Where to get judged

[AJFord54]

Opps - what started as a nice thread has gone toxic. Suggest we give it a final rest. All in favor?

[62 driver]

So after reading the back and fourths. I now want to know who took First place to began with? Did the call him and take it away or let him keep it and now there's two First place winner! I am glad the error was corrected! Dans car was outstanding!!!

[AJFord54]

Under AACA rules, there are (can be) more than one First Junior winners. If you are above the minimum points (365 out of 400 I believe), all receive that award - unless someone is above that number, and then you must be within 10 points of that car. ie: if someone is at 386, the cars to also receive a First Junior must be at 376 or above. Otherwise, they drop to a Second Junior.

I suspect that judges corrected his score and awarded him a First Junior upon review, sort of like "instant replay", which is allowed, but I suspect unusual.

[danleblanc]

Opps - what started as a nice thread has gone toxic. Suggest we give it a final rest. All in favor?

I'm very much in favour, but with one parting thought.

I'm not bashing the club at all. I think the AACA is a good group of people with good intentions. I'd be saying the same things whether I placed or not. These are observations as a newcomer to the club who plans on being around for awhile who will one day judge and participate at a higher level. I'm trying to understand the workings as a participant first.

At the end of the day, I think the judging system is fine. There are judging schools that ensure all judges are equipped with the same toolbox and well defined judging criteria. Given these two factors, a car should be able be judged on its own merits and place based on the overall presentation of the vehicle itself and that alone, not dependent on who is parked next to you. Theoretically, one should be able to hermetically seal a car between events, unveil it with the same piece of dust on the same spot and place the same at the next show. The ability to say I'm going to take my car to Buffalo so I can get a senior badge because it's a less competitive show, for example, somewhat seems like cheating in my eyes because the award is the award, the judging criteria are exactly that, the judging rules are the same, so the capability to show at any event and place consistently is there. One should not have to or be able to play the system to get a particular award. Somewhat defeats the purpose of a national award based on strict criteria doesn't it?

[AJFord54]

I'm very much in favour, but with one parting thought.

I'm not bashing the club at all. I think the AACA is a good group of people with good intentions. I'd be saying the same things whether I placed or not. These are observations as a newcomer to the club who plans on being around for awhile who will one day judge and participate at a higher level. I'm trying to understand the workings as a participant first.

At the end of the day, I think the judging system is fine. There are judging schools that ensure all judges are equipped with the same toolbox and well defined judging criteria. Given these two factors, a car should be able be judged on its own merits and place based on the overall presentation of the vehicle itself and that alone, not dependent on who is parked next to you. Theoretically, one should be able to hermetically seal a car between events, unveil it with the same piece of dust on the same spot and place the same at the next show. The ability to say I'm going to take my car to Buffalo so I can get a senior badge because it's a less competitive show, for example, somewhat seems like cheating in my eyes because the award is the award, the judging criteria are exactly that, the judging rules are the same, so the capability to show at any event and place consistently is there. One should not have to or be able to play the system to get a particular award. Somewhat defeats the purpose of a national award based on strict criteria doesn't it?

Ideally, the only difference between being judged at the Hershey meet and a smaller one is the fact that there is less chance of a 397 point car showing up. Thus, the 10 point rule kicks in and you have now gone from 365 points required to 387. (or in the case of a Senior award, the 375 points has moved up to the 387 number).

I have never understood the purpose of the 10 point rule, as it does seem to go against the concept of every car standing on its own and does actually pit them against another car. However, it is a rule that was developed at some point and it kind of makes it more interesting. Someone out there may want to chime in as to why the 10 point rule exists, but as they say - "it is what it is" and we work with it and polish and double check just a bit more to save points. And frankly, I find the higher up the ladder we go, it gets more fun, as you start to really critique your car, look for impending rust in small areas, make a list of the weakest parts and improve on them, etc.

[MCHinson]

I have often thought that the 10 point rule should be abolished. I was not around when the system was designed but one idea that I have heard to explain the reason for the 10 point rule is as follows:

If there were no 10 point rule and 375 points will always win you a Senior award, there is less incentive to try to maintain or restore a car as well as possible. "I only need 375 points, so I am not going to go to the trouble to fix (insert anything here)."

