LINC400

I think most of these lists are compiled by people that are completely clueless about cars. They probably look at a coffee table book with pictures, and make their list by their own personal tastes without any knowledge whatsoever. In addition, any design that is different will have people that love it, and people that hate it. I applaud any efforts at different design, whether I personally like it or not. It takes a lot more courage to do something different than to copy the same bland design as everyone else. For that reason alone, I do not think a Pontiac Aztek belongs on any ugly list, even though I do not personally care for them. What is ugly is a 1957 Hudson or 1958 Packard Hawk. They took perfectly good designs from Nash and Studebaker, and in attempt to make them not recognizeable from their origin (which they didn't accomplish), made them way more hideous.

If you prefer Cadillacs, that is your opinion. However to say that Lincoln was an also-ran to Cadillac is not true. The 1960's Lincolns had nothing in common with Cadillac. They were understated and timeless as opposed to Cadillac's flashier look that changed every 2 years. One is not necessarily better than the other. It depends on what you prefer. The Mark series Lincolns outsold the Eldorado every single year with Eldo offering both a coupe and convertible. The 4 door Cadillacs outsold the Continental/Town Car, but the Continental was also priced much higher than the DeVille. Fleetwoods did not have huge sales volumes either. Lincoln sales actually picked up a lot in 1977 when Cadillac downsized, and remained high through 1979. The Versailles and 1982 Continental were not Lincolns best. But how about a Cimmaron or Catera? How great are those? My personal opinion is I do not care how wonderfully a car drives, what gas mileage it gets, how nice the interior might be if a car's styling is unattractive to me. I have to see it every day and be seen in it. The 1985-86 Full size GM's were most definitely not a styling improvement in my opinion. Chicago used to be prime Buick territory. When the Roadmaster came out in 1992, one Chicago auto critic bashed it as being a dinosaur. That drew a huge response from Chicago Buick dealers that bashed him right back. They stated that they could not believe the huge number of 1970's-1984 Buicks and Oldsmobiles that came in on trade. There were also a lot of Caprices, Crown Vics, and Marquis that came in on trade. They said that their traditional buyers either held on to their old cars or switched to Chevy, Ford, or Mercury because Buick and Olds were not offering the type of car they wanted. And they were thrilled that Buick finally came out with a car that their traditional buyers wanted. Ford did not downsize when GM did because they did not think that the public would like the smaller cars. Not because they had financial problems. They finally did downsize a couple years later. But in a way, they were right. When Lincoln downsized in 1980, their sales dropped to about a third of 1979's. It seems unbelievably coincidental that both Lincoln and Buick independently decided to offer Collector versions of the last of their full size models. Especially since Buick's came 6 years later. GM offered their own ersatz special editions. Fleetwood Talisman, Eldorado Biarritz and Bicentennial editions, etc. Those were their own ideas and I see nothing wrong with that. The Collector Edition, however, was a blatant copy. The fact that it was copied alone wasn't that bad. Automakers copy each other all the time. It was the fact that it was copied and zero effort was put into it. The special editions were hardly rejected by the public as more and more special ersatz editions rolled out from every manufacturer as the 70's rolled on. In fact Lincoln seemed to be the most succcessful with them as special editions accounted for more than 30% of their sales. To each his own, but personally I like the special editions. It is a way of getting a car that is a little more unique than your average model. The exact same way and reason that they sold when they were new. I also disagree with the disdain for the 1970's cars. IMO that is the last era that cars were sold based on style. Not fuel economy, bean counting or other ideas that make the cars less interesting. They also had the most to deal with in that decade with fuel shortages, crash standards, emission standards, and lots of other goverment interference that previously did not exist. Yet they managed to produce lines of cars with style and actual size differences and a variety of body styles. Unlike today when everything is a 4 door sedan that is pretty much the same look and size as everything else.

