NC1968Riviera Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 It always happens. You buy a new classic and the bugs start coming out of the woodwork! ARRRGGGHHH I replaced what I assumed to be a faulty alternator today after the GEN light came on in my new 68 Riv that I bought last Friday. I put my multi-meter to the battery and was satisfied the alt was not charging. "Easy fix" is say to myself. Little did I know... Today I installed the new alternator, new belts, new fuel filter, and new oil pressure switch and started the car. NO GEN light for about 5 seconds then it came on again. GRRRR I hooked up my multi-meter to the battery to see if the new alternator was actually charging. It appeared to be charging even as I turned on all power consuming systems to put a load on the battery/alternator. I rolled down all the windows, first the fronts rolled down in tandum, then the rears at the same time. I then rolled up the rears together then I could not roll up the fronts. All window had stopped responding too all window switches, both in the drivers door and the individual positions. My front windows are now in the down position. I am not a happy camper. The power seat still works so I am not sure if the 40A circuit breaker is to blame. Any thoughts? All window motors are new as of last year and worked well, except for the driver's door window which was VERY slow to go either up or down. I plan on pulling off the door panel and greasing the window tracks to see if this fixes this issue. It appears I may have to order the 40A CB as the larger chain parts stores don't carry them. I will try some of the mom/pop stores tomorrow. All other systems seem to be working correctly, with the exception of the GEN light still staying on. I will deal with that in another topic. I called the guy I bought it from to see if he ever had this issue. He said he had not, but the owner he had bought the car from had told him that there was once trouble with the window when operating two windows simultaneously. (HMMM, sounds familiar. Wish I had known this when I bought the car, I would not have operated them in tandem!) I called that previous owner and left a message asking them to call me back so I can learn what they knew about this window problem. I am open to any and all suggestions on what to do if the windows don't work after getting a new 40A circuit breaker. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZRIV Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Mike, If you haven't already, order a chassis service manual ASAP. Its an excellent resource. Did you have your alternator rebuilt by a competent shop or buy an off the shelf unit from big box auto parts? I always defer to having one rebuilt vs off shelf as it will probably be Chinese made. Just a note for future reference you NEVER want to give up an original part as a core in exchange for an aftermarket part assuming the original is rebuildable. Is the gen light on when the ignition is off, or on? You might backup a little and have the alternator checked at a shop. Could be a regulator problem, or someone fooled with the wiring which complicates troubleshooting. Electrical problems are difficult to troubleshoot via forum. Too many variables. As far as the windows, if 68 is like 67 (I don't have a 68 manual) there is a power window relay up under the dash. As soon as key is turned to ACC or ON, you can hear it click if its working. This powers up the window circuitry. In 67 this relay is powered through the radio fuse and before that comes from the ignition switch. So see if your radio works. My guess is you lost power to this relay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NC1968Riviera Posted June 5, 2017 Author Share Posted June 5, 2017 (edited) Jason, Thanks for the advice. As it was, the old alt was an aftermarket one also. I looked through all of the past work receipts I received when I bought the car and there was no receipt for an alternator. So I have no idea how old it was. I created a separate topic for the alternator issues: I do have a chassis manual for the 68 Buicks. Unfortunately there isn't much to troubleshoot window issues. I need to get a Fisher body manual for this car. The one I have for my Caprice has been a lifesaver for working on that car! Thanks for the recommendations. I will check the radio tomorrow to see if it works or not. Edited June 5, 2017 by NCRiviera (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NC1968Riviera Posted June 5, 2017 Author Share Posted June 5, 2017 1 hour ago, JZRIV said: relay is powered through the radio fuse My 68 chassis manual says the radio fuse feeds the radio, antenna, window relay and transmission solenoid. My wiring diagrams don't seem to show the window relay in either the power window wiring or the body wiring schematics. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68RIVGS Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 (edited) . . . are we having fun yet Mike? The PW Relay is buried, and mounted near the centre of the dash area - when you turn the ign. switch OFF from ACC, or ON, you should hear an audible 'click' when the relay works.The ignition key buzzer (...if working), will also sound if the key is left in the ignition. On page 120-117 - Power Window Wiring Diagram, the PW relay is referred to as an 'Ignition Relay' on the left side of the diagram. The 40 AMP circuit breaker on the fuse panel is for the power accessories, windows and seat as they draw a lot of current to function. Just use an ohm meter to see if it is working - it's just a heavy duty fuse. I have never operated the windows in tandem, just one at a time, but I might just try it - cleaning, adjusting and lubing tracks, and pivot points will certainly improve the operation of the power windows, but that job should go on a separate work order !! Edited June 5, 2017 by 68RIVGS (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NC1968Riviera Posted June 5, 2017 Author Share Posted June 5, 2017 2 hours ago, 68RIVGS said: when you turn the ign. switch OFF from ACC, or ON, you should hear an audible 'click' when the relay works Randy correct? I don't hear any click when turning the ignition switch to acc or on so I am assuming mine is toast. I just ordered a new one from Lectric Limited. I just pulled the ashtray and radio out but I can't spot the PW relay. It's either hidden behind HVAC plumbing or behind the instrument cluster somewhere? If anyone can pinpoint