Every car is only judged against the score sheet but it is a competition, i.e., the best car wins each class. The 10 point rule just gives a little leeway for the potential human error that is involved with using human beings as judges. The 10 point rule allows for multiple winners when the judging is close enough that human error could have played a part in deciding which car was the best.

Hershey is often said to be the hardest meet to win an award at because it is usually the largest meet. With more cars there is more potential for a class to have a 400 point car in a class, so the 10 point rule is more likely to influence who wins a class at Hershey.

Sometimes the 10 point rule is a pain, but it does insure that everybody has incentive to work on the car and strive for the best score that they can obtain.

[llskis]

I have often thought that the 10 point rule should be abolished. I was not around when the system was designed but one idea that I have heard to explain the reason for the 10 point rule is as follows:

If there were no 10 point rule and 375 points will always win you a Senior award, there is less incentive to try to maintain or restore a car as well as possible. "I only need 375 points, so I am not going to go to the trouble to fix (insert anything here)."

MCHinson: I totally agree with your thinking to abolish the 10 pt. rule; just don't make sense. AFA the one who designed the system they did not take any input

from ALL other organizations. I know of no org. that has that rule. There is no rational to the thinking of way it was done.IMHO Larry

Edited October 31, 2013 by llskis (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

I think you misunderstood my complete post in context. I understand that the 10 point rule is not universally appreciated. As I attempted to show above, I have given it a lot of thought over the years and have sometimes seen it in a negative light and sometimes in a positive light.

It serves its purpose of making the competition fierce. Competition is not always fun. You win some, you lose some and some are rained out.

The best car on the field in its class wins. While there can be multiple "ties" for first place, everybody does not always "win". Sometimes people don't get the award that they are seeking. I have experienced the agony of not receiving an award that I thought my car deserved and it was not fun. I improved the car and took it back to the next Grand National and won the Repeat Grand National Senior Award that I was seeking.

I have had a lot of different types of experiences in AACA. I have shown cars in Class Judging, I have a car certified in HPOF. I have a DPC car. I judge chapter, region, and national meets. I have shown cars in chapter, region, and national meets. I have taken chapter, region, and national tours. There are lots of opportunities for fun. Participate in what you enjoy. If you don't enjoy a particular facet of the hobby, find the part that you enjoy and do it.

[AJFord54]

I just wanted to clarify a point by asking a question: I have always thought it to be that, unlike a "car show" where someone gets "First Place", the "First Junior" is not about one car being "the winner". The concept is that there are mulitple "First Junior" winners and thus no "First Place" in AACA. As an example, if a car attains 400 points, he is not "First Place" - others can still win their "First Junior" as well, by being within 10 points of that car.

As I recall, at the awards ceremony, it is always announced something to the effect: "In class 32B, we have a tie and have multiple "First Junior" awards". Thus, there is no one car deemed better than the others.

Is this a correct analysis?

As a final point: I believe the concept that attending a smaller meet will provide less competition and therefore make it easier to attain a First Junior or a Senior has its faults. If enough people think that way, some of the finest cars will attend that smaller meet and the judging will be just as difficult. It should come out the same in the wash.

Edited October 31, 2013 by AJFord54 (see edit history)

[danleblanc]

I just wanted to clarify a point by asking a question: I have always thought it to be that, unlike a "car show" where someone gets "First Place", the "First Junior" is not about one car being "the winner". The concept is that there are mulitple "First Junior" winners and thus no "First Place" in AACA. As an example, if a car attains 400 points, he is not "First Place" - others can still win their "First Junior" as well, by being within 10 points of that car.

As I recall, at the awards ceremony, it is always announced something to the effect: "In class 32B, we have a tie and have multiple "First Junior" awards". Thus, there is no one car deemed better than the others.

Is this a correct analysis?

As a final point: I believe the concept that attending a smaller meet will provide less competition and therefore make it easier to attain a First Junior or a Senior has its faults. If enough people think that way, some of the finest cars will attend that smaller meet and the judging will be just as difficult. It should come out the same in the wash.