Looks a lot better than vinyl, which is what the majority of 1970's Buicks had. Considering I've seen a lot of 1970's Electras, and have never even seen any with these console interiors, that is most obviously not your average Electra interior. So if you wanted to buy the absolute top of the line Electra, equip it with the most expensive interior option, and order every option on it so that you were at a higher price than a basic Cadillac, you could get a car as plush as a Lincoln. However, I see no point to that entire discussion which has nothing to do with the original post. The post was about the Collectors Edition LeSabre. Which as I have said was copied from Lincoln, was nowhere near as plush, and had nowhere near the effort Lincoln put into it. Care to explain how a hood ornament, dash plaque, and portfolio make the car as special or plush as all the items made standard on the Collectors Series Lincoln? Not to mention the fact that some people have not even heard of the Collectors Edition Buick, or those that like Buicks don't even think it is worth anything more than a standard LeSabre? As I already said, the Lincoln Collectors Series commands a premium over the standard 1979's. Does the Buick? According to price guides the Lincoln Collectors Series commands a premium. The Buick Collector Edition isn't even mentioned, while a/c and a V-8 are listed as what adds value to a LeSabre. Both are standard on the bottom of the line Lincoln.

We agree there. The Buick Collector Edition was no comparison to Lincoln's Collectors Series. That was the whole point of my post.

Those would be the most expensive interior options on the top of the line Electra Limited/Park Ave. So you would have to get the most expensive interior in the most expensive Electra in order to have an interior of the same quality as a base Lincoln. Also it would have to be extremely well optioned in order to compete with Lincolns standard equipment.

It was not my idea to compare Buick and Lincoln interiors. However, I believe vinyl is much too cheap a material to be used on any full size Buick. You could get a Ford Granada with a plusher velour interior. So I really think it was unacceptable for Buick to be using vinyl. The 80's interiors were more tasteful. However, for the 1970's, you would have to get one of the rare fabric or velour interiors on an extremely well optioned car to get the same level of luxury offered standard on a base Lincoln. This makes sense since as I already said, Buick was not intended to compete with Lincoln. Also Oldsmobile seemed to have a lot more choices in fabric and velour than Buick with a lot less emphasis on vinyl during that same time period, and Buick was supposed to be the more expensive car.

The Lincoln convertibles had leather seats, not vinyl. And that still does not explain cheap vinyl in the Riviera, Electra, and non-convertible LeSabre and Centurion. It is also quite easy to tell the difference between Buick vinyl and leather. Simply leave the top down for a few hours in the hot sun and then have a seat in your Buick. Even better if you are wearing shorts. The Lincoln Mark series outsold the Eldorado coupe, convertible, and LeSabre/Centurion convertibles combined. So it does not seem like they lost out on much by not offering a convert in the '70's.

You are showing me a 1980-84 Park Ave. Yes, those cars have nice interiors. However, I have never driven one. I used to own a 1988 Town Car. My friend has several 1980-91 rwd Cadillac DeVille/Boughams. While the interior looks as plush as a Lincoln, they are not as nice. They are very trucky to drive in comparison, and the seats might look comfortable, but they are not for long trips. The Buick being based on the same body might or might not be more comfortable. But I already said that GM's mistake was dropping the 1980-84/5 rwds, not making them. Of course Lincoln also screwed up the steering for the 1990's Town Cars and added the problem prone air suspension. I was at a Buick grand invitational a couple years ago in my friend's 1973 Centurion convertible. It has just about every option I think, and it is nowhere near as plush as a '70's Lincoln. And it has, drum roll, vinyl seats. In fact just about every 1970's Buick there had vinyl seats including Electras and Rivieras, the top of the line models. Buick should have been putting in the 1980 type interiors all along, not cheap vinyl. They got the interiors right for a few years in the early '80's, and then dropped the ball with the fwd replacements. And if they were going to do a commemorative edition for the last of the rwds, they deserved something better than just a hood ornament and portfolio.

