Buying American Advantages/Disadvantages?

[MarkV]

What are the advantages and disadvantages in regards to buying American?

[Steve Braverman]

What do you mean by "American?" Is a Dodge built in Mexico "American," or is a Honda built in Ohio "American?"

[Guest Skyking]

No comment!

[Bill Clark]

What are the advantages and disadvantages in regards to buying American? What do you mean by "American?" Is a Dodge built in Mexico "American," or is a Honda built in Ohio "American?"

From a foreign trade viewpoint.

A foreign car is one whose profits are converted into a currency that is not US Dollars. Even though American workers are paid US Dollars to build Hondas in Ohio, the profits from the sale of the car are sent to Japan. Becuause more US dollars are spent on foreign goods than Yen are spent on US goods, the Japanese end up with excess Dollars. They can either buy things in the US, like businesses or buildings or buy US debt. Americans probably don't have enough money to finance our own debt without trade deficits. You can find college economic professors that will argue huge trade deficits don't matter or others that argue they are a huge problem. I tend to think they are a problem.

From a quality viewpoint.

I bought a new Chevy Malibu and love it. Its my understanding that some foreign cars have equally good quality.

From a who builds it viewpoint.

I have this wacky belief that all improvements in a societys standard of living come from people making things, ie people taking materials, money, and energy and creating something of greater value. Almost anyone else is a drain on society. From this viewpoint, I don't really care if it is a "foreign" car as long as a someone who is going to improve my standard of living, a domestic worker, made it. My pickup has a Mexican engine. I understand that some of my dollars paid wages in Mexico.

From a most inexpensive product viewpoint.

People should not just buy American because its American any more than they should not buy foreign goods. Consumers must buy the most cost effective product or capitalism does not work. Manufacturers that do not control cost and quality, foreign or domestic, will fail if they are not competitive.

From a world trade viewpoint.

The only true route to world peace is through world trade. We are probably more at peace with the Chinese now that we are buying things from them and their standard of living is increasing.

This entire issue is so complicated that politicians, schools and buyers just ignore it. I don't understand all the issues, but I try to buy from a domestic supplier when the price and quality is comparable.

Bill

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From a foreign trade viewpoint.

A foreign car is one whose profits are converted into a currency that is not US Dollars. Even though American workers are paid US Dollars to build Hondas in Ohio, the profits from the sale of the car are sent to Japan.</div></div>

However,...

A typical "American car" has a domestic content of <span style="font-weight: bold">65-70%</span>, mainly due to Mexican assembly and overseas part supplies. This is less than most of the most popular domestically produced "Import cars". Accord, Camry, and most trucks/SUVs are well over <span style="font-weight: bold">80%</span>, in some cases <span style="font-weight: bold">90%</span>. Accord and Camry in fact have a higher domestic content than <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">ANY</span></span> "American car".

The <span style="font-weight: bold">profit margin <span style="text-decoration: underline">to the manufacturer</span></span> on new car sales is <span style="text-decoration: underline">never more than <span style="font-weight: bold">1%</span></span> (excepting a few SUVs in their now expired heyday). It's usually in the range of 0.25-0.5%. Just the income tax paid by the workers that built the car is orders of magnitude more than the profits generated by the car.

Therefore, <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #3333FF">it is in fact a <span style="font-style: italic">near certainty <span style="text-decoration: underline">today</span></span> that buying almost any "American car" sends more money out of the country than buying the most popular "domestic imports" does.</span></span>

The rest is just jingoism.

[Reatta Man]

Here is a good place to go for some facts:

http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org/fact_kit.html

This site was started by a group of retired auto workers.

Here are some other interesing facts from that site:

When you look at the JPC (Jobs Per Car) and percentage of domestic content, GM is about double the domestic content overall of Toyota and has a much, much larger U.S. workforce than Toyota. Ford and Chrysler also have a big difference in jobs when compared to many foreign makes.

This site also lets you compare domestic content and other factors between specific models. For example, on the surface the 2007 Toyota Corolla and Chevy Malibu may seem similar since they are both made in the U.S., right? But the Malibu has 86% domestic content vs. 60% for the Corolla, and the Malibu is supported (supplied) by 19 U.S. plants vs. 3 for the Corolla. This produces a JPC rating of 72 for the Malibu and 32 for the Corolla.

http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org/compare.php

When you compare the Chrysler Sebring vs. Hyundai Sonata, the JPC rating is 83 for the Chrysler, and 12 for the Hyundai Sonata, even though both are made in the U.S.