I couldn't have said it better myself. My take on a junior badge or a senior badge is that a judge has reviewed a particular vehicle and it has achieved a certain grade to obtain a designation. You have to achieve a certain designation to progress to the next level. It's like a multi level video game. You have to complete level 1 in Super Mario Brothers to get to level 2, etc. So, why then, does it matter what is parked next to you if you're being evaluated for the designation and there can be multiple designations given out per level?

[danleblanc]

I don't want anyone taking this as club bashing or anything like that. I'm new and am trying to understand the process and reasoning, indicate observations as a newcomer, and perhaps try and help mould the future of the club through healthy conversation.

After all, I'm 35 and am going to be around for awhile yet.

[ex98thdrill]

I don't want anyone taking this as club bashing or anything like that. I'm new and am trying to understand the process and reasoning, indicate observations as a newcomer, and perhaps try and help mould the future of the club through healthy conversation.

After all, I'm 35 and am going to be around for awhile yet.

If you read what I've said multiple times, if you get involved, you'll understand it. If you don't get involved, you'll probably never understand it.

I'm not saying that I am in favor of the 10 point rule either. We lost a First Grand National in Buffalo with our '40 Plymouth Woodie, did nothing to it, and over the next two years walked all the way to a Senior Grand National.

The bottom line is if you want change, it won't happen by itself, you'll have to get in and do something about it. Ten years ago the rules were written to where the awards on a vehicle were lost if the vehicle changes ownership. I pressed the argument that if my father and I pool our money together to build the car and one of us dies, the vehicle shouldn't be punished because the person who had the vehicle registered under dies. AACA changed that, but talking about it on the Forum isn't what got it changed.

I appreciate the HPOF class, but I don't feel that if the HPOF car is good enough that it should be excluded from the ability to win awards if the car is that good. We have an '87 Mustang that is in the same boat as your Cadillac, so I know what you're talking about.

I have been an AACA judge for 10 years and never at any time have I ever taken, nor have I seen anyone else deduct points from a car because of overrestoration. Usually the ones who yell the loudest about overrestoration are the ones who don't have a restored car.

Are these cars overrestored?? Yes they are, but understand that a lot of the materials that are in use today are better than what the factory used back in the day.

AACA is not a marque club, so they don't have all the resources on every vehicle that was ever built that comes onto the show field. AACA does not have the time, they don't have the resources, and if you don't have the resources for every vehicle, you're not being fair. You can't hold a Chevrolet right to the letter as to how it left the factory if you don't have the same reference material on a Moon or a Durant.

If you follow my advice and start judging, you're going to find that the chances of you judging in an area that your familiar with doesn't always happen. Should you decide to start judging, the only thing that I can say is "judge the vehicles and treat the owners of these vehicles the way you'd want to be treated if you were in their shoes."

[Restorer32]

A simple solution would be to require 400 points for a First. Plus AACA would save a fortune on trophies.

[danleblanc]

You say that those who cry the loudest are those who don't have a restored car. Restored cars are nice, yes. I could've bought a restored 61 Fleetwood and saved myself $6-7000. There are lots of them out there. What you don't see are the low mileage unrestored cars that can pull off a first junior like my Fleetwood.

There are those of us who seek cars of this magnitude. I am one of those people

I have allocated a budget of 1000/mi per year to enjoy this car. With very careful maintenance it's condition will be stabilized (climate controlled storage) and it will be 80 years old with 50k miles on it. How many people can say that?

Edited October 31, 2013 by danleblanc (see edit history)

[R W Burgess]

A simple solution would be to require 400 points for a First. Plus AACA would save a fortune on trophies.

That may be true Jeff, but we would have less winners.

Personally I think the average National Meet particapant appreciates the added chance of getting a first junior because of multible winners. I'm sure that was considered when the 10 point rule began many years ago. I might even be able to get an "old Timer" (who you calling old) to add some history here.

I might add that our hobby as a whole needs all of the particapation that it can get, especially with young people. The more winners the better, I always say. When you get up to the Senior catagory, that's when things really get serious. By then you are looking ahead to a possible Grand National.

The really neat thing about this hobby, to me anyway, is that there is something for everyone.

