1916 Buick 'Busselback'

[72caddy]

An aqantence of mine of several years that buys/sells cars at a fever pitch recently aquired this car - which

I seem captivated by. I do not have any experence with restoring a car of this vintage and probably didn't ask all the 'right' questions.

It is complete but a needs everyting. Not a rust bucket or covered in surface rust (but does have surface patches of rust on the body). No top.

Are there any major issues I should check out before pursueing this? Parts ahard to come by? etc?

Any advice would be appreciated. As well as a ballpark range of what to offer or negiociate to for a car of this type.

Thanks in advance

[JO BO]

Hi; Good questions you ask. I would start by asking yourself how far do you want to go with this car? e.g. fix up to putt around with,restore to show or display etc.. Consider how original you wish to keep her. Then consider your budget,how much of the work you can..or want to do yourself. Find all the available literature you can for your car. Enlist the help of those who own or have restored this particular make/model.(They are often good sources for parts). Before you remove even one bolt get your notebook and camera ready to document every step you take in dissasembly so you can put her back together the way she came apart. Be prepared for surprises , they will come. Above all have fun even if things don't progress at the pace you wish.

[72caddy]

Thanks JoBo

I have restored a 72 Cadillac Eldorado Conv (from a near basket case to a driver) and helped friends and other help debug their projects. I know from experence your advice is spot-on.

I am mainly looking for a driver to put around in. One day when I have more space I would do a full body-off restoration. I mainly use cars as my 'outlet' from a very stressful software job. I find getting my hands dirty turning wrenches is very theraputic. Costs (purchase and ongoing) are a concern as I do this on a budget - but as long as the value keeps pace over a long period I have no issues with the cost. I don't buy, do a little and then try to turn them around in a short period. I am a buy and keep type of person - my poor kids!

I have been frustrated many times, had to search high and lower for correct parts and even try to fix factory issues (the 70's quality was not a mandate) but that is what I like. I think I like the challenge more than I like to drive.

[Mark Shaw]

A 1916 car is actually more easily and cost effectively restored than more modern cars with AC, power brakes, and sooo much chrome like the 50s Buicks. The expensive fixes would be the crankshaft, rusty pitted cylinders, tranny, & starter/generator.

If the engine starts & runs OK, you are half way there. If you can drive it, run through the gears and verify the clutch works OK, you are 3/4 of the way there. Wheel & axle bearings & seals are relatively easy to find or replicate. The rest is primarily cosmetic.

Sealing the gas tank, fixing wood wheels, getting the carburator to work properly are all just tinkering jobs. They will take time, but can easily be done in your own garage.

I say go for it if you like the car.

[72caddy]

Thanks,

The drive-train is the big question mark. As all this man did was roll it off the trailer and shove it in his building then pulled to Packards off and boxed in the Buick. He doesn't even know if the motor is free - it is not running; that is known. I like mechanical work so that is a plus to me.

Any idea on a value? I have looked at old price guides and tried to find similiar sales of cars of the same vintage - but projects are very different.

[JO BO]

Hi; Value is always an issue open to argument. It's hard to find online price guides. Go to your google search box and type in.... the gold book.....They have a price guide section. I don't agree with all of their quotes but it's a start. I also do auction result searchs from all the major auction houses, as well as advertisements offering vehicles for sale in all kinds of conditions. You will soon get a feel for an approximation on the vehicle you are looking at.After you have an idea of value , feel out your seller as to what he would like to get for it. Offer lower than you feel value might be (not so low he may feel offended)although you will encounter those that no amount,regardless of how high seems right. Then you will have wiggle room to up the offer if he is hesitant. Also he may accept and if a hidden (expensive) flaw arises you have paid fairly for the car. I know this is all basic stuff. Is there any way you could post a picture of the car for us, so we all may have a crack at what we feel it may bring? Thanks

[Guest imported_Thriller]

Manheim Gold - this is the only source that I am aware of that goes back that far as price guides go. Keeping in mind that price guides are based on the market, and there isn't a big market in 1916 Buicks, the guide can't be terribly accurate.

It does come down ultimately to what a buyer and seller can agree on.

I'm afraid I can't offer any real guidance to this car...the closest I have is a '29 and I haven't done any work on it yet. I'd be leery of a car that has been sitting for a while in unknown condition...alternatively, if it is complete and the price is reasonable (i.e. not based on something the seller saw at Barrett-Jackson), it would definitely be a neat project.

If it is something you want and you said you are in it for the long haul, then go for it...I'm in IT too...you need the therapy

[72caddy]

Thanks Thriller and JoBo,

I looked at Manheim the other day. It seems out of whack when you compare the values of the same era Model T and other cars of that era. So that is where I get confused - why such a large difference ($4500 verses $9500? He is always high priced on his fifties stuff, but this one he may be more reasonable as it is not what he usually deals in and may want it gone.

Pictures would be difficult as you can't even get walk around the car as it sits right now. You can only see the rear because that is where the door to the building is. It is pinned in by two 27 packard 7 pass., a 30 hudson super sixty, a 36 buick 3 window sidemount coupe and what I think is a 27 Chevy touring. He probably has 60 other cars but not as nice as the ones in this building (most are basket cases).