Here is some more information from their site:

U.S. automakers (Ford, GM and Chrysler) employ two and a half times more U.S. workers (per car) than foreign automakers (including all the cars they make here). Even with recent buyouts, GM employs more Americans than all foreign-owned automakers combined. Ford's U.S. job "footprint" is about 20 times bigger than that of Hyundai. And Ford employs more U.S. workers at a single manufacturing facilitiy than Hyundai and VW employ nationwide. Honda is one of the largest, longest operating "transplant" manufacturers operating in the U.S., but it employs only 27,000 Americans, about a third of Chrysler's current total.

I like their slogan: "What you drive, drives America."

[Guest Dave Wyatt]

Yeah, but you have to like to drive what you end up buying. That's why we ended up in a VW. I looked at what Ford and GM had to offer, and drove quite a few, but the VW was our choice. I don't regret it one bit. I did buy a Ford truck at the same time, but it was a similar situation. I did not like the other offerings for trucks.

I think the domestic makers need to make cars enjoyable to drive again.

[Peter Gariepy]

ReattaMan,

THAT SITE IS REMARKABLY INFORMATIVE! A true eye-opener actually.

Dave@Moon,

Your numbers are significantly different that the numbers at http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org. Can you name your source of data so i can compare?

[Guest Skyking]

There's an old saying that's becoming popular. You can put lipstick on a pig and it's still a pig.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Peter Gariepy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Dave@Moon,

Your numbers are significantly different that the numbers at http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org. Can you name your source of data so i can compare?

</div></div>

There are a number of sources for this information. The last one I linked on the forum was this page from cars.com. On it the Accord is not shown, but the Sienna and Tundra are. The last one I remember reading, which I think was on CNN.com, had the Accord in the top 5 and the Tundra at #2.

I haven't looked at Joe's site yet.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I haven't looked at Joe's site yet.</div></div>

It's mainly cherry-picked stats that support their conclusions instead of making intuitive sense. If Toyota sounds worse than the most favorable American company, they use Toyota. If VW sounds worse, they use them. It's actually kind of entertaining to read how they pussy-foot around the subject of "efficiency" using their "jobs per car" approach this way, evidently hiding a bloated workforce behind figures largely from VW's Mexican operations. Their main point of the country needing a real, cohesive, & universal health care plan to become competitive in the world market again is undoubtedly true, however.

Domestic content, while not perfect, is by far the better measure of the impact of car sales on the U.S. economy. This is the term used by the industry as a whole, the Federal govt., and all reputable industry groups. (<span style="color: #009900">In particular, see David Cole's comment on this in the linked cars.com page at the end of this post.</span>) See the domestic content link for a good 4 page discussion of the pros and cons of this measure. Pay particular attention to the graph on page 1, "<span style="font-style: italic">Production weighted domestic content 1997-2006</span> (Detroit 3 vs. foreign-owned)".

I used a typical range of 65-70% domestic content for "American" cars based on selected examples, they list 79% with no specific reference either. This seems quite high for 2008 data. For instance Chrysler's best domestic content vehicle (Dodge Ram) is only 75%. It may be that they're using older data, as the trend towards lower domestic content across the board accelerated in 2008 and even more in 2009. (cars.com, A Closer Look at Domestic-Parts Content)

[Peter Gariepy]

I knew i could count on you Dave.

[Guest bkazmer]

Jobs/car confounds inefficiency, assembly method and sourcing. A more meaningful statistic might be % of the workers, including suppliers, that are U.S. Looking at only the OEM workers will be very distorted by, for example, whether the OEM makes the transmission in-house or buys it from a transmission manufacturer. But if you know where the guy who makes the transmission works, rather than who he works for, you get a better idea of where his wages are spent. This same effect confounds the assembly man-hours/vehicle statistic.

If you think back to the "assembled car" OEM's of the 1920's, this is not a new effect. If a car had a Continental engine, the OEM itself had zero employees paid to build the engine.

[Reatta Man]

Wow, what a great discussion!

I'm impressed by the people who care about this subject and bring different sources and analysis to the forum.

However, there is one thing I don't want to imply and hope no one else does either. That is, you have the right to buy and drive what you like and want. If you like a VW over a Ford or Chevy, or it fits your budget or needs, etc., then buy the VW.

The original question was whether buying American has any advantages or disadvantages. I believe the advantages far, far outweigh the disadvantages so I will vigorously advocate that position. But any other reader/user also has the same opportunity to learn and then decide.

