Tire time 40 Special

[Guest edalfa]

Happy Hew Year!

The tires on my 40 Special are about 30 years old and checking. I'm going to have to replace them and I'm leaning towards the Coker Wide White radials (6.50R16) Does anyone have experience with these? Right now the tires are blackwall, bias ply. But I've got to guess that the WWW would really dress it up. Besides, blackwalls were fine for the Model A that I had but this is a Buick, for goodness sake!

Ed

[Guest Straight eight]

There is controversy over radial vs. bias ply tires. Please search the site for the pros and cons before you spend money that could be better spent on the correct tire for your beautiful car!! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

[Guest JT]

Ed, I guess the whitewalls will dress your car up but I think your car looks great with blackwalls (IMHO) <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Guest ewing]

I'm going to agree... the car looks great with blackwalls. Heck every restoration has www's. But I'd guess most cars of the day had bw's.

My 38 will be due for new tires soon, and I'm thinking of going back to bw's.

I wonder if others are starting to think about going back to bw's for their next set of tires?

We have a guy in our local club with a beautiful restored 29 Pachard roadster and with 6 big bw tires it looks just great and very period correct. A car restored to be driven, and to take you back to its appearance as it probably first prowled around.

John

[Mark Shaw]

Blackwalls are much easier to care for and do not yellow with age.

I agree with previous posts that your car looks good with BW tires and wouldn't be improved with WW tires.

Check out

http://www.universaltire.com/cart.php?target=category&category_id=286

[Fred Rawling]

My dad never bought white walls because of the cost. Every car that I remember him owing from a 1936 Ford up to the 55 Chevy, had black walls.

[Guest edalfa]

I hadn't thought about the yellowing. Food for thought. I was thinking whitewalls to break up the expanse of black.

Ed

[jeff]

Black walls vs. white walls?? Get what you like, that's the most important thing.

I do agree that in the day, probably no more than one car in ten had white walls. Even less on pickups and more utilitarian cars. Now, at a show, the ratio is probably reversed - only one in ten have blackwalls!

But again - just please yourself, get what you like.

Jeff

(38 Special, black - with blackwalls)

[bhclark]

Mine is a basic model 4041 Buick Special. I think the Blackwalls are a perfect solution. It should also set the car off from the others.

As a side note, if you wanted to break it up a bit, but not go 100% period correct, you could always add some pizzazz by painting or powder coating the wheels an accent color other than black?

[TG57Roadmaster]

If you decide to go with blackwalls, there a two correct factory colors for Carlsbad Black bodies. The Buick Master Parts Book lists these wheel colors:

Carlsbad Black (DULUX # 94-20300) with Silver Stripe (DULUX # 289-4202)

(Opt.) Dante Red (DULUX # 82-20383) with Silver Stripe (DULUX # 289-4202)

It's a hard call to make; I can't recall ever seeing Dante Red wheels & silver stripe with blackwalls. The red wheels really dress up a black Buick with whitewalls.

The black wheels & silver stripe would look good with whitewalls and blackwalls. So now there are four choices (sorry). As for powder coating, isn't the standard procedure for painting wheels just to add hardener to the paint during the mixing process? Your wheels should shine like your paint.

Radials will totally change the look of your car. I've taken my bias-plied Buick all over the country, on all types of roads & highways (contruction zones included) without any problems. The debate rages, but I don't see the need for radials, period. In 30K plus miles since I've had her, I'm now on my second set of Coker Classic whitewalls. They don't yellow if you clean 'em properly and often.

Here's a '41, Bandelier Blue with red wheels and WW's, but it's a 328Kb file and will blow up well. Print out a good size copy on bright white paper and black out the red (leaving the white, reflective area) to see the black wheel WW version. You already know what your black wheel BW combo looks like.

In my humble opinion, your car would look swell with blackwalls. I agree with the others on that point. It would almost be refreshing, and your car would stand out from all others...dressed up with the silver stripe, hubcaps and trim rings.

Tom Gibson

[Guest unclefogey]

TEN, TEN GALLON MILK CANS???? Holy ----!!! That's about 800+ pounds! No wonder the original springs on my '41, Mod 46 are shot. I am going to check out the claim, in volume only, because I have one eight gal. milk can, to see if I can get the foot print of 10 cans in the back.