1. If your vehicle wins a First Junior, you can proudly show your local car guys a trophy that was not easily won.

2. If you like judging, that can be your only interest in this club.

3. If you like tours, we have tours for everyone, across the country. (Those tour banners are really cool to show your neighbors).

4. If you like publications, guess what you can learn and promote the hobby with your talents.

So, what's not to like? As Pat said more than once, you need to get involved to understand what we do. You also need to get active to make changes in the hobby. Discussing your opinions on this web site is good, but nothing ever happens with policy change because of what is said here.

Get active in the AACA guys, join us in Philly to meet like minded members where you can share experiences at a nice laid back weekend. I did and I've never looked back!

Wayne

Edited October 31, 2013 by R W Burgess
I never said that I could spell..... (see edit history)

[danleblanc]

I would very much like to attend a judging seminar sometime and perhaps try judging.

[danleblanc]

As a post script I'll proudly display my first junior.

[Belvedere]

And there you have it, Dan. You say you want to enjoy this car. All this discussion tends to take the FUN out of it. Proudly display the 1st Junior. Time will tell if your Caddy can achieve Senior status. Hopefully it will. At the next AACA meet you may be the only car in your class going for Senior and the 10 point rule will not apply. You know your original car scored the minimum of 365 for the Junior. Will the judging team that day determine you achieve at least the 375 needed? Only time will tell. You may find yourself climbing all the way to Grand National Senior competition. I know of some low mileage UNRESTORED cars in my area with REPEAT Senior Grand Nationals. The car itself is the BEST trophy, now sit back and ENJOY THE RIDE!

[llskis]

From ex98thdrill:

I have been an AACA judge for 10 years and never at any time have I ever taken, nor have I seen anyone else deduct points from a car because of overrestoration. Usually the ones who yell the loudest about overrestoration are the ones who don't have a restored car.

Are these cars overrestored?? Yes they are, but understand that a lot of the materials that are in use today are better than what the factory used back in the day.

XXXX But one must remember that an overrestored car may be an incorrectly overrestored car. (See my pictures on the first page) That's where I would like

to see some points taken off. An example of this would be like a overrestored car in my class at the G/N in Moline. The car was perfect but his hood hinges

where painted black and not gray phosphate like they where supposed to be. I know the fellow and of course no points where take off. Larry

P.S. It not that I worried about his score its the fact as long as we got the 5 or 10 point rule it effects the lower point car as the

"spread" becomes unjustifiable bigger. Larry

Edited October 31, 2013 by llskis (see edit history)

[ex98thdrill]

But one must remember that an overrestored car may be an incorrectly overrestored car. (See my pictures on the first page) That's where I would like to see some points taken off. An example of this would be like a overrestored car in my class at the G/N in Moline. The car was perfect but his hood hinges where painted black and not gray phosphate like they where supposed to be. I know the fellow and of course no points where take off. Larry

P.S. It not that I worried about his score its the fact as long as we got the 5 or 10 point rule it effects the lower point car as the

"spread" becomes unjustifiable bigger. Larry

Larry, if you got the award that you came for, why do you care??

As I've said many times in this thread already, a lot of materials that were used back in the day aren't available today, so you'll never get these cars exact. If you restored one, you'd know that, but you haven't restored one, you're not involved, and you're complaining about the owners who have done both.

Edited October 31, 2013 by ex98thdrill (see edit history)

[llskis]

Larry, if you got the award that you came for, why do you care??

Thanks for the response. No I did not get the award that I came for; missed it by 2-3 points due to the 5 point rule. (G/N)

The point I am trying to make is: If judges don't deduct points off of a incorrect overrestored cars then the point spread becomes

to much to overcome. I'm trying to make a point that a 400 point car should have been a 397 point car if judged properly.Larry

On the car I brought up in above thread the owner could have easily "Gray Phosphated" the hinges instead of electing to paint

them black.

Edited October 31, 2013 by llskis (see edit history)

[Guest billybird]

As a post script I'll proudly display my first junior.

As well you should! I'm going to offer a somewhat radical idea. I believe vehicles that qualify should be allowed to show in more than one division. For instance danleblanc's Caddy obviously could qualify for HPOF as well as class judging. What would be wrong with that? Also, a Jr. up vehicle could certainly qualify for DPC. Comments?

