1912Staver

Hi John, it's not the flap I am talking about. The things I will eventually need are filler rings to use straight side tires on clincher rims. At one time { 100 years ago } they were reasonably common. Lots of Brass Era cars had clincher tires even in sizes as large as 36 x 4 { 28"} and 36 x 4 1/2 { 27" ]. As well Kelsey at least and probably Firestone as well made " universal style " rims that worked for either clincher or SS tires. The earliest ones had removable side rings both inner and outer. you just turned the rings around to suit the style of tires you were using. Later on the inside ring was made one piece with the band; in clincher form, and for a SS tire you used the filler ring on the inside and reversed the outer , removable side ring. Once the big clincher sized tires were discontinued in 1918 the filler bands became essential if you wanted to drive a car with " universal style rims ". Cadillac had them O.E.M. in about the 1915 era, but they were also sold as a service part to fit to any car with "" type A " Firestone rims. They are shown in my last 3 photo's. Nice Packard ! Greg

Hazards like this are a real concern. Not only is there a tendency for the engine to overspeed , but also the shock loading on the entire drive train is considerable once the rear wheels make firm contact with the road once again. Broken axles and drive components can be a catastrophe at racing speeds. Harry Grant and all the other racing drivers of this era were truly Men of Iron. The Alco he speaks of is a treasure ! I still find it hard to believe that as recently as the late 1980's it sold for something in the $70,000.00 range. I was just about to take a plunge on a house but the Alco sure was tempting. Greg

Necessity is the mother of invention. It sounds like you came up with a great solution to your problem. I tried a different download cable, sucess on the last batch of photo's. Notice the rim filler is layers of fabric reinforced rubber sheet. I have also seen a filler band made up of what looks like a fine weave rope. I doubt these " universal " style rims were made after the 1918 , war time tire size restriction. I believe all the large clincher { and many of the large size straight side } tires were discontinued at this time. The postwar Firestone tire production program did not include any of these large clincher sizes as far as I know. { 24" - 28 "}. Greg

Hi John, the tire was a size oversize { 37 x 5 }for the rim and on the inside there was quite a bit of space between the rim and the ground { laying flat }. I agree that getting it apart without any damage to the metal parts is the #1 concern. There are a fair number of hammer marks on the rim from decades ago. I hit the rim quite a bit to dislodge the tire but always through that stout block of wood you see in some of the photo's. I don't thing I added any additional hammer marks. But I will have to carefully work out a few of the worst old ones. Does anyone produce the rim " filler strips " these days ? The ones that allow you to use a straight side tire on a clincher rim. I have some photo's of the final stage but they are refusing to download from my camera. Greg

I think it is more along the lines of carburetor heat. Buicks and no doubt others had a provision to route exhaust gas through the carb body in cold weather. You would open the small butterfly leading to a passage in the carb body and regulate the amount of exhaust being diverted to the carb by closing in on the main butterfly. Greg

Ed's suggestion of employing the heat of the Sun did the trick. I flipped the tire a few times to heat both sides . Gave it a few wacks with the hammer and slowly it started to move. Eventually I was able remove the tire. Some damage to the tire but far less than I expected. The fllap tore into a couple of pieces and the red natural rubber tube is starting to decompose. But the rim and rings look usable. Greg

Funny story, that your comment reminded me of Matt. An Engineer I worked with told me the story of his summer between High School and Marine College. His father ; a Air Force officer , thought his son was enjoying life a bit too much. Lined him up with a Summer job through a good friend. The tire dept. of a large municipal bus co. Several bus tires a day to dis-mount , repair and re - mount each day , all by hand. My co- worker said it was the hardest work he ever encountered. Definitely kept his wild side in check! Greg

A few more photo's, sorry Ed , no video. And no blood ...yet. I did smack myself a good one in the knee however, when the rim tool slipped.

I took inspiration and advice from Ed's epic White rejuvenation thread and started to tackle the 27" , 3 piece rim / ancient tire dismount I have been avoiding for a long time. Cool and damp this morning but I decided to see if a pry bar would even move the side ring. Big surprise , it actually moved enough that the snap ring popped free for the first couple of inches. I started working around the rim with the pry bar and a rim tool, light smacks sideways on the rim tool in the sticky spots. After about 15 minutes I had the lock ring off , and shortly after the side ring. I then cleaned the part of the rim I could access. Some rust but not as bad as I expected. My Vaughn superbar was just the right shape. I then gave the rim a few swift smacks { with a wood block to minimize damage } to see if it will move off the tire at all. Not much { any ? } movement yet. I am going to heed Ed's advice and let it sit in the sun until later this afternoon. Very surprised I have made it this far without destroying the tire.