Speaking of springs, because of the sad shape of my rear springs, I was reading a recent thread on the Post-War site about springs and the attachment to this thread seems to refute a statement in that thread that a normal height would be by having a line at the bottom of the rocker panel bisect the center of the hubcap.

Also in that thread were numerous concerns about original springs having ground flat surfaces on the ends, and replacement units not being so manufactured. I sent a quote request to Coil Spring Specialties and mentioned the concern about the end treatment as discussed on this website. I asked specifically what the end treatment would be for a '41, Mod 46. The reply was:

Coil spring end formations:

1 each - pigtail

1 each - full wound open.

Can anyone interpret this?

My car is in the shop for an engine rebuild, so I can't check out what the originals might look like. Also, was the postcard of the '41 scanned as an attachment? I am curious what the complete narrative on the bottom stated.

Thanks,

John

[TG57Roadmaster]

Uncle Fogey,

What's with the TEN GALLON MILK CANS? It's a bit early in the day, but I'll have what you're having!

Here's a little period nugget I found while looking for something else. From top to bottom are; LaSalle, Terraplane, Oldsmobile, Buick, and Dodge...all '34's, all sporting blackwalls.

Tom Gibson

[Matt Harwood]

John, here's a photo of what your front springs should look like:

The top part is known as the pigtail, and note that it is smaller than the rest of the coils. The bottom-most coil is the same diameter as the rest, but sits close to (or on) the second lowest coil. Also note the blue and white paint daubs. The blue indicates a Century/Roadmaster front spring, and the white daub indicates that it is the standard spring, not the heavy-duty spring which also raised the car 1 inch for rough roads. Interesting, no?

Hope this helps.

[Guest unclefogey]

Matt,

Thanks very much for clearing up what the response from Coil Spring Specialties was trying to tell me. I was about to move on to another vendor in spite of the positive responses about their work in the thread on the Post-War site because they wouldn't say they ground the ends of the coils. My problem is with my rear springs on the '41 and I hope they exhibit the same pigtail as the picture of the fronts on your '41. Appears that the pigtail provides about the closest you can get to a flat surface on the top of the coil spring and this will prevent the bowing of the springs under load.

Tom,

No, I wasn't under the influence of any controlled or uncontroled substances when I referenced the milk cans. I was only under the influence of having spent a lot of time in the late '40's and early '50's on my grandfather's dairy farm, 12 cows milked by hand supported by 80 acres of land, a bygone era. Every morning and evening, the eight gallon milk cans filled in the barn were loaded into the trunk of a '36 Ford, which was replaced by a '37, which lastly was replaced by a '46. They were transported up the hill to the milk house and placed in the concrete milk tank filled with cold well water. The "milkman" would come every other day to pickup the cans in a 2 1/2 ton enclosed but not refrigerated truck. Imagine throwing 8 gal., 64 lb. or 10 gal., 80 lb. cans up to the level of a truck bed all day long and then arranging them neatly.

It was the claim by Buick in the postcard that you could stash 10, 10 gal. cans in the back of a '41, Mod. 46 that brought it all back and the disbelief on my part that it could be done. If it could, the rear bumper had to be dragging. Sorry to confuse the tire issue. My only response is, "Long live radials and their obvious safety factor".

Uncle, farm guy, fogey

[Guest edalfa]

[it was the claim by Buick in the postcard that you could stash 10, 10 gal. cans in the back of a '41, Mod. 46 that brought it all back and the disbelief on my part that it could be done. If it could, the rear bumper had to be dragging. Sorry to confuse the tire issue. My only response is, "Long live radials and their obvious safety factor".

Uncle, farm guy, fogey

No confusion at all. I don't believe the ad stated whether or not the cans were full and in what position they were placed. I'm having a tough time deciding on tires. Original appearance is certainly important but to a large extent that can be addressed by chosing the tire based on dimensions rather than the specified size. Metric exchange tables measure "airbag volume" rather than dimensional compatibility. If replace thusly, the tires look a bit short.

On the other hand, I used to work for someone who had several 40's Chrysler T&C's. He had WWW Radials on one and it did not look correct. The tire did not fill the fender as robustly as the bias tires did.

As far as the Whitewall vs Blackwall question goes, I'm trying to find out what Bessie had on her originally. I am doing what I can to research the original price as it appears on the invoice (attached). Any direction will be appreciated.