[R W Burgess]

............... I believe vehicles that qualify should be allowed to show in more than one division. For instance danleblanc's Caddy obviously could qualify for HPOF as well as class judging. What would be wrong with that? Also, a Jr. up vehicle could certainly qualify for DPC. Comments?

Would you have these vehicles "traveling" from one class to the other? Spectator safety?(Heck, I bump into people just trying to take pictures) Vehicles moved before the judging is completed? Think about Hershey on a good year, 1500 plus vehicles moving around?

[ex98thdrill]

If judges don't deduct points off of a incorrect overrestored cars then the point spread becomes too much to overcome.

Larry, judges don't deduct for overrestored because overrestored is acceptable according to AACA rules. Again, that's when you take that to the Judging Committee and plead your case. Overrestored won't give you additional points, but it won't hurt you either. But they also won't take points if your cotter pins aren't bent the exact way, you won't lose points because of the key blank that you have in the switch, and you also won't lose points if you have a late 60's GM car that doesn't have T3 headlight bulbs.

If you took out the point spread out of the rulebook, the whole argument goes away.

Think about this, based on the current rules you could go to Hershey, pull a score of 389 points and get a Second Junior because someone rolled in with a 400 point car. You could take that exact same car to a meet in Iowa and score a 365 and get a First Junior because in Iowa, you're the only car in class, where at Hershey there's 15 cars in your class.

If you want to argue the point with the Judging Committee to eliminate the point spread, I won't argue with you, and if you want to start a petition, I'll sign it, and I'm sure most car owners would sign it as well. We've fallen victim to "a ringer" (slang term many of us car owners use to refer to a car that pulls high points), and we've been a ringer, so I can feel your pain.

Instead of someone complaining about the overrestored cars, the elimination of the point spread would end this whole debate. If the HPOF cars could go for points without having to be within a certain point spread of the restored cars, that would also end this whole debate.

I think anyone who restored a car can tell you that if you take a car apart, paint it one piece at a time and put the car back together, it will be overrestored.

In my case, I'd love to put the '87 Mustang in class judging, but with the point spread, I know it'll never cut it. I hate the thought of putting the car in HPOF, but with the current rules, if I want to bring it out, I don't have many options. Our '49 LaFrance ladder truck would never make it in class judging, but it's a good HPOF vehicle.

[MCHinson]

I am trying not to debate this any more than necessary because it is pointless to argue about the judging rules on the forum.

As I see it, an owner has three options:

1. Understand what the rule are and compete;

2. Contact the VP of Class Judging and lobby to have the rules changed; or

3. Choose not to compete.

This is a hobby. Have fun!

[Guest billybird]

Would you have these vehicles "traveling" from one class to the other? Spectator safety?(Heck, I bump into people just trying to take pictures) Vehicles moved before the judging is completed? Think about Hershey on a good year, 1500 plus vehicles moving around?

No,no Wayne. That would have to be determined before the meet { which division you would show in at that meet } No moving around during the meet.

[llskis]

I am trying not to debate this any more than necessary because it is pointless to argue about the judging rules on the forum.

As I see it, an owner has three options:

1. Understand what the rule are and compete;

2. Contact the VP of Class Judging and lobby to have the rules changed; or

3. Choose not to compete.

This is a hobby. Have fun!

MC: Thanks for your response and your 3 points are well taken. Don't agree with your top statement though. We are not arguing; we are just voicing

are opinions. It too bad the judging committee doesn't "tune in" to the forum for some input. AFA your three points the first two are not an option for

me with the vehicle I brought to the G/N as the rules are written now. I will choose option #3. I do have other vehicles that I will compete in with other

classes that do not have so many "overrestored cars". So I will be "class jumping" to particpate. Yes this is a hobby but one wants to be in a fair plane

to begain with and with the 5 pt. rule at the G/N the fun is taken out of it. IMHO Larry

P.S. I have nothing against "overrestored" cars but when they are not properly judged is my concern. (As examples given with my previous threads)

[R W Burgess]

I deleted my post. I think we have done all we can to help this fellow out....Case Closed!

Edited November 1, 2013 by R W Burgess (see edit history)