Buying American Advantages/Disadvantages?

[R W Burgess]

Is this something like political correctness, Matt?

Wayne

[Matt Harwood]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: simplyconnected</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hard-working, able-bodied Americans lost their jobs and couldn't make their payments. Some of them helped their company pack the machines on trucks, bound for the orient.</div></div>

And even more bought houses they couldn't afford using mortgages they didn't read sold by brokers who didn't care.

If your car payment and your house payment are the same, there's probably something fishy. Millions of morons didn't realize that.

I blame the banks themselves most of all. When this stuff started to fall apart, why not restructure all those mortgages into fixed-rate programs? Obviously a lot of people could afford their mortgages at the rates at which they started. It was only after the rate adjustments that people started getting in trouble. So instead of trying to stem the bleeding and make concessions, the banks just cut off the wounded limb entirely and limped away. How stupid is that?

I don't like the idea of a bailout. I'm not an economist and I don't have any kind of understanding of this situation. Maybe it's necessary, or maybe it'll add a lot of weight to an already sinking ship.

I read one proposal floated by a Republican senator that sounded smart to me: instead of actually <span style="font-style: italic">buying</span> all the bad debt, why doesn't the government simply <span style="font-style: italic">insure</span> all the bad debt, and charge the banks for doing so? Man, that sounds smart. I wonder what the trap door under the floor of that one is that kept it from being accepted. Oh, wait, they're congressmen, common sense need not apply. Nevermind.

I don't know about you guys, but I wonder how effective and comprehensive a sweeping policy change like this will be after being thrown together in less than a week by a bunch of knotheads who like to fix blame instead of problems.

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt Harwood</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I found this prophetic piece today:

</div></div>

Matt, great find...

OMG, from the article "''Fannie Mae has expanded home ownership for millions of families in the 1990's by reducing down payment requirements,'' said <span style="color: #FF0000">Franklin D. Raines</span>, Fannie Mae's chairman and chief executive officer." There's a bad penny.

What the article doesn't articulate is the pressure that banks were under to actively pursue making loans to 'sub prime borrowers', actually having business plans for merger, expansion, etc held hostage by provisions of the Community Reinvestment Act (1977) that allowed community groups and communtity organizers (like... uh,... that guy... that sought advice from Raines...) to literally halt business expansion.

When is the MSM going to start connecting the dots on where this all really began and who's hands are dirty?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Article...</div><div class="ubbcode-body">government-subsidized corporation may run into trouble in an economic downturn, prompting a government rescue similar to that of the savings and loan industry in the 1980's</div></div>

Which was set up by the confluence of the S&L deregulation in the <span style="font-style: italic">Garn-St. Germain Depository Institutions Act of 1982</span> which relaxed investment restrictions on S&Ls, and the <span style="font-style: italic">Tax Reform Act of 1986</span> which pretty much eliminated the tax-shelters that provided a lot of the low interest cash from S&L depositors. They were forced to undertake risky investments to survive... that didn't work too well...

The next big crisis? My bet is on the PBGC when Ford and/or GM fail. That ought to be good for a $100B or so...

JMC

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt Harwood</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I read one proposal floated by a Republican senator that sounded smart to me: instead of actually <span style="font-style: italic">buying</span> all the bad debt, why doesn't the government simply <span style="font-style: italic">insure</span> all the bad debt, and charge the banks for doing so? Man, that sounds smart. I wonder what the trap door under the floor of that one is that kept it from being accepted. Oh, wait, they're congressmen, common sense need not apply. Nevermind.</div></div>

Good point. Actually one of the solution packages on the table (we'll see if it gets included) was two fold:

For two years, suspend the capital gains tax on this very specific class of financial instrument... mortgage backed securities (MBS)

For five years, suspend the Sarbanes-Oxley 'mark to market' requirement for MBS securities. This would effectively allow accounting procedure to value the MBS at it's real value as opposed to market value (about zero today, and useless as collateral or for sale value) even though only a partial percentage of the loans in the MBS are toxic.

Adding insurance would further enhance the underlying value of the MBS.

Bet we could get the whole thing done for $50B vice potentially $700B plus.

JMC

[R W Burgess]

John, your phone is ringing!

I think someone in DC wants to talk to you!

Wayne

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W Burgess</div><div class="ubbcode-body">John, your phone is ringing!

I think someone in DC wants to talk to you!</div></div>

I'm more concerned with a midnight knock at the door. It's not nice to apply critical thinking and some research... you might just find things people don't want known...

But then again, he who offers the most goodies wins!

Matt, you mean my house payment should be <span style="font-style: italic">higher </span>than my Lexus payment? That's just not <span style="font-style: italic">right</span>, man! I have to make the house payment for so-o-o-o much longer!