Joe

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A more meaningful statistic might be % of the workers, including suppliers, that are U.S.</div></div>

In it's simplest terms, that's exactly what "domestic content" is defined as. My 1996 Ford Ranger was nearly all U.S. made, but the standard transmission in all Rangers were made in Japan by Mazda. Therefore my Ranger's domestic content when I bought it was 93%.

In 1996 that was a kind of low for a Big 3 truck. Today that's nearly an unattainably high number even in a truck.

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Reatta Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...interesing facts from that site: When you look at the JPC (Jobs Per Car) ... GM is about double the domestic content overall of Toyota and has a much, much larger U.S. workforce than Toyota. Ford and Chrysler also have a big difference in jobs when compared to many foreign makes.</div></div>

Discussion about the 'universal health care' issue notwithstanding, the above quoted workforce statistic is, in essence, the death knell of the US automotive industry if not corrected. It points directly to the union-driven labor hostage situation confronting domestic producers for the past fifty years.

Don't get me wrong... I'm not 'anti-union', for they have served and important place in the economy... however...

They (as notably documented in the case of the UAW) have forced unsustainable employment, salary, retirement, and health care burdens on the manufacturers. Ideally, the union(s) would see this and act in their best interest of long term preservation. Unfortunately, I don't think this is going to transpire. We will be faced with a repeat of what's happening in the US airline industry: large-scale bankruptcies that force a realignment of salary agreements, release from retirement and health plan liabilities, and workforce restructuring (read: unload the deadwood/overpaid/redundant).

Since the 1950's, feeding the ravenous "labor 'gator" has come at the expense of spending money on development and capital investment. Mix that in with some truly unimaginative corporate leadership, and you get what has happened to the US automotive industry since the 1970's.

While there have been glimmers of hope with respect to the latter problem, the high cost of unionized labor in an increasingly global economy continues to cripple us.

Cheers,

JMC

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: John Chapman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Discussion about the 'universal health care' issue notwithstanding, the above quoted workforce statistic is, in essence, the death knell of the US automotive industry if not corrected. It points directly to the union-driven labor hostage situation confronting domestic producers for the past fifty years.

</div></div>

John, this goes way beyond the Auto industry. Now it's even affecting state government's. The taxpayer can't flip the bills anymore, and the unions don't want to hear it. Somethings going to give.......

[Rusty_OToole]

There is another angle on this that most people don't know about. You may well go down to your local domestic car dealer and buy an "American" car that was actually built in Canada.

There is a good reason for this. Back in 1966 the US and Canada passed what was called the "Auto Pact". This allowed car makers to swap parts and vehicles freely across the border. Instead of having 2 inefficient plants making the same vehicle, they could have 1 efficient plant making, say, cars on one side of the border and another making, say, minivans on the other side - then swap them back and forth as necessary.

I point this out because in the past "patriotic" Americans have refused to buy Canadian made Fords, Chevs etc thinking they were preserving Amercan jobs. When in fact it was just the opposite.

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skyking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">John, this goes way beyond the Auto industry. Now it's even affecting state government's... </div></div>

Yeah, don't I know it! Just ask our Governator Ahhnold. He fought the unions, and he lost. Says something when the president of the transportation worker's union tells the state governor to sit on it, so to speak. In fact one union or another in California have pretty much stonewalled all the reforms promised in the election.

The unions might not hear it... but look to Vallejo CA for an example of what is to come. The city declared bankruptcy last month because they couldn't meet the pension burden any longer.

Remember... it's not about the issues. The guy that promises the most goodies wins.

Cheers,

JMC

[Guest simplyconnected]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1948Lincoln</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What are the advantages and disadvantages in regards to buying American?</div></div>

Others on this forum, point fingers of blame at the automotive industry. Truth is, our domestic auto manufacturers are barely hanging on (look at Ford stock). This is in keeping with the rest of our economy. Look at the big picture, pertaining to your question, Wes.

Simply put, we Americans have put our hard-earned greenbacks down on so much foreign products, mostly ALL of our industries have either sold, or simply abandoned-shop, and moved to another country. Why? Americans buy foreign goods. Look around your entire house. How much American content have you sustained? I admit, you could argue that some things aren't made here, but we all know why.

When I was a lad, we were all afraid, 'the communists are coming.' Today, we fall over each other at Wal-mart, trying to give the Communist Chinese, all the profits for their products as we can, in the name of saving our money.

Here's a direct answer to your question: When you buy American, our national debt stays here, profits are turned and returned here, employment on all levels (from the manufacturer down to the retailer) is bolstered, unemployment goes down, welfare decreases, fewer loans are defaulted, Fannie Mae & Freddy Mac don't need to be bailed out, (you know the rest). in short, our economy grows.