Ed

[TG57Roadmaster]

Dear unclefogey,

A thousand pardons for my confusion re the <span style="font-weight: bold">10 milk cans</span> . In my haste to scan the image, I didn't even bother to read the text for the '41 Special Business Coupe. I've re-scanned it for my original reply, which is above. It's not just any ol' postcard image...it's straight from the 10"x14" 1941 Buick Brochure. As Specials were "priced just above the low-priced three", the ad agency boys had to milk every opportunity for sales (a baaad pun). That the text for this beautiful, yet affordable car reached all the way into the Heartland speaks volumes on Buick's unique place in the industry.

Farmers could own Buicks, and so could captains of industry, royalty, movie stars and other assorted rich folks. Witness the interior of the '41 Limited Formal Sedan, from the huge 14"x16" Limited Prestige Brochure. Why bother toting the cans to and fro' the milkhouse, waiting for the Milkman, when you could get 3 or 4 <span style="font-weight: bold">cows</span> in back and go right to town? Cut out the middle man. But then there's that pesky spring issue again.

Admittedly, I howled when I finally "got it", the 10 can thing, on arriving home after dinner at a friend's tonight (we were <span style="font-style: italic">not</span> drinking milk). Thanks for sharing your memories of those bygone days.

Glad you "Got Milk",

Tom Gibson

[TG57Roadmaster]

This one's for Bessie,

It's from the '40 Buick Salesman's Facts Book. Shows the tire sizes, and manufacturers as U.S. Royal, Firestone, and Goodyear. Given that WW's were optional, what was the $152 in "equip. & access." spent on? Radio, under-dash heater, underseat heater, outside rear view mirror, vaccuum booster for windshield wipers and minor accessories, all cost extra. How cool to have the original invoice!

Just the facts, Ma'am,

Sergeant Friday (aka Tom Gibson)

[Guest edalfa]

Tom,

The extra $152.00 was for the radio and heater. It is itemized on a seperate sheet.

Ed

[Guest DaveCorbin]

Dear Ed:

Since your invoice accounts for the $152, a mental subtraction leaves $0 as the cost of anything else, which means that nothing else was factory furnished, or, by subtraction, blackwalls were originally furnished. They woud be Goodyears or Goodrich by brand, as Firestone was a Ford supplier.

Incidentally, my 1938 black Special 2 door has the optional (at no additional cost) red wheels and chrome trim rings. They practically jump off the car and hit you in the eye!! In it's first life, it was the to-the-office car of the eye doctor in Ennis, Texas. Eyewitness descriptions of it indicated that it DID have BFG whitewalls originally, and that's the way it looks today

Regards, Dave Corbin

[R Walling]

I purchased the Corker Radial W/W 6.50 WW tires. for my car @ $196 each along

with tubes for $24.95. They are built to look like bias ply tires and I am

very happy with the looks. I just wish that they were tubeless.

Recommend pressure is 40lbs.

[TG57Roadmaster]

Hard to believe, but they did show some cars in brochures with blackwalls. In this '40 Olds piece, the entire line of Model 60's (even the convertible) was shown that way. Trim rings were available but not illustrated in the Sixty line-up.

Tom Gibson

[Guest edalfa]

I really like this salesmen's book! Is it an original piece or a repop? I spent some time staring at Bessie today. She came to me in blackwalls and from all I can discern (including scribbling on the appropriate catalog page) she came from the factory that way. Who am I to argue?

Ed

[TG57Roadmaster]

Ed

Here's proof that even some Classics (those recognized by the CCCA) wore blackwalls. This 1941 Lincoln Custom, 7-pasenger Sedan, 138" WB is owned by a friend in Tennessee. It's completely original, bought from the estate of one of the Singer sewing machine heirs; low mileage, and if memory serves, the tires are original, too.

TG

[Guest edalfa]

I had been a bit on the fence about Wide Whites but decided stick with the orginal configuration. Today, I came across an identical car on ebay with the wide whites on it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1940-Buic...071094011QQrdZ1

Now I'm sure that blackwalls are the way to go! I like the look much better.

Ed

[Guest imported_Thriller]

The end of the rainbow shot in that auction is neat.

[Guest ewing]

What is even more interesting to me is that it is in California, and it has a Manitoba license plate on it.