Cheers,

JMC

[Guest simplyconnected]

God help anyone starting out, today, especially the men and women discharged from our military.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: John Chapman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The shame of it is that the loans will only delay the inevitable collapse of the domestic auto makers as they struggle under the odious burden imposed by the UAW.</div></div> I heard John bashing the UAW many times. It seems GM is closing France and Hummer, and opening a GM/UAW Engine Plant in Flint! I thought unions were bad, John. <span style="font-style: italic">Can you tell me, what is the PRIMARY FUNCTION of the UAW? </span> I bet you don't know. I'll give you a big hint; it's written in the very first page of every contract.

Oh, by the way, if the workers don’t want the union in their shop, they can vote them out. I’ve seen it happen. The UAW is as beneficial to the company as it is to the workers. Find out who is running the health care fund for Ford. GM is soon to follow. - Dave Dare

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: simplyconnected</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Oh, by the way, if the workers don’t want the union in their shop, they can vote them out. I’ve seen it happen. The UAW is as beneficial to the company as it is to the workers. Find out who is running the health care fund for Ford. GM is soon to follow. - Dave Dare

</div></div>

Although I'm not <span style="font-weight: bold">big </span> on unions and never participated in any, I can't imagine where this country would be without them ever existing. Probably a third world country.

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt Harwood</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I found this prophetic piece today:

</div></div>

This might even be more pathetic......... Watch the video.

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: simplyconnected</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...I heard John bashing the UAW many times. It seems GM is closing France and Hummer, and opening a GM/UAW Engine Plant in Flint! I thought unions were bad, John. <span style="font-style: italic">Can you tell me, what is the PRIMARY FUNCTION of the UAW? </span> I bet you don't know. I'll give you a big hint; it's written in the very first page of every contract.</div></div>

"Fighting for America"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: simplyconnected</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh, by the way, if the workers don’t want the union in their shop, they can vote them out.</div></div>

Assuming the The One is chosen, you can count on the Democrat-controlled Congress and a very liberal Democrat in the White House to make it a first order of business to pass the Employee Free Choice Act... Ironically titled, read it, and then decide if you'll be able to keep out a union... or, vote one out. Follow the money and see who is getting union dollars. Then see who is sponsoring. As the unionized automotive industry contracts, the unions have to expand to other areas. Use critical thought, get informed, then decide if you really think it's a good idea. Most people don't know more than the sound bites they are fed. That's why we end up with the crap we have to live with, pay for, and bail out. WII-FM is the clarion call of the propaganda and sound bite 'informed' voter.

I'm not anti union. I'm anti greed, willful ignorance, corruption, and deceit. Just happens the unions and politics have a lot of all...

Cheers,

JMC

[Guest simplyconnected]

John, you forgot to answer my question:<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: simplyconnected</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic">Can you tell me, what is the PRIMARY FUNCTION of the UAW? </span> I bet you don't know.</div></div> My uncle worked for MAR'S CANDY CO. in Oak Park, Illinois (Chicago burb) for 40 years. The workers were always satisfied with their company's generosity, and they voted every union DOWN. To this day, no need for a union.

Still waiting for my answer... You union bashers don't really know why unions are there. "Fighting for America" isn't an answer, John. All Americans are supposed to do that.

Last week, the Berkley, MI, Police Department got a signed confession from my mother's caregiver. Mom is 98 and lives at her house since 1956. The caregiver stole a Met Life check for US$1,500 from mom's home, forged it, cashed it at a party store ten miles away, and spent the money on herself. Now, let's talk about: anti greed, willful ignorance, corruption, and deceit. The woman is mid-forty, and has another credit card case pending in a neighboring town, where she takes care of a man with alzheimer's. When the detective asked her if she thought she'd get away with it, she said, "I was desperate. I needed money".

We really liked her, and she had no prior record. (She still doesn't because she hasn't been convicted.) Still, she's a crook, and I doubt if mom will see ANY of that money. They walk among us...

[Matt Harwood]

OK, simplyconnected, I'll bite--why are the unions there?

I'm betting that their mission statement is something like "to protect the rights and safety of working class Americans" or some other flag-waving, but ultimately empty appeal to one's regular-Joe emotions.

Unions were a good thing once upon a time. Henry Ford was notorious for abusing his employees and the unions put a stop to that and improved their standard of living, the safety in the plants and gave them a future beyond the end of the week. Some industries today benefit from unions such as the UFCW. But the UAW has grown fat and wealthy off of the domestic auto industry and now its only interest is in short-sighted self-preservation. They're almost like a legal version of the Mob these days. Extortion? SOP, with one hell of a vig.