An old saying goes: "A foolish country and his money soon part company." (Literary license) Very soon, the US will owe rather than own. Millions of Americans owe in excess of $10-20,000 in credit card debt, (and they are facing certain unemployment). It is getting worse. Lawyers are advertising, 'you only need to pay back pennies on the credit card dollar' on TV. We'll all pay, just like the S&L, and Enron collapses.

Look what happens when we depend on foreign energy! This has been going on for so long, our beloved United States is in economic shambles, headed towards utter devastation. Remember what happened to the USSR? Look for something similar to happen to the United States; division and collapse.

Who owns our debt? If China cashed-in, since they already have our factories, soon we will work for them. When we (or our children) start working for the communists, there will be no advancement, no pay raises, no OSHA or child-labor laws, no unions; all of which are far too expensive.

In short, you may save a nickel on your next foreign purchase, but it will come back and bite real hard in the future.

"REAL AMERICANS BUY WHATEVER THE HELL THEY WANT." We have the individual liberty to do that. But we've been here before, like when we were owned by England (remember the Boston Tea Party? Americans chose war over foreign-imposed taxes). We absolutely depend on other countries, like OPEC energy. Nobody forces us to pump gas, and there is no international regulatory commission. If they can get $10/gal., they will. Recovery may require substantial personal sacrifice, but we need to take back our country before our 'land of opportunity' is gone forever.

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: simplyconnected</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1948Lincoln</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What are the advantages and disadvantages in regards to buying American?</div></div>

Others on this forum, point fingers of blame at the automotive industry. Truth is, our domestic auto manufacturers are barely hanging on (look at Ford stock). This is in keeping with the rest of our economy. Look at the big picture, pertaining to your question, Wes.

Simply put, we Americans have put our hard-earned greenbacks down on so much foreign products, mostly ALL of our industries have either sold, or simply abandoned-shop, and moved to another country. Why? Americans buy foreign goods. Look around your entire house. How much American content have you sustained? I admit, you could argue that some things aren't made here, but we all know why.

When I was a lad, we were all afraid, 'the communists are coming.' Today, we fall over each other at Wal-mart, trying to give the Communist Chinese, all the profits for their products as we can, in the name of saving our money.

Here's a direct answer to your question: When you buy American, our national debt stays here, profits are turned and returned here, employment on all levels (from the manufacturer down to the retailer) is bolstered, unemployment goes down, welfare decreases, fewer loans are defaulted, Fannie Mae & Freddy Mac don't need to be bailed out, (you know the rest). in short, our economy grows.

An old saying goes: "A foolish country and his money soon part company." (Literary license) Very soon, the US will owe rather than own. Millions of Americans owe in excess of $10-20,000 in credit card debt, (and they are facing certain unemployment). It is getting worse. Lawyers are advertising, 'you only need to pay back pennies on the credit card dollar' on TV. We'll all pay, just like the S&L, and Enron collapses.

Look what happens when we depend on foreign energy! This has been going on for so long, our beloved United States is in economic shambles, headed towards utter devastation. Remember what happened to the USSR? Look for something similar to happen to the United States; division and collapse.

Who owns our debt? If China cashed-in, since they already have our factories, soon we will work for them. When we (or our children) start working for the communists, there will be no advancement, no pay raises, no OSHA or child-labor laws, no unions; all of which are far too expensive.

In short, you may save a nickel on your next foreign purchase, but it will come back and bite real hard in the future.

"REAL AMERICANS BUY WHATEVER THE HELL THEY WANT." We have the individual liberty to do that. But we've been here before, like when we were owned by England (remember the Boston Tea Party? Americans chose war over foreign-imposed taxes). We absolutely depend on other countries, like OPEC energy. Nobody forces us to pump gas, and there is no international regulatory commission. If they can get $10/gal., they will. Recovery may require substantial personal sacrifice, but we need to take back our country before our 'land of opportunity' is gone forever.

</div></div>

Very well stated from a man from Michigan. You once had a Senator named Donald Regal who was trying his damm hardest to stop what was happening in this country. I used to sit and listen to him on C-span in the very early nineties talking about the Asian auto industry when Lexus, Infinity and Acure were dumped on our market. They were just starting to take off and he was <span style="font-weight: bold">DEAD </span> against it. Carla Hills, an ex-lawyer from Old George Bush days was the trade representative that did more damage than anyone in history. From that day on I never saw or heard from him again. He should have been our President. All in all, there was <span style="font-weight: bold">too </span> much money to be made and he was in the way.....................and now where are we???

