my 1938 special: the chronicle

[Oxnard Montalvo]

Sorry I can't be of much help. I do know the adjusting MUST be done on a HOT motor, running or not. (thermal expansion)

Doing it while the motor is running will make you go crosseyed and develop a twitch, but it is the best way. Be patient. Get it right, you'll feel it when you can just pull the shim out.

I just adjusted my valve lash and didn't even notice if the pushrods were all spinning. Oh well, I'm just going to assume they were.

I believe the cam lobe has taper in it, and the lifter has a crown to make it rotate. So when that crown or taper is gone because of wear, the lifters won?t rotate which means the pushrods won't either.

But maybe they're just a little sticky. I'd run it the way it is for a while, see what happens. And maybe it's not all that critical, these motors are tough.

They raced the small straight eight at Indy in the mid thirties, Stubby Stubblefield and his mechanic were killed during qualifing with a Buick powered Riging in 1935.

[Guest ZondaC12]

okay i know exactly how that works now! thanks. dont worry about not being too much help, i made a thread in the pre-war forum, so the tech experts will probably chime in. besides, that taper-crown design answer was what i was after too.

[Guest ZondaC12]

okay im guessing you edited your post because the picture and some other text wasnt there when i first read it about 2 days ago or so. text like "must be done on a hot motor". i had guessed this was due to heat issues and expansion. what the problem is is that i went ahead (not having seen that text yet) and adjusted the valves with the engine cold. i pulled the plugs, so the starter motor would be using much less juice and be stressed less because of frequent bits of cranking. however i had been perusing some sites that i found on google while searching for this topic, and they all (yes some were for newer engines and high-performance, some info was on camshaft websites, instructions for break-in, i was able to differentiate between that and what applied to me, dont worry) mentioned that if you adjust em cold, add .002 or .003 to the lash to account for expansion.

recall that when i attempted this before, the engine was hot, and the lash on some valves near the front were right at .015. i checked these same valves to see if .018 (my feeler gauge doesnt have .017) and sure enough it fit right in! i mean FIT RIGHT IN, as in miding that fact that you have to check to wiggle the gauge and see if theres give, or too tight etc. so i went ahead and adjusted the rest of them to this also. for many (6-8-ish?) they were too tight and it wouldnt fit.

tonight i ran it. i actually came up with an ingenious design (in my opinion) to vent exhaust fumes out of the garage, as the car is up on jackstands right now so i can work on the brakes. if anyone recalls, i made a flex pipe straight system all the way to the back. i had bought one extra section by accident, so i attached this one to extend it ~18 inches past the bumper, then shoved that into two shop-vac plastic pipes that were attached together and sealed it with duct tape! pretty jury-rigged, huh? well it worked great. i put a spray bottle of water next to it and occassionally during the few minutes i ran it, sprayed it and the pipes never got too warm to grasp with my hands, at least for 5-10 seconds. i had the garage door open about 1 foot, thats all i needed to point the pipe outside, and it was outside by like two feet and pointing off to the side.

with my "warm-up blanket" (piece of clear plastic sheeting) on top of the grille as usual, the car warmed up to the first temp mark in a few minutes. during this time, the valves sounded overall a little bit louder, but only a little, and it was VERY uniform. before there were one or two spots where it was more of a uniform whirring, and some spots where it was a tapping-knocking sound. especially notable was that when id give it some gas, the tapping would get louder, and i could hear it well through the firewall. this time, that was non existent. the whirring just got a little louder and faster of course. the engine also seemed to run a bit smooter, i couldnt tell too much, but it seemed like to just a little bit less of an extent did it go blauuh-blu-blauauhbblu--bluuuuh-bluh, seeminlgy "tripping and stumbling over itself" when i held the throttle above idle and suddenly let it off. perhaps the valves are closing more properly and completely and at the right time, etc?

i should note that its not JUST "whirring". yes, i know that this can mean they are too tight and that = BAD!!! you can hear ticka-ticka-ticka but before it was more TOCK-TOCK-TOCK as you heard from the video(s). Ox (do you mind me referring to you as that? if you do mind i wont anymore, please tell me what youd like me to refer to you as), if you still think i should adjust them hot, ill do that. i should have some time this weekend.