Every other automaker save for the "Big 3" domestics uses non-union labor in the US. Every other automaker save for the "Big 3" domestics is profitable. Correlation or coincidence? I can't say.

There's just no reason for a guy who screws fenders onto an Impala to make $50K/year, get free healthcare for life and a pension that pays him 70% of his salary until he dies, then passes it on to his spouse until he/she dies. There's no other industry that gives workers such ridiculous perks. I have a 401k into which I put my own money each month--my employer doesn't even offer matching funds of any kind. My wife pays several hundred dollars a month from her paycheck so we can have health insurance. I don't find that outrageous nor do I think my employer owes me anything more than that. I'm sure 90% of the rest of the country has a similar deal and finds it satisfactory.

Like I said, the UAW isn't protecting anyone anymore and they seem perfectly willing to ride their gravy train right to the end of the line where it will hit a wall and crash and burn. Compromise now or die later. Don't like being laid off? You should blame the union as much as you blame the automaker. Their pockets just aren't as deep as they were 20+ years ago.

What were we talking about again?

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: simplyconnected</div><div class="ubbcode-body">John, you forgot to answer my question:

<span style="font-style: italic">Can you tell me, what is the PRIMARY FUNCTION of the UAW? </span> I bet you don't know.</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: simplyconnected</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Still waiting for my answer... You union bashers don't really know why unions are there. "Fighting for America" isn't an answer, John. All Americans are supposed to do that.</div></div>

SimplyC, I'll tell you what... The slogan I found was posted on several UAW banners at some factory somewhere. Despite looking at at least a dozen UAW contracts in PDF format, I've not found a slogan on them anywhere.

Perhaps you will enlighten me now that I've failed at Trivial Pursuit.

I also challenge you to read the proposed legislation I pointed out and see if you think Mars will continue as an open shop.

You get me wrong. I don't argue with the concept and function of a union. I find great fault with it's present day execution.

Cheers,

JMC

[Guest simplyconnected]

This is in keeping with the original question; What are the advantages of buying American, but broadens it to, "Union American"...

The main function of the UAW is to supply the workforce. (Companies used to check qualifications of new-hires, then we found nepotism and favoritism prevented earnest checks.) The benefit is to you, the buyer. Tool & Die Makers are REAL T&D guys, not wannabe’s (unlike non-union shops). Same thing with mold makers, electricians, pipefitters, machine repair, stationary steam, AND semi-skilled labor, like metal finishers, welder fixture repair, etc. The apprenticeships are bonified US Department of Labor AND GM/UAW or Ford/UAW, etc. When you get a union-made vehicle, it is put together by properly trained professionals, not someone’s son-in-law that needed a job for that day, or some sweeper that’s filling-in for the guy who took the day off (unlike non-union shops).

If the responsibility of the UAW is to supply the workforce, there are circumstances where the union cannot ‘protect’ a worker, and the company may fire an employee outright. Absenteeism and tardiness tops the list, but so does job refusal, stealing, fighting, and sexual harassment. In all these cases, the employee puts himself out of work, he must be replaced by someone else, and the UAW cannot help the offender.

The company runs the plant like a military operation, and even uses military terms, like General Foreman, etc., because many plants have 1,500 workers. That’s a lot of labor to co-ordinate into a manufacturing machine that pumps out a car each minute. If any department loses two units in his shift, that department head WILL answer to the Plant Manager. Believe me, this is serious business. Figure the cost of 1,500 people for two minutes, then figure how much they lost on two units in sales.

Wanna talk about saving money? When you buy a union-made car, you’re getting a great deal. I challenge anyone to take his driver’s door apart, spread it out on your driveway, and put it back together. Sounds simple? Try it. Bump shops will buy an assembled junk door before they attempt that. Guys in the factory do one per minute, all day, every day! They make it look as easy as Michael Jordan shooting hoops. (You wouldn’t last the first hour.)

That’s why, on the first page of every plant contract, it states, you must be a member of the union to work in this shop. The union trains, qualifies, then supplies the workforce. Sometimes it's done jointly; GM/UAW training. The number of employees and the line speed is always determined by the company, not the union.

Want to talk about content? We got more CRAP wire harnesses from Mexico than you can immagine. It's always best to make your own parts, to maintain quality. Bean counters don't see it that way. That's why we have recalls like the FIRESTONE fiasco at Ford. Oh, wait. Who foot the bill for that? ALL the money to replace Firestone tires came from the profit sharing checks of the Ford/UAW workers. Ford workers had NOTHING to do with the design of Firestone/Bridgestone tires, but they faithfully helped Ford.