[Reatta Man]

After all that has happened this week, I don't know which is worse:

* The greedy slimy pigs in the Middle East gouging the price of oil so they can buy another mansion....or country

* The greedy slimy pigs on Wall Street gouging their profit statements in order to push up their bonuses and buy another mansion

* The greedy slimy pigs in Congress who want us to bail out the greedy slimy pigs on Wall Street because they gave them hundreds of thousands of dollars in campaign contributions

* The greedy slimy pigs in China who are so hypnotized by money that now they are poisoning THEIR OWN children in order to make more money--but not releasing the information until AFTER the Olympics

Notice a pattern here?

[Guest simplyconnected]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Reatta Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Notice a pattern here?</div></div>

I noticed the pattern when Lee Iacocca was on national TV, back in the late 1980's-1990. Let me quote him: "NAFTA is good for America." The biggest opponent was CANADA! They didn't want to lose US manufacturing, to Mexico.

The pattern is, EVERYONE IS FOR HIMSELF! All the special intrest groups rally, but so do the American people, every time we buy. You know who we support, it isn't Americans. Who pays attention to a label that says, 'MADE IN USA' (if you can find one)? I haven't seen one in so long, I almost stopped looking, because that's the exception, and 'foreign made' is the rule. Honestly, we would all be naked if we only wore domestic clothes.

That's the pattern! How many steel companies produce in the U.S.? About six years ago we lost NINTEEN in one year. That's when USS bought National because they owned blast furnaces in the Ukraine. Domestic cars are now made from foreign steel, because we don't have much choice. Just like buying DVD players or camcorders, our choice is rapidly narrowing. As you can see, soon we won't have one. Better learn a good-paying service job, or move your family abroad.

Bob (Skyking), Donald Wayne Riegle, Jr. (D) from Flint (the home of Buick and the soul of GM), Michigan, served as a US Congressman, and as a US Senator; a career spanning from 1967-95. All of Michigan sorely misses his insightful leadership, honesty, and nearly 40 years of proven dedication to all of us.

[Guest Skyking]

It's just a darn shame only a small percent of us think the way we do................. Maybe things would be different.

[JalopyBob]

Dave@Moon stated that the profit to the manufacturer is never more than 1%. Dave look at it from this perspective. Why would you go through all of the trouble to manufacture any product for a profit of 1% or less when you could put your money in to CD's and earn 3 or 4 or 5 times more with no investment or effort? No business works on a 1% profit and survives, unless it is being subsidized from an outside source.

[Guest Skyking]

Can you imagine Toyota & Honda making 1 %..... yea, I thought so........

[Guest simplyconnected]

Profits are made on many levels. American Motors cars were CHEAP! They used many parts from GM and Ford (and everywhere else). Dealership parts were sky-high, and so were the 'service' prices (they go together).

Foreign parts are no different. Dump the car, and make up in parts and service. Once a customer has the initial investment, he will spend big bucks to maintain it.

My buddy has a Mercedes. The key switch broke. After pricing a new key switch, he decided screwdrivers come cheap. Same guy owns an Infinity. One of the struts froze. $1,200 is what they want to change both at the dealership. He had little choice.

It's true; why should Ford & GM make less profits than they can at the bank? Might as well lay everyone off, sell it all, and put your money in the bank. Don't think they won't do exactly that. Bean counters run these companies, and they are in business for money. That's why they outsource everything they can. There's no love for manufacturing, it's just a necessary evil.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why would you go through all of the trouble to manufacture any product for a profit of 1% or less when you could put your money in to CD's and earn 3 or 4 or 5 times more with no investment or effort? No business works on a 1% profit and survives, unless it is being subsidized from an outside source. </div></div>

#1 Because the last time I checked nobody was selling oil filters and ball joints for CD's and money market funds, even the new ones with Fed backing.

#2 1% of GM's gross is a lot more money than 1% of a typical pet shop. <span style="font-style: italic">Volume/volume/volume</span> to paraphrase.

#3 Speaking of volume, the retail grocery industry operates on a good deal less than 1% profit. Again <span style="font-style: italic">volume/volume/volume!</span>

[Dave@Moon]

Simplyconnected, I guess you just beat me to the punch on #1 in my post.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> My buddy has a Mercedes. The key switch broke. After pricing a new key switch, he decided screwdrivers come cheap. Same guy owns an Infinity. One of the struts froze. $1,200 is what they want to change both at the dealership. He had little choice.</div></div>

A friend of mine that owns a foreign car garage in eastern PA called me aside to show me a small box (about 4" square). He asked me to guess what it was and what it cost. Turned out to be a blower motor for a Mercedes 240D. It cost him $480.00 over the counter.