[JohnD1956]

If it sounds right, leave it alone for a while and run it when you can. Remember it will be totally different outside in the driveway and with the valve cover on and hood closed.

It's going to get cold soon, I'd recommend you save the "stand up" jobs for the colder weather and put the pressure on the brakes.

JD

[Guest ZondaC12]

okay sounds good.

and yes it certainly is getting colder, cutting into my stuff-i-can-do-outside-time. however i got that heater fan working (did i mention that? if not ill tell about that later...) so i will still run it to warm it up about 1 once a week/once per two weeks, i discovered that even though the amount of airflow coming from it feels marginal compared to the blasting systems of our modern cars, it warms the interior up QUICK and very warm! so thats pretty neat and useful.

ill probably run the other side front brake line this weekend. if i have a rare abundance of time, and the weather is nice (like above 40-50) maybe ill try and adjust the valves while its running, but i wont kill myself trying to do it.

[rider]

I remember years (eons?) ago there used to be a company that made mufflers for OHV engines. Some people made their own by taking a turkish towel and forming up about 3-4 layers thick and covering the result with heavy canvas. These were made to just cover the rocker arms on both Buick and dare I say ? Chevys. If you want to try something like this soak it with engine oil and install. With the rocker cover on it may quiet the tap-tap a little bit.

Good Luck,

Walt

[Guest ZondaC12]

yup you read right.

i picked up brake hoses from a local NAPA on monday, and that night i installed the front passenger side wheel cylinder, and connected it to the line with the brake hose, then tightened every connection in that line up, then connected it to the stoplight switch. i did remove the stoplight switch however, cleaned it up good, and filled a small container with denatured alcohol, and shook the switch around in it a lot for like 2 minutes to get out any crap in there. so its clean and there is no remaining bits of fluid, so i can safely use the DOT 5 silicone stuff (i think some people use it now because it doesnt collect moisture ans rust things, right? although somewhere i thought i read that in-line stoplight switches don't like it? can someone confirm/disprove this theory?)

so im happily on my way, i think i should have everything installed very soon. ive got Christmas Break coming up week after next, so i think everything should all be installed by some point during that time, then i can fill 'er up and bleed the system!

[JohnD1956]

We anxiously await the day it stops on it's own. It's almost time to start thinking about insurance and registration so you can drive it down the road.

JD

[Guest ZondaC12]

believe me so do i.

i dont know why i havent asked you about that yet (insurance/registration), seeing as you live in this state!

what should i go for? what are the important rules concerning "historical" cars? should i get historical plates or find 1938 plates and do antique plates? i cant believe i forgot to ask mr. mattot about those (he mentioned to me at the saratoga museum he might have 1938 plates) when i went to visit him and he gave me the tires. perhaps ill ask him sometime, but are there other ways i might find some? any show/meet next spring that might have a swap meet that i might find some at? (i must say i partly dont want to ask mr. mattot because i feel he has given too much to me. i dont like taking that much stuff for free, i would probably offer to pay him something for them)

i thought i read somewhere that insurance is a lot cheaper with either antique plates or historic plates (or both? i dont know) than just a normal registration, of course they mandate that you drive a very small number of miles each year because it assumes the car is just for show use, etc, which woulndnt be a problem, i wont be driving it too much anyway.

[JohnD1956]

I have JC Taylor Antique insurance. I have this on my 56 and my 69 GS. It costs me less than a hundred dollars per year. But I do have my cars a bit undervalued for the market.

I have a 56 plate on that, but standard plates on the GS. The 56 I have to register every year, the GS once every two years. The 56 reg costs me $23.00, the GS is a lot more.

Both cars HAVE to be garaged. They had to have paint ( I tried to add my 69 Electra but that is in primer and they would not write the policy for that car?)

Each car is limited to 2,500 miles per year, for shows and maintainence use only. In my book Maintenance includes weekend trips to exercise the kiddies. But I took the GS to Batavia and all over this summer to Lake George a few times etc. and I just met the limit on that car. The 56 has never met that limit since I've had this policy, and that's been close to 15 years ( this includes in 2003 when I took it to Flint Michigan for the centenial meet) .