It is an 83 base plate, a late issue becauce all lettering is black, not black and red on white as in the first issue, used until 96.

The validation sticker appears to be black that would make it a 96 sticker. Or maybe a brown sticker, that would be a 90 year sticker.

It also has only one year sticker, which could indicate it was only licenced for one year ( no consecutive years, if the stickers were applied right. ie. they alternated from left to right side in consecutive years.

That's probably more trivial information than any one needs!

John

[Guest imported_Thriller]

Cool...I hadn't noticed that and the plates changed by the time I moved here, so the tag info was new. There's also the CAA sticker on the bumper (Canadian Automobile Association...affiliated with AAA).

I don't see anything that would identify it as a Canadian car...then again, I'm not entirely sure what to look for.

[Matt Harwood]

I thought I posted this yesterday, but it didn't take. Here's a photo of my rear spring showing the pigtail:

Note that there is both an upper and lower pigtail on the rear springs. The spring is actually secured to the spring perches in the frame with a bolt that threads into the spring pocket itself and a large washer. You can see the springs hanging from the frame in this photo:

Note the round spring perches and you can even see the square nut that is actually welded to the frame into which the bolt threads to hold the rear springs in place.

I think the pigtails are simply to give the spring some stability, as you mention. They usually compress completely once the weight of the car is sitting on them and the larger coils become the load-bearing pieces. The rear springs are (obviously) much lighter duty than the fronts, but have the pigtail top and bottom.

Hope this is more helpful than the front spring photo.

[Guest unclefogey]

Matt,

Thanks for the pictures of the rears. Based on your explanation of the description of a "pigtail" end treatment and the picture of the front spring previously provided, I went ahead and bought a pair of rears from Coil Spring Specialties. I totally ignored all the comments on the post-war site about the end of the coils needing to be ground flat. As I stated in a post to the post-war site, I ordered them on the 9th and they were delivered on the 12th. Opened the box and found the paint not quite dry.

At the same time, I picked up Bob's catalog and ordered everything listed as parts for rear spring installation, including two left hand threaded bolts. Having received all items, I then did what I should have done in the first place, and that is to page through the '41 shop manual. To my dismay, I didn't find one word on rear spring replacement procedures. Is this so simple a job that there wasn't a need to explain what should be done and anyone who knows which end of a wrench to use can do it?

Is there somewhere online that I could find instructions or could you give a short synopsis of what has to be done? I would assume the radius rod has to be disconnected and so too the stabilizer links. Also the brake lines. Guess I will have to return to Bob's catalog for the purchase of rubber bushings. At this point can the axle be lowered without any other disassembly?

Right now I am severly limited in my ability to analyze the situation since the car is still at the engine rebuilder. Your picture of frame rolled out from under the body allowed me to understand where the left hand threaded bolts reside. Any help would be appreciated. I believe the car will be back in my garage someday. But she is probably enjoying the heated space where she is now as opposed to my cold garage.

Thanks,

John

[Matt Harwood]

Hi John,

Sorry it's taken a while to get back on this. From what I recall, here's how I would remove and replace the springs:

<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*] Disconnect sway bar end links[*] Disconnect rear shock links from frame (rear shocks are bolted to the brake backing plate, oddly enough)[*]Disconnect one end or the other of the track bar (Panhard rod). I don't think it matters which end.

At this point, you can probably start lowering the rear end until it is hanging from the springs and <span style="font-style: italic">all</span> the potential energy in the springs is gone. You might want to jack it up a fraction just to take the pressure off of the spring perches, especially those on the top where it bolts to the frame. Then you can remove the bolt and large washer that holds the upper spring to the frame, then do the same with the lower (at least I think it's bolted at the bottom, I don't really recall--it will be obvious, though).

I think you can probably leave the brake lines connected since the flex line should give you enough play to maneuver in there. If not, try to unbolt the clips and loosen the lines at their mounting points rather than opening the system. This should be a last resort. I believe, and it's been a long time since I've seen one assembled, that the flex line for the rear brakes is near the torque ball so you should have plenty of room to drop the rear end.

Let me know if you run into problems. I took a lot of pictures of taking mine apart, so I can dig through those if you get stuck. Hope this helps and good luck!

[Guest edalfa]

In line with the suggestion of black with red wheels, I have attached a picture of a 39 Special from Ebay in just that color combo.

Ed