This was more than 20 years ago.

[charlier]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> #3 Speaking of volume, the retail grocery industry operates on a good deal less than 1% profit. Again <span style="font-style: italic">volume/volume/volume!</span> </div></div>

Yes, it is true that the retail grocery industry makes very little on the proudcts they sell.

They do however make VAST AMOUNTS of money selling real estate (ie shelf space).

One way or another, manufacturers of food and food products pay HUGE amounts of money for this real estate.

When the grocery chain decides to reduce (or eliminate) the space for a vendor, the other vendors scramble

to get that space.

If the vendor who was booted out wants back in, it usually takes time and a LOT of MONEY (in one form or another) to get shelf space once again.

If you think oil companies are bad, the retail grocery industy is not far behind with some of their business practices.

BTW, when I purchased my last new vehicle I looked at offerings from the Big Three as well as German and Japanese automakers. Unfortunately, the offerings from the Big Three did not fill my needs and did not offer the value for my hard earned money. The German offering had quality/reliability issues so that left the Japanese offerings, one of which I purchased. Once the Big Three have offerings that fill my needs, then maybe they have a shot at my future business.

[MCHinson]

I realize that I am a member of an unrecognized minority group of Americans... Those that really try to buy American Products.

I am an Eagle Scout, and I work in Law Enforcement. I say I am am frugal. My wife says I am cheap. I still believe that buying quality products made in America is what is best for me and for my country.

Call me closed minded if you want to, but I really do look for American manufactured goods and buy them whenever I can. I was raised in a small town in Southeastern North Carolina. In my youth, I had major problems with the only two (used) imported cars that our family bought, and I have bought Fords, Buicks and Chevrolets ever since. I currently have two antique Fords. I tow them in an American built trailer behind a Chevrolet Tahoe. I Drive a Ford Police Car.

Every year I buy the Dash Plaques for our local Chapter Car Show. I buy them from a company that has a sticker on their box that says, "NOTHING in this box was made in China!" I peeled one of those stickers off and put it where my family sees it every day so we don't forget.

[Guest simplyconnected]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MCHinson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I still believe that buying quality products made in America is what is best for me and for my country.</div></div>

Matt, it's also an investment in our economic future. Amazing how Americans fail to realize, we're all in the same boat. When the Canadian Dollar passed the American greenback in value, the affect compares us in the world market. We have the volume, but now our dollar buys LESS than it did a year ago; prices are rising.

Dave Moon, production blower motors don't cost $480, unless 90% of that cost is due to inflated world-wide shipping and extensive handling. Is this an example of, 'whatever the market will bear?' With many 'custom' parts (out of production), I understand the expense, otherwise it's plain "gouging."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">#3 Speaking of volume, the retail grocery industry operates on a good deal less than 1% profit. Again <span style="font-style: italic">volume/volume/volume!</span></div></div>

Sorry Dave, but I have to disagree on the investment issue. 1% profit/dollar invested still equals 1%, whether from a bank or a dealership. I worked in grocery, and you're right, canned goods turn a 1% profit. Meat, Produce, Dairy, Health & Beauty Aids, and Snack foods return a MUCH higher percentage.

Who goes shopping for just canned goods? Look in anyone's cart for the answer, and all the grocers know it. They put 'lost leaders' on sale, just to get you in their store. If you don't see a product on the shelf, ask for it, and it will be there, just to get you back in the store to buy more. What's the average amount each customer drops at the grocery store? $100? Last time I went it was $160. Four lanes had long lines. No wonder Brinks comes often.

Car companies do the same thing with 'free airconditioning,' zero interest, or cash rebates, for a limited time. Profits come from many levels, and that's why dumping proved to be profitable for the Japanese: You use their product, which creates maintenance costs; same tactics American Motors used decades ago.

Remember when Chevy offered new body styles EVERY YEAR (1957, 1958, 1959), but VW didn't for decades? What a difference in profit tactics. Temporary 'style' sells cars, and volume exponentially sweetens the pot. VW offered an ugly, cheap, bug, but they were in for the long-term volume haul.

Here's a real cost/volume example:

We run 450 fenders/hr on one stamping line, using 45 men. Each guy makes ~$30/hr. 45X$30=$1,350/450= $3 in labor for each finished (unpainted) fender. What about die costs? Here's where volume comes in. Many dies are carried-over a few years, so we can't say how much the part really costs until the die is no longer used, which could be many years later, especially for inner-panel parts; don't forget 'service parts' runs, either. With each stamping, the cost/part lowers. After millions of parts, die costs are insignificant/part. Once they get you in, subsequent cars become cheaper to make. Foreign makers realize, dumping makes sense.