My recommendation is this:

Determine the value of your car. Then decide what you would want for it if the car became a total loss ( fire/ theft/ vandalism) The application has been in the Bugle, so I'd call them.

Then Contact Dick to see if he has the plate. Offer to buy it. The worst case is you couldn't afford it, then you can decide how to deal with the plate issue be it historical or standard plates.

JD

[Guest ZondaC12]

gahh! i determined that the dripping ive noticed when running (but more whe shutting it off) is the cork round seal on the fuel pump (pump part not sediment bowl) is leaking gas. looked in the shop manual, don know if i should try and remove it, seems like camshaft needs to be removed? no? can i unscrew the top cover of the pump? if not, what can i do? just more bumps in the road eh.....?

[Guest ZondaC12]

well i took it apart today, my bus driver said it will just come out, the arm is part of it, and is just pushed on by the cam lobe. sure enough, thats how it went. i didnt think i would have to go that far, but the glass bowl had a little bit of junk in the bottom as did the ceramic thing so i cleaned em, also to find that the filter screen above the ceramic piece was significantly torn up. the diaphragm is a bit rough, old and worn out looking, thats the "seal" i though was leaking. the gasket that seals the pump to the crankcase was very wet, possibly from fuel running down it, or maybe it was inside. also, out of one of the four tiny holes under the pump, fuel kept dripping out. so i think the diaphragm is worn out pretty good, and leaking fuel somewhere. maybe all three places! who knows. but i couldnt pull the diaphragm off the brass piece its attached to. though the same thing happened for the top half of the pump, wouldnt budge, even using the vice, didnt want to harm it, but i tugged on it occassionally, finding no other screws, and eventually pop! it suddenly came off and popped upward. so these things seem to just be stuck together pretty good. i looked up pumps on kanter, and it would be $95 to replace, and i dont think i saw rebuild kits, but bob's had just kits, and they were $26. should i rebuild or replace? would it be worth the extra cash to start fresh, or not?

[Guest sixpack2639]

As long as your pump housing itself isn't damaged a rebuild kit is the way to go. A lot less expensive than replacing the whole pump and they're not hard to rebuild. Biggest thing is to make sure everything is clean before reassembly. And don't make the mistake I see a lot of inexperienced guys do which is slathering a bunch of RTV on the gaskets. You don't need it or it would come with the kit! A light film of RTV to hold a gasket in place durring assembly is ok on some things but not fuel related stuff like pumps and carbs. And make sure it's a new reproduction kit not a NOS one. The new kits use a rubber diaphram designed to stand up to todays fuels the NOS ones were made long before the additives in todays fuel and will not last as long. Good luck with it, Carl

[Guest ZondaC12]

should i clean everything with denatured alcohol? is that a good general cleaner for almost anything? someone said to clean out brake lines/hoses with it, just wondering if its good here too.if not what should i use?

thanks

[Guest sixpack2639]

Denatured alcohol is fine, or you can use mineral spirits, safety kleen, or anything else comparable.

[Guest John Chapman]

Probably the best cleaner for the project you're doing right now is Berryman B12 Chemtool. NAPA carries it, as should any decent auto parts supply. It is very volatile, so use only in well-ventilated spaces and away from any open flame or heat source. I'd also recommend using disposable nitrile gloves (avalilable at almost any pharmacy in boxes of 50). The Chemtool will take ALL the oil out of your skin and your fingers will dry and crack. The gloves are also handy to keep from completely trashing your hands when doing any dirty chores on the car.

Cheers,

JMC

[JohnD1956]

Hey Zonda, Where do you stand with this now? Did you try to rebuild the pump? And how are the brakes coming along?