Ok the bailout comment was mean. But that was in response to the Lincoln bashing. As far as new vehicles, I am not impressed by any 2010 Buick or Lincoln. In my opinion, the only one of interest is the Town Car which is an aging design on an even older platform that looks much more like a Marquis than a Lincoln. If I were going to buy something new it would be a Camaro, Challenger, or Mustang. And I do not even like muscle cars. They are simply the only new cars that have any personality and have 2 doors. I still stand by my original comments though. Like I said, while special editions were nothing new, I am not aware of any company using Collectors Series/Edition badging before Lincoln in 1979. The Collectors Series Mark V had a completely unique interior with special velour, console, thicker carpeting, special wood and metal trim (although plastic), leather wrapped dash, most options standard, special gold plated grill, roof treatment, color keyed wheels, tool kit, umbrella, leather wrapped owners manual, gold plated badging, limited colors, padded Continental hump, plush color-keyed carpeted trunk, special hood ornament, and probably a few more things I've forgotten. This was to commemorate the last true full size Lincolns. To commemorate the last rwd Buick in 1985, Buick offered the Collectors Edition with special hood ornament, dash plaque, and portfolio. How is that not a cheap copy with nowhere near the effort Lincoln put into it? The Collectors Series Lincolns do command a premium over the standard 1979's now. I do not think anyone will be paying a premium because of a hood ornament on a LeSabre. The hood ornament itself and portfolio may command a premium on Ebay, but I do not see anyone paying more for the Collectors Edition LeSabre over a regular one. I actually like the 1984-5 Park Avenue and LeSabre. I cannot see how anyone thought that the 1985-6 models were an improvement. I really can't see how anyone would pay more for a 1985 Park Ave instead of paying less for the much nicer 1985 LeSabre. I am not a fan of downsizing. But it can be done well. The 1979 downsized Riviera was a huge improvement over the previous years bland looking can't really tell it apart from the LeSabre model. The smaller size and curvaceous lines with verticle roof gave it a sporty yet formal look. A great design. The 1985-6 Park Ave and LeSabre were just extremely bland boxes that looked like they had the front and rear chopped off. They didn't look much different than the much cheaper Pontiac 6000. I thought they were a bad idea then, and still think so now. The buyer of a 1975 LeSabre or Electra would never look at a Honda or Toyota. However, by the late 1980's when a LeSabre was the same size, price, had the same equipment, and the media was hyping how wonderful foreign cars were, why not look at a Honda or Toyota instead of a Buick? If the Toyota or Honda was a little less expensive, even better. GM was stupid by making everything a fwd little box and abandoning their traditional buyers. There was no reason they could not have made both. I like GM's, but chopping and downsizing everything is something I will never forgive them for. The first round in 1977-8 was perhaps needed, but the second round in 1985-6 was not, and it was not well done either. Lincolns are not the most fabulous cars ever. They have their flaws. My biggest complaint is the armrests and wood on the steering wheel on the Mark Series. They crack on every car. There is actually very little interchangeable between a Mark IV and V interior. However, in an incredibly stupid move, when the armrests and steering wheels were already going back to Lincoln for replacements under warranty on the Mark IV, those were the 2 items they carried over to the Mark V. However the comments that a LeSabre/Park Ave are plusher than a Lincoln are ridiculous. How is vinyl plusher than leather or velour? The standard engine on most Buicks was a 350 (and I was NOT impressed by the one in my 1975) as opposed to a 460 or later 400 standard in a Lincoln. My 1975 Buick did not have power windows, locks, seats, rear window defroster ( great fun in Chicago), FM radio, etc. because those were all optional on a Buick, but standard on a Lincoln. In fact the only things my Buick had that my friend's much cheaper 1972 Nova did not were a/c, a clock, and a cigarette lighter. Not very prestigious. But then Buicks were not made to compete with Lincolns. Cadillacs were. And I have to say that I thought the vinyl interiors were indeed tacky. From leather and brocades in the 1950's and 1960's, how did Buick ever think that vinyl was a suitable material for an upper middle class car in the 1970's? Olds 98's were less expensive and had much nicer interiors. So did Chryslers and Mercurys. By the way, I own both a Buick and a Lincoln.

No it is different. A Ranchero or ElCamino is based on the car or station wagon. Parts are interchangeable with the car it is based on. A Dodge Sweptside is based on the Dodge pick up. While the rear quarterpanels came from the Dodge wagon (and I think those are modified, you can't just replace them with ones from a Dodge wagon, but I am not 100% sure on that.) the rest of the truck is based on the truck and does not have interchangeable parts with the Dodge wagon or any Dodge cars.

I agree, Rancheros and ElCaminos are not pick ups. They are car based, and have way more in common with the car they are based on than a pick up. However, I strongly disagree with the LTD II comment. The LTD II Rancheros were much sportier and more attractive than the Torino or Falcon based Rancheros except for the 1970-71 Torino Ranchero. My vote for most attractive p/u is the 1957 Dodge Sweptside

A few years ago somewhere on a clearance rack, I picked up a book called "American Dream Cars" by Frumkin and Hall. It covers from the 1940's through early 2000 concept cars. Unfortunately it only has a few sentences and one or two pictures about each, but it covers most concept cars including many I have never even heard of. The future looked so cool in the 1930's-60's. Now that it is here, it pretty much sucks. The old stuff is what is cool.