Today, all cars look boringly similar, and only a few are really fun to drive. Cadillacs and Lincolns are SUV's or compacts, now. They don't resemble luxury styling from the past. If you took the logo off, most drivers couldn't guess the make. Truth is, there's NO reason to buy foreign. Americans don't have a sense of patriotism, and they prove it every time they cast their money abroad. Sorry, but we are quickly losing our 'right' to economic freedom by the temptation of lower foreign prices. Wall Street doesn't lose 500 points/day for nothing.

[Reatta Man]

After all is said and done about profit margins and money going to foreign countries, I still rank buying a quality product that helps keep fellow Americans working as my top priority.

1. Many American makes are virtually tied with many Japanese makes for quality. Some (such as Buick and Cadillac) beat out nearly all foreign makes.

2. The Web site I linked to earlier (http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org/) shows more Americans are supported by buying a 'legacy' American car vs. a foreign car made in the U.S. Yes, some of the stats are 'cherry picked' but EVERYONE uses the stats that they think are relevant to the information they are seeking.

So, to me, case closed.

[Guest simplyconnected]

Closed? Let me speak in generalities, here... Why do I see so many more foreign cars in the parking lots of:

US Military Bases

Universities

Both, the eastern US coast and western US coast major cities

Hospitals, particularly Doctor's parking lots?

Most of these foreign cars are high-end, not base models.

Now that our factories are gone and so are the jobs, I'm seeing different crimes. Around Detroit, if a house is for sale and left empty, the first thing crooks do, is take all the copper they can; pipes, electrical wiring, etc. Another epidemic around the Metro Detroit area is, entering UN-locked cars, and stealing anything of value, mostly loose change.

Garbage day brings lots of folks. Any appliance is immediately relieved of it's cord. I asked one of the pickup-pickers about that, and he said, "You may not get much copper from one cord, but by the end of the day, you might get enough copper to bring $25-$30." From LAMP cords! AND, they have to strip the insulation off the copper. I discarded an old electric range last week. It didn't last ONE HOUR at the curb. I put it out at 1:30am, and before 2:30am it was gone. My garbage pick-up is at 7:00am, so these guys are roaming around all night.

We've always had petty theft, but not nearly on the scale we do today. Florida has had this for some time, but Michigan robbers have just started robbing people while they are home, in broad daylight. They used to wait until the house is empty. Now, they want you home, so you will open the safe.

Times are tough, there are no jobs, and prices are not done rising. We just learned, our electric will increase 10% this winter.

Since most of our factories are in other countries, the next move I expect is to hear GM or Ford announce they're setting up world headquarters in some tax-free country. Nothing is preventing them from moving out.

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: simplyconnected</div><div class="ubbcode-body">....Why do I see so many more foreign cars in the parking lots of:

US Military Bases

Universities</div></div>

Simple. If you remove the emotional quotient of 'buy American, etc., and look only at the empirical facts, you discover that 'the consumer' (<span style="font-style: italic">all </span>free choice consumers) will, <span style="font-style: italic">as a group</span>, make the choice that is of the greatest benefit to them. An examination of reliability records of major manufacturers over the past 25 years will point out that Asian import brands have on average consistently achieved higher reliability and customer satisfaction levels.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: simplyconnected</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... Now that our factories are gone and so are the jobs, I'm seeing different crimes...

</div></div>

In Detroit (and most of Michigan), you can lay most of the blame for this on: politics (high taxes and a propensity to raise them relentlessly to counter declining revenues), unions (high cost labor), education (failing schools... unemployable graduates). You may choose to blame the party of your choice, but I'd focus on the one in power for the past fifty years. In fact, it's a good representative model for the end result of liberal policies. All the components above are interdependent and interactive. The balance of the country should really pay attention to this "European Plan".

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: simplyconnected</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Since most of our factories are in other countries, the next move I expect is to hear GM or Ford announce they're setting up world headquarters in some tax-free country. Nothing is preventing them from moving out. </div></div>

If you think it's going to get better, it's not. An 'not' is on a national scale. The current effort by the liberal partisan party is to enact the "Employee Free Choice Act (EFCA)(H.R. 800, S. 1041)" which (in irony to it's title), will remove secret ballots from the union adoption process, among other enticing union benefits. It is an enlightening academic exercise to <span style="text-decoration: underline">follow the money </span>on this effort. You'll see some interesting and familiar names. Besides, now that the parasite has nearly killed the host industry, it must have a new host industry to feed the coffers.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: simplyconnected</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Garbage day brings lots of folks. ...I discarded an old electric range last week. It didn't last ONE HOUR at the curb...</div></div>

We know about copper, that's happening everywhere. The office complex my company occupies was raided for all (14) the copper/brass pressure reduction valves one weekend. At 100 pounds apiece, the scrap value wasn't chump change, but replacement cost was ~$140K.