I suspect the tire is about 1920 at the newest. Notice it also has the metric size molded in . Not sure when that feature was dropped by the tire makers, but probably a long time ago. It would be nice to keep it as a wall hanger but I doubt it will survive. If we get a nice warm day this week I will give it a try. 2 weeks ago was about the peak of our summer temps. but I was too busy with other things to give it a shot. Greg

I will certainly give it a try ! I haven't quite got the sun power you have in Florida , I think I better leave it for at least 6 hours and see if that softens the rubber up at all. Your rims are the best looking ones I have ever seen. I even have a few smaller but about the same age { late teens } N.O.S. rims that due to sitting around for 100 years have worse plating than yours. What a time capsule ! Greg

The biggest problem is that the tires are literally rock hard. Squeezing the bead area together to allow the side ring to move inward enough to pry out the lock ring is for practical purposes impossible. I can't see anything working except cutting the tire into 3 pieces like I did with the Model AA wheel. Then the outer sidewall can be driven inwards enough to release the lock ring. Destroying a 100 year old tire is something I have regrets about, but I will photograph it before I ruin it. I consider those Firestones to be the best from the teens. Expensive and hard to find these days. All the really great Brass cars seem to use them. I have a couple but they are the slightly later " E " style. a 1 piece , split band style rim. They interchange directly with the 3 piece ones like yours. Greg

You are making me very envious Ed ! The one I have to deal with will take more than 27 Minutes guaranteed. Tire is truly rock hard, I suspect it is close to 100 years old. Any makers stamps on the inside of the rim ? I almost always find some although on the rims I usually end up with rust sometimes makes them un- readable. Greg

Actually I don't know what I was thinking on my last post. Once you remove the tires and tubes I expect the rim I.D. stampings will be as readable as the day they were new. I sometimes loose sight of the fact some people have very good cars to work on , unlike the rusty junk that usually follows me home. Greg

Thanks , I will watch your progress and hopefully learn a few things. I already knew about the formula, just hope to keep the blood part to a minimum. You are doing good at 2 a day, one is my limit for these big side ring , lock ring style wheels. Once you get them apart post some detailed photo's. I have a fair bit of reference material on earlier rims, and I can probably identify them. If not Layden Butler really knows them well, I haven't seen him stumped yet on early rims. P.S. , I have a very good application listing for the later teens, lots of similar low production cars listed . But not your White. All the White trucks are listed right up to 3 ton. Greg

Ed, I am curious about what make your rims are. Like I mentioned on my Model AA tire removal thread I will soon attempt to remove the extremely old tire from my 27 "[ 36 x 4 1/2 } Universal style { it can take a clincher or a straight side tire} Kelsey { I think } rim. I believe it fits on the same fellow band as a Firestone. Hopefully I can learn something from the technique you use on your White rims. Last time I had to deal with tires this old they broke up into chunks almost like lumps of coal. I would like to save the tire but I have a feeling it's going to be either the tire or the rim and I need to save the rim at all costs. Greg .

Here is one of my spare ; junk , Packard shafts. At least 4 different diameters plus 2 threaded areas , both different sizes. As a added bonus it is hollow and bushed to support a rod that is part of the governor. At least the drive gear comes off.

The gear is part of the shaft ! At least on my Packard pump the gear is a removable part. I am surprised White would have made it all in one piece. Is it possibly shrunk on to the shaft without the normal taper, key and nut ? Greg

Situations like this are often very frustrating. It will sit for years with a wildly unrealistic price and all the potential buyers will rite it off as a case of right parts / completely wrong seller. Then something happens to the sellers situation ; looses storage, legal problems , you name it, and it ends up as scrap .I have seen this a number of times over the years myself and I suspect several of you have as well. Generally serious trouble if a get rich quick artist ends up with old car parts. Greg

I think industry is gun shy of describing anything as " fiber " these days after the asbestos debacle. Greg

Extremely unusual, is the rim molded Bakelite or similar material ? It may be non automotive, farm tractor or even construction equipment.. Greg

Al, I have a feeling a Riker trans is going to be a extremely difficult thing to find. Very few Riker's surviving. You may want to consider using a trans from a similar size and approximate year shaft drive truck from a different make. They all do more or less the same function and it should be possible to make the adaption in such a way that should a Riker trans show up one day you could swap out the conversion trans for the correct one. Does the shifter attach right to the trans ? Greg

That shot could easily pass as a White 1 ton truck if you didn't know it was a car. Nothing underbuilt at White in those days. It's no wonder many cars in this class ended their days as tow trucks. Greg

Yikes ! That's one scary pump housing . Your oil pan set up sounds almost exactly the same as that on my Packard truck , also 1918. The Packard uses a dry multi disk clutch; but just as you describe' the big oil pan casting also encloses the bottom of the flywheel. The clutch housing ; it looks just like a transmission but it is actually only the clutch mechanism , is attached with studs projecting backwards from both the crankcase and the oil pan. { trans is a separate unit with a short drive shaft } I guess it's not that surprising that two major rivals in the truck market would have similar engineering and construction. The Packard's water pump is quite similar to yours as well except the main casting is iron and the water connections are separate bolt on pieces. Greg

That is a lot of money for flaps and tubes ! Is that typical for the larger sizes these days ? Hopefully top notch quality. Are the tires on the White still reasonably pliable ? I suppose they must be if you have already managed to remove two of them. Greg