its location I would appreciate it. The location is not given in the chassis manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZRIV Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 (edited) Your radio worked right? I wouldn't assume relay is bad until you check for certain there is power going to it and its not energizing. In 67 they were up high on the firewall to right of center. If in same area might have to remove dash pad. Edited June 5, 2017 by JZRIV (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NC1968Riviera Posted June 5, 2017 Author Share Posted June 5, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, JZRIV said: Your radio worked right? I wouldn't assume relay is bad until you check for certain there is power going to it and its not energizing. Yes the radio does work as does the power antenna. I have to assume that the relay is bad, correct? I got excited when I thought I found the relay behind the clock. Wrong! It was the key buzzer, ? I decided to look on my 69 Fisher Body Service manual. Here is what it says: Sooo I guess the instrument cluster comes out next? I might as well buy all of the new incandescent and LED bulbs I need to upgrade the interior and dash lights. Edited June 5, 2017 by NCRiviera (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZRIV Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, NCRiviera said: Yes the radio does work as does the power antenna. I have to assume that the relay is bad, correct? Unless there is a bad connection at the relay. But it does seem to be looking like that may be problem. 69 might be the same as 68 but don't be shocked if its not. Many differences within a generation. Edited June 5, 2017 by JZRIV (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NC1968Riviera Posted June 5, 2017 Author Share Posted June 5, 2017 4 minutes ago, JZRIV said: 69 might be the same as 68 but don't be shocked if its not. Would you recommend removing the dash pad before removing the instrument cluster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 6 minutes ago, JZRIV said: Unless there is a bad connection at the relay. But it does seem to be looking like that may be problem. 69 might be the same as 68 but don't be shocked if its not. Many differences within a generation. The only thing I've found that's consistent within one generation is minute changes. ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68RIVGS Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 1 hour ago, NCRiviera said: Would you recommend removing the dash pad before removing the instrument cluster? The dash pad is much easier to remove, and will give you access to the PW relay but you will need to remove the speaker grill - ashtray, radio and centre dash vent bit 'n pieces prior to dash pad removal. You will also have to remove the glove box liner to gain access to some of the dash pad retainers - then there are 3 spring type pins that secure the dash pad in place, one on ach side of the cluster and one on the right side of the dash. Don't forget to remove the screws at the top of the plastic instrument cluster bezel before you pull the dash pad back from the dash. If you have an AC or none-AC equipped car there is little to no access from the lower portion of the dash without removing most of the cloth ducting. Everything is old, brittle and well aged so be very gentle when removing all the bits 'n pieces. Removing the plastic instrument cluster bezel is a P.I.T.A. task - and is best avoided unless your doing a concours restoration. I removed mine once, and will never attempt it again if it can be avoided ! . . . hope this helps. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68RIVGS Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, NCRiviera said: Randy correct? I don't hear any click when turning the ignition switch to acc or on so I am assuming mine is toast. I just ordered a new one from Lectric Limited. I just pulled the ashtray and radio out but I can't spot the PW relay. It's either hidden behind HVAC plumbing or behind the instrument cluster somewhere? If anyone can pinpoint its location I would appreciate it. The location is not given in the chassis manual. For reasons unknown, the relay 'click' is much more audible when the switch gets turned OFF either position - not ON ! There is a slight slight audible click when the ignition switch is turned ON and both lights (...GEN, and OIL) are in full brilliance, but it's much louder when the switch is turned OFF. It comes from the centre area of the dash, just behind the radio where the PW relay is located. . . . at least that is how my '68 works Mike. NEVER assume anything when it comes to these cars ! LOL Edited June 5, 2017 by 68RIVGS (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NC1968Riviera Posted June 6, 2017 Author Share Posted June 6, 2017 I did remove the glove box liner, ash tray, and the radio. I also removed the clock as I plan on putting a quartz movement in it. Speaking of the instrument console, can the all of the light bulbs be replaced in it without removing the console? it appears two above the left side of the speedo and lower bulbs on the left side are out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68RIVGS Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 Some are difficult to replace and some can be reached easily. Removing the dash pad will help but it's still pretty tight back there, and have lots of bandages available. There are some pretty sharp metal edges back there ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NC1968Riviera Posted June 7, 2017 Author Share Posted June 7, 2017 I was able to get the door windows up by pulling up the driver door master switch and using my jumper cables and a paperclip to apply direct current to the hot lead of the window switch. It was kind of funny because I used a partially unraveled paperclip held in the jaws of the jumper cable as my contact. I actually did a test run before completely hooking up the jumper cables to the battery and the ground to the door to make sure I had enough length and I would not touch anything else. When I attached the jumper cables to the battery then touched the big red wire in the switch, I pressed the passenger door toggle switch and, hooray, the window went up! I did the same with the drivers door and I also made sure the back windows were up all the way. My new PW relay arrived today. Now that I have the windows up I am not in as big