Steel brings about $.01/lb, but If you're filching abandoned appliances that can add up quickly. There will be more of this as the current systems drags on. Daylight robbery makes a good case for purchasing a firearm... if you can...

Cheers,

JMC

[Dave@Moon]

Our caravan stopped at a Subway at the TN/KY border for lunch on the way down to Triumph TR6 6-Pack Trials (Meet) in southeastern Tennesse. The place was "cash only" for the day. Someone had ripped out their ethernet cable from the side of the building, probably for the copper, so they had no computer/credit card access.

It was a fiberoptic cable.

Stupid people and crooks have been around forever. I can remember people being elctrocuted in the Pittburgh steel mills trying to steal copper wire and coils in the 1970s, years before they closed. They're not an indicator of anything except the ongoing desperation of poverty which never stops.

Now finally, the concept that "buying American" has been conclusively shown here to be little more than an outmoded concept (as far as the automobile market is concerned) to anyone really reading the material here. There are some industries from the old world that might still be saved, but better than that there are industries that need to be developed for the next world. That's where the real jobs will be.

While we're all sending 1 to 1.5 billion dollars a day overseas to buy gasoline becuase we're too patriotic (or something that rhymes with it) to drive a Prius, we might be better serving ourselves to conduct that discussion.

And by the way, only a fool buys a car as a charity contribution. That <span style="text-decoration: underline">never</span> works!

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It was a fiberoptic cable. </div></div>

As always, ignorance can be temporary, stupidity is for life.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are some industries from the old world that might still be saved, but better than that there are industries that need to be developed for the next world. That's where the real jobs will be.</div></div>

Well said. Reminds me of my earlier life when I had frequent occasion to visit the Pittsburgh suburb of Lawrenceville. Many of the old, small mills were gasping their last breath, and the local bars were full of unemployed union workers hailing the coming return of the mills. I think they're still in those bars... Train for something new? No way. Got my union benefits to protect. So where are we today? In 1970 the US produced 91 million tons of steel... in 2007 107 million tons. The workforce, at 159,000 is 70% smaller than in 1970. Steel produced in this country is widely sought for it's high quality and ability to produce specialty products.

From the Dept of Labor with regards to steel industry employment:

* Employment is expected to continue to decline due to consolidation and further automation of the steelmaking process.

* Employers staffing production and maintenance jobs increasingly prefer individuals with 2-year degrees in mechanical or electrical technology.

* Opportunities will be best for engineers, computer scientists, business majors, and skilled production and maintenance workers.

Upshot: Learn and prosper or die hungry in the dark.

Wonder what our schools are preparing today's kids for...

More to the point, consider the following from a Washington Post article by Michael Fletcher, June 1, 2008 (which also contributed to comments above):

"The (steel) industry shed more than 400,000 jobs in the United States from the 1980s to the early part of the current decade. More than 40 companies tumbled into bankruptcy, leaving thousands of retirees without health coverage and with sharply reduced pensions. Many of the bankrupt companies were later snapped up by private-equity firms, which were able to restructure the mills into larger, more-efficient enterprises that in many cases found new investors. The new owners invested in technology, and freed of the pensions and other legacy costs that burdened previous owners, they were able to run the businesses more cheaply."

This entire paragraph is predictive of most of our 'old technology' manufacturing infrastructure. Watch GM/FMC/CMC in the coming few years...

Cheers,

JMC

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...The place was "cash only" for the day. Someone had ripped out their ethernet cable from the side of the building, probably for the copper, so they had no computer/credit card access.</div></div>

Still open, huh? Cash only? Obviously not a union establishment.

There is a theme in my ranting...

JMC

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The place was "cash only" for the day. Someone had ripped out their ethernet cable from the side of the building, probably for the copper, so they had no computer/credit card access.

</div></div>

How in the heck did they make change??

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

While we're all sending 1 to 1.5 billion dollars a day overseas to buy gasoline becuase we're too patriotic (or something that rhymes with it) to drive a Prius, we might be better serving ourselves to conduct that discussion.

</div></div>

we are paying 1 to 1.5 billion dollars a day. It has nothing to do with buying a Prius.