is needed on the wheel nuts?2) The headlight rims have an old nickel finish, and I have sanded some areas down to the brass after soldering several cracks with silver solder. Do I need to remove all of the old nickel finish before I re-plate?3) What copper thickness is necessary for the headlight rims?I will ask the plater these questions too but I don't know that he has any experience with these specific kinds of parts. Thanks for your comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nearchoclatetown Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I've never seen copper under nickle plating, just chrome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DodgeKCL Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 I stand by my statement that nickel can be,and was, put over clean brass without any copper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDewey Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 While I'm not a plater, I have read and talked to many folks about the process. Nickel can be put over bare steel, but adhesion is not the best, it's just a cheaper process--and in the case of the nuts, is thinner and less likely to chip when wrenched. The copper strike is used for both adhesion and a filler to make the surface as smooth as possible. Back in the day, the nickel layer had to be polished to make it shine--today the process uses other chemicals and "bright nickel" that doesn't require this process. Our cars were plated with "grey nickel" (not a technical term). Chrome plate itself is a nearly clear finish, with a bluish cast. It is used over nickel to prevent oxidation of the nickel. the bit of blue is why it looks different from straight nickel. Now, if you've been reading between the lines, you may have picked up on why many interior parts were done in "Butler Finish" which is a duller finish than polished nickel. The finish is final polished with a fairly course buffing compound. Today we do this to gloss plating to dull it down, back then it was done to provide a texture to an already dull finish. Between the lines also tells you that many itmes were only polished on the visible surfaces. A good example of this would be the Model A ford bumpers. Although chromed, the nickel was only polished on the front faces, and halfway around the rounded ends, the back,and top and bottom edges were not. Today, if one wants that effect and is using a bright nickel, then media blast can be use to dull the nickel before applying the chrome. This is seldom done except by the really finicky, blue ribbon judged restorers--the labor cost is too much!David D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DodgeKCL Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 I stand by my statement that nickel was put over bare metal without ANY copper by the car manufacturers as a cost saving. And I have parts in my junk box that do not appear to have any copper plate under their chrome or nickel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nearchoclatetown Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 KLC, I don't think any one is diputing what you are saying. Nickle WAS put on bare steel. It SHOULD be put on copper for the best results. Lots of Co.s only nickled then chromed, again not the best. The very best is triple chrome or show chrome, copper, nickle then chrome. I personally like the appearance of nickle better then chrome, has a deeper darker look. Lots of hotrod/streetrod guys are useing more nickle. In a restoration I would do what the factory did, though, as far as chrome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDewey Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Agreed, thought that was what I was saying. Most platers doing custom work (re-chroming or nickeling antique car parts) won't eliminate the copper strike because they don't want the work coming back on them. Nickel was/is put directly on brass too, I don't know if adhesion is better or worse than copper.David D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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