a hurry to find and replace the relay. I will probably pull the dash pad off this weekend and continue my search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68RIVGS Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 (edited) Glad you were able to close them by hot-wiring the PW switch Mike ! Might also be a good idea to double check the door wiring harness in the rubber sleeve between the front of the door and the door pillar. Age, and constant flexing in the same spot over the years, with the opening and closing of the doors (...in particular the driver's door), will cause some of the wires in the harness to break. If the large red +12V DC wire is broken your master switch will not raise, or lower the windows ? Edited June 7, 2017 by 68RIVGS (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NC1968Riviera Posted June 7, 2017 Author Share Posted June 7, 2017 3 minutes ago, 68RIVGS said: If the large red +12V DC wire is broken your master switch will not raise, or lower the windows Good to know, thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 2 hours ago, 68RIVGS said: Glad you were able to close them by hot-wiring the PW switch Mike ! Might also be a good idea to double check the door wiring harness in the rubber sleeve between the front of the door and the door pillar. Age, and constant flexing in the same spot over the years, with the opening and closing of the doors (...in particular the driver's door), will cause some of the wires in the harness to break. If the large red +12V DC wire is broken your master switch will not raise, or lower the windows ? Been there done that. The wires get old a brittle and the constant bending will cause them to break. I didn't splice mine, I ran a new wire from point A to point B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NC1968Riviera Posted June 7, 2017 Author Share Posted June 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, RivNut said: I ran a new wire from point A to point B. Can you explain in a little detail what "point A to point B" means? I might want to copy what you did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 From end to end, just don't splice a short piece of new wire into an old wire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NC1968Riviera Posted June 10, 2017 Author Share Posted June 10, 2017 After removing the dash pad and speaker I found the power window relay behind the speaker. I plugged in the new relay, hooked up the battery, turned on the ignition, and NADA! No reaction from the windows! Now I knew that I had a bigger problem. I have been advised to see if there were any broken wires in the door harness. I had noticed that the door harness boot had electrical tape wrapped around it. I unwrapped the tape and found a tap on the main power feed wire. I traced it back inside the car and found an online fuze holder with a blown fuze! Arrrgghhh, after tearing the whole dash apart looking for that relay. I plugged in a 20 amp fuze and my windows work again. I will not operate two at a time in the future.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWB Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, NCRiviera said: After removing the dash pad and speaker I found the power window relay behind the speaker. I plugged in the new relay, hooked up the battery, turned on the ignition, and NADA! No reaction from the windows! Now I knew that I had a bigger problem. I have been advised to see if there were any broken wires in the door harness. I had noticed that the door harness boot had electrical tape wrapped around it. I unwrapped the tape and found a tap on the main power feed I traced it back inside the car and found an online fuze holder with a blown fuze! Arrrgghhh, after tearing the whole dash apart looking for that relay. I plugged in a 20 amp fuze and my windows work again. I will not operate two at a time in the future.. Tisk tisk tisk. The restorer didn't like wiring the right way. So sorry you had such troubles. I found you a used harness sleeve. Looks like a '68 fit as well. I imagine - pretty darn rare: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Factory-Original-67-Cadillac-Deville-DOOR-JAM-JAMB-WIRE-HARNESS-COVER-LOOM-/142398794301?hash=item2127a12a3d:g:A5MAAOSwjDZYZUvM&vxp=mtr Like Mr. Ed stated A to B will need to be done. Winter project? Edited June 10, 2017 by PWB (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68RIVGS Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 Pretty amazing what you will find in these old molested Rivieras that ain't factory Mike. On the upside you now know how your windows are wired and they will work one at a time ! Keep that old PW relay as a spare, it was probably working OK, before that added fuse blew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 Did the guy who installed the in-fuse completely bypass a circuit breaker? If so, put the circuit breaker back in and you can operate more than one window at a time. At least a circuit breaker will reset after a while. 20 amps isn't much for a power window anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 Back in the 1980's we were bringing a lot of collectible cars up from North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Kentucky. We saw evidence of a guy we called Jimmy Joe Calhoun's work on a lot of cars. He traveled the south doing electrical work on old cars. He was a tall guy, about 6' 3" and always wore a big belt buckle with steer horns when he leaned over the front fenders. His weapon of choice was side cutters. He made a modified lineman's splice and used gooey black tape. It sounds like you may have run into one of his jobs. I saved one of his jobs and had the piece of wire below hanging on a peg hook for over 20 years now. This wire was removed from a Griffith bodied MG powered vintage race car that had never completed a race. It ran from a dash mounted switch to the electric fuel pump. Ummmm, I replaced it with a single wire with a terminal at each end. That Jimmy Joe got around a lot. He might have done your windows. Bernie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NC1968Riviera Posted June 12, 2017 Author Share Posted June 12, 2017 11 hours ago, 60FlatTop said: That Jimmy Joe got around a lot. He might have done your windows. You might be right... :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.thumb.jpg.1426cd2c408212d38e6aae46d63f585f.jpg)
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now