I buy things because they bring me pleasure, not because I can make a profit on them. I feel sorry for anybody that has a wife that berates their spouse's collections or hobbies. My father buys jewelry, furs, goes to concerts and the theater, and takes his wife on expensive vacations. Yet she has a big fit if he wants to go to a car show and refuses to go. Years ago I was dating a woman and it started to get serious. She walked around my house and pointed at various rare and expensive antiques and said, this has to go, that has to go, that is hideous, that has to go, etc. I said actually there is only one thing I need to get rid of and then everything else will be fine. "And what is that?" she asked. "You" I said. Cars and collections can be sold for cash if you get tired of them. A wife you have to pay to get rid of.

My parents were too cheap to buy me the larger 1:43 scale Corgis. However, Corgi did have a line of Matchbox sized cars, and I did have several of those. The big Corgis were nice, but the little ones were cheaper in price and quality than Matchbox. They also had gift sets with the same car in both large and small size in the same package.

I haven't been to Motor Muster at the Henry Ford museum for a couple of years. But every year I went, there was a guy with a restored 1953 Ford garbage truck. He would operate it once an hour or so. Very interesting to see, but a garbage truck doesn't seem like the ideal vehicle for a Sunday drive.

While special edition models were nothing new, I am unaware of any company using Collectors Series badging before Lincoln in 1979. Buick "outplushed" Lincoln?? In whose opinion besides yours? Those vinyl interiors Buick had were just so plush and prestigious. So were the foam dashes that cracked on every car. Oldsmobile is gone, Pontiac is gone, Buick has a whole 3 models. How much longer before Buick is gone? Ford and Lincoln were the ones that didn't need bailout money. Seems like those tacky fwd GM's weren't such a good idea.

GM copied the Collectors Series from Lincoln in 1979. Those were special edition cars that sold for a premium over the regular Lincolns. They had special interiors, badging, gold plating, etc. They were quite successful and ended up selling much better than the 1980 Lincolns that replaced them. I remember a neighbor purchased a new 1985 Collectors Edition LeSabre. It had a special hood ornament, dash plaque, and portfolio. A far cry from the Lincolns extra plush interior, accessories, and options. However, while the LeSabre might not look that exciting in retrospect, I remember GM axing all the rwd drive models and replacing them with tacky little fwd boxes. I still think it was an incredibly stupid move to get rid of all the rwd models. GM ended up with everything looking like a Pontiac 6000. I think that is what started the downfall of GM. I still like the Lincoln Town Car commercial that capitalized on it where the valets cannot tell apart any of the GM cars or divisions, but the Town Car is unmistakeable.

I read some of the hype that this car was getting, and was interested to see it. I even defended Buick moving up in price as I thought this was something they should have done decades ago. I just saw the car at a BOPC show held at a Buick dealership. I have to say the 2010 LaCrosses they had there were a big disappointment. The hood looks like it belongs on an SUV. The trunk is so non-existent looking it might as well be a hatchback. There isn't anything about it that really looks Buick except for the grill which has been exaggerated to cartoon proportions. The old LaCrosse sitting next to it looked more Buick-like, and I thought those were grandpa-ish. The interior is nicer than the old LaCrosse, but I hate those stupid pods for the speedometer that stick up and look like they were made from styrafoam and glued on. If this is the car Buick is hanging their hopes on, I really don't see people stampeding to Buick dealerships for it. Why can't they build something with some character?

Nope, they worth what the buyer is willing to pay for them. Sellers ask ridiculous amounts all the time. That doesn't mean anyone will ever pay that.

In the Chicago area there are usually about 10 per night on Tues, Weds, Thurs, and even more on Friday. Mon, Sat and Sun don't have much, but there are car shows on any given Sat or Sun during the summer. You can pick which one you want to attend at any given time.

If they are this much of a problem to deal with already, what do you think they will be like if you have a claim?

Cadillac and some other manufacturers offered a commercial chassis. Not sure if Buick did. So even in 1929, a Buick might not have been cut up to make this. I see no reason to destroy a 1929 Buick to make one of these now. Even if the original no longer existed, and they wanted to recreate one. It appears there is not much of a Buick there except in front of the cowl. They could just use a junkyard wreck for those parts as the rest will have to be built from scratch anyway.

This is different as it would have been converted when it was new. That is not the same as taking an antique in excellent condition and rodding it.

Very true.

Thank you.