JD

[Guest ZondaC12]

hey, sorry i havent posted in awhile.

i ordered a rebuild kit from Bob's last week, still hasnt come yet. i know theyre in Cali, but i still figured maybe id get it by yesterday. i dont go back to school until tues., so if i comes monday ill do it then.

the brakes are DONE. two days ago i installed the rear right cyl and lines going to it. master cylinder is in now also. its ALL DONE.

now all thats left is to fill and bleed. i was thinking of doing that this weekend. i read in hemmings (jan 06 issue) the commentary on brake fluid, while the writer was addressing a reader's question about a brake emergency light in his 69 tbird. he says he doesnt like how DOT5 can aerate easily and make bleeding hard etc, it is somewhat compressible, etc. i happen to have two bottles one unopened, the other opened very recently, of dot3&dot4 (thats what it says on the bottle) valvoline SynPower synthetic fluid. the writer said that "unless youre storing your car in a museum for 20 years or in a tropical jungle, the glycol based fluid wont do any damage". im thinking ill just go with this stuff. dot5 is available at autozone etc right? or not? if so, should i get it anyway? i know this is one of those issues that people cant seem to come to a decision about, so i personally see the HCC writer's opinion very much and and it seems like a good idea. so just tell me what you think and ill decide, lets not have a long-winded discussion.

i googled "bleed brakes" and came across this: http://www.teamscr.com/brakes.html its for modern Saturns, and it mentions "the pedal will drop to the floor" but a tag came with my new M/C saying NEVER stroke the piston more than an inch because the rear seal goes past the filler hole this way and fluid will leak past and out the end of the M/C that the rubber boot is on. so obviously this isnt good for me. what is the process i should go through, for <span style="font-style: italic">this</span> car? oh, and i came across these when i happened to glance at one of my dad's "Spitfire and GT6 magazine" magazines the other day : http://www.speedbleeder.com/ maybe i should wait and buy some of these? or is it actually easy enough to do the normal way?

[JohnD1956]

Once again this is an area where I don't have a lot to offer. I have always used DOT 3 because I have never completely changed a system such as you have done. I would think the silicone is the best since you have everything new. And all I know for sure is you NEVER mix DOT 3 with the silicone. Perhaps you ought to call the manufacturer (or rebuilder) of the MC and get their recommendation. You certainly would not want to put in silicone and find you voided any warranty.

Also the rebuilder may have a good plan for you on the bleeding. If you can't go more than an inch on the pedal, which seems very restrictive to me, then there must be some procedure that's required. Did you adjust the shoes up after installing the brake drums? If not I can almost guarantee you'll go more than an inch on the first stroke of the brake pedal.

If the master cylinder allows the fluid to flow without pushing the brake pedal, then you can simply open the bleeders and fill the MC. When fluid comes out of the bleeders, just shut them If the fluid does not flow without pushing the pedal, you have to have two people to do this job.

JD

[Guest ZondaC12]

well then ill go to dot5. i looked at the letters section of the HCC issue again and the person writing in actually mentioned on the side that everything went just fine, and the pedal was firm and everything etc. their only problem was that the warning light kept coming on. the mag writer diagnosed it as some check valve or sensor sticking, making the warning system think there was no pressure in the system, even though everything was working fine.

ill see about contacting kanter i guess, and ill ask if they rebuild/repro them or find out who does. in the meantime someone else may chime in here too. that sounds like a neat idea, just pouring the fluid in with the bleeders open, but the line goes up higher than the level of the master cylinder at some points so i dont think that will work. thanks though.

well even if i cant do this now im still frickin happy the system is FINALLY put together

[Guest ZondaC12]

so i did some *GASP* cosmetic stuff today!

i cleaned up that dirty grille. i had a wire brush attachment i bought from a local Harbor Freight store, for my Dremel, and used that at first, on the right side. but, the wires were GONE by the bottom, maybe 1/32nd of an inch of wire sticking out all around. i have to see if they or any other place has JUST wire brush attachments. i got the thing in a package they had, it was $7, includes all of these other cutting discs, polshing wheels, etc. i JUST want a wire brush! it worked so well, and was so quick, only took like 10 minutes, but then i was forced to use this ultra fine steel wool i found in my garage for the other side, hence i only did ~2/3 of it because my arms were tired and it was annoying. but i couldnt and STILL cant believe how good it looks! nice pure chrome plating. it just gleams in the light. so beautiful. attached is a front view.

were gonna have a decent sized storm here tonight into tomorrow (is it just me or do these