He said he wold get me a price in the month or so. Some Swedish buyers are coming in and he is trying to line up enough Cadillacs to make it worth their while - I may even sell my 72 eldo to them (need the space)

[Mark Shaw]

Manheim Gold pricing does look low:

1916 BUICK Series D44/45 S Fair - Good - Exc - Show - Loan

ROADSTER 1916-17 225/45 9,500 14,500 17,500 21,500 13,000

Keep in mind that fair would be a car with an engine that runs in my value guide. With a high of $13,000, start subtracting how much it would take for you to make this car a show car by doing all the work yourself. You may arrive at a negotiatable price to offer, but I assure you that you would have to get the car for free to make it a show car worth only $13,000.

I think this model would be worth closer to $20,000 when done, & I would budget $8-10,000 to do it myself.

[Dandy Dave]

Also you will want to get an idea of how the condition of the rearend, axles are. It is not uncommon to have a broken axle or a bad ring and pinion gear set in these early cars. Dave!

[72caddy]

I have some photos, but unsure how to post them on this forum.

the owner thought he was buying a low production 'speedster', but when mentioned that the 6-cyl motor was common and that this was probably a D44, of which they made many - he tightened up a bit.

I may go for a 28 Willy's-Knight that is in much better shape that I could get for about $5K - plus run the kids around in it.

[Guest imported_Thriller]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 72caddy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> a 36 buick 3 window sidemount coupe </div></div>

Drool....

There is a thread in a couple of the forums (Me and My Buick for sure) that describe how to put photos in the thread. The easiest way is probably to use the "File Manager" to attach photos...it is below the box you type in when posting. It allows you to browse to find the file on your computer and attach it. If you can't get that to work, if you e-mail me the files I could post them for you.

[72caddy]

Here are some pictures:

[Guest imported_Thriller]

Sigh.

[Dandy Dave]

Both the motor and frame number's would also help. Is the motor complete? Starter generator? Carbuetor? correct muffler? Looks like a project. If you could get those numbers, David Corbin can help with some factory insight on the car. Dave!

[jbbuick22]

72caddy,

In the pics. I see parts of at least 2 cars, a roadster

model 44 rear section, a model 45 touring rear section, and can not id the cowl, which does not look like an open car cowl

poss a sedan cutdown. The frame # and engine would help id the year and poss the orig body.

JB

[72caddy]

Here is another shot of inside the cowl. I could not get around to the front when I was there last.

[72caddy]

Picture of the rear.

[jbbuick22]

72caddy,

There is something about the cowl that does not look Buick, holes for the wind shield posts,and missing hole for the horn on the firewall.

JB

Sherborn MA

22-6-55 Sport Touring

[72caddy]

Well the saga continues...went out after work and really looked hard with the new infolrmation that everyone so helpfully supplied. Turns out he has 4 frames, 3 motors (1 I did not look at), 3 cowls, 2 or 3 hoods, etc. etc.

The cowl delimma (is it or is it not an open car cowl?) It is an open cowl the bottom bracket was produced and it lined up with the holes in the cowl and looked correct. especially when I compared it to the other open cowl fully asssembled under a tarp.

So here are the numbers if someone can help me out:

These are 'loose' frames with nothing much else other than running board and fender brackets

Frame #1: badge on frame 283654

Frame #2: badge on frame 834696

Car #2 - not muchmore than engine, frame (complete) and cowl, doors and front seat (no rear section)

Frame # (on the rear of the frame passenger side)497205

Engine # (Engine WITH vavle cover; no exposed rockers):432009

Car I am interested in - more complete; fairly straight

Frame # (under left headlight) 255818

Engine # (Missing distributor cap) 261598

Won't give me a price yet because the car is full of part boxes and he wants to make sure he doesn't sell any Packard parts with the car by mistake. He also wants to assemble as much as he can so he can get a higher price.

As always, thanks for any insight you can provide.

[Guest DaveCorbin]

Dear Caddy:

Here's the info you asked about, in the order you asked the questions:

283654 is a frame for a 1917 D35 4 cylinder car.

834696 is a frame for a 1922 model 54 6 cylinder roadster.

497205 is a frame for a 1919 H45 touring 6 cylinder car.

432009 is a 1918 engine 4 cylinder. It would fit the 1917 frame.

255818 is a frame number for a 1916 D44 roadster.

261598 is an engine number for a 1916 D44 and is most probably the original engine for frame 255818.

Does this help?

Regards, Dave Corbin

[Guest DaveCorbin]

Dear Caddy:

While Buick factory records indicate that 432009 should be a 4 cylinder engine, Buick sometimes mixed things up. If it's a 6 cylinder, it's still a 1918, but would fit in 497205, although it's the wrong year.

Regards, Dave Corbin

[72caddy]

Thanks for that information.

Engine #432009 is indeed a 6 cyclinder motor and is mounted in Frame # 497205