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: simplyconnected</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is in keeping with the original question; What are the advantages of buying American, but broadens it to, "Union American"...

The main function of the UAW is to supply the workforce. </div></div>

Holy Hannibal on a Crutch... you drank <span style="font-style: italic">all </span>of the Kool Aide!

There isn't a thing you cite as a union being necessary for that many non-union shops don't accomplish every day in every country that produces anything. Get serious.

Door assembly... <span style="font-style: italic">door assembly</span>... for cryin' out loud.

I've had a group of Navy kids take airplanes apart... at sea, on a moving ship, at night, in the rain, reassemble them and have them fly the next day.

Doors don't require rocket science. Just practice.

Explain to me how Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and Mercedes accomplish the same thing your union shop does, with roughly the same people... and do it better.

Next example?

JMC

[Guest Skyking]

Dave, we've been on the same page up until now. Sorry, I have to disagree with everything you stated about the unions verses non-union people. I've been in the printing industry for 40 years, non-union and worked beside guys who were still paying union dues. Most were bad, unskilled workers. Most of the time I'd have to re-run their work.

[Guest simplyconnected]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skyking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Although I'm not <span style="font-weight: bold">big </span> on unions and never participated in any, I can't imagine where this country would be without them ever existing. Probably a third world country.</div></div> We've been here before the unions organized. Remember the thug squads all the companies had on hand? Each industry had their own; steel, coal, timber, cattle, you name it... Henry Ford had the entire Dearborn Police Dept., responsible for shooting ninteen laid-off workers. Three murdered worker's graves face Ford's Rouge Plant, today. Five were shot dead. Here's the Michigan Historical Marker:

Ford Hunger March

Harry Bennett ran Ford Motor Company with his goon squad for twenty years:

Battle of the Overpass May 26, 1937

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: John Chapman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've had a group of Navy kids take airplanes apart... at sea, on a moving ship, at night, in the rain, reassemble them and have them fly the next day.

Doors don't require rocket science. Just practice.

Explain to me how Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and Mercedes accomplish the same thing your union shop does, with roughly the same people... and do it better.</div></div>

Sorry you don't agree, guys. I only used a SIMPLE driver's door as a crude, non-technical example. I bet you still can't do it as well. And no, it takes talent to set glass, and set the door with proper fit and finish. Remember, each body has a different dimension.

John, you need to get out more often. Your kids may put planes together, but they don't get sued in case of catastrophic failure. The auto companies do. If you think Honda, Nissan and Mercedes do the same thing without a union, YOU ARE IN LA-LA LAND! Europe is much more unionized than the US, and MOST of the Japanese workers are in their own automotive union. WAKE UP! They come here to get away from unions, because we invite them. Didn't we just discuss the fact, they can't produce over there cheaper?<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt Harwood</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Honda using a non-union domestic labor force is cheaper than building cars with Japanese workers and shipping them and paying import duties.</div></div>

For safety's sake, a union shop can't make a janitor deck glass or do electrical work. They do in non-union shops because the workers are afraid of losing their jobs (especially workers that aren't that good). They will do ANYTHING. Point is, your car will be assembled by a professional assembler in a union shop, not a spot welder or robot tender. Quality starts with each part, and continues with proper assembly.

Oh, and by the way... EVERY plant starts out WITHOUT a union. Yes, even the new engine plant coming to Flint. The UAW was invited there by GM executives. If GM didn't want a union, they could have established a new plant in a 'right to work' state, like Texas. What does THAT tell you? The UAW is GOOD for GM, in more ways than you realize. GM isn't exactly stupid, and neither is Ford.

What's the old saying? "What's good for GM..." I agree.

[Guest Skyking]

Here' some interesting facts why it's important to buy an American car verses Foreign...........

[MCHinson]

Thanks. I suspect that someone will try to dispute each of those points, but I enjoyed it.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skyking</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Here' some interesting facts why it's important to buy an American car verses Foreign........... </div></div>

Joe already linked this in his first post on this thread. The critique of it's "facts" has already been well established here (in the posts on Page 1) and elsewhere.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Reatta Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is a good place to go for some facts:

http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org/fact_kit.html

This site was started by a group of retired auto workers. </div></div>

[MCHinson]

I knew I could count on you Dave.

Sorry, I can't help myself....

By the way, I have been waiting for the opportunity to tell you this... Love your new avatar. It seems perfect for you.

[Guest bkazmer]

there is both good and spurious info in the site. As with most lobbying groups, there is an agenda.

[Guest Skyking]

Thanks, I didn't see that, it's been awhile.......

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bkazmer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> As with most lobbying groups, there is an agenda. </div></div>

Good point! I think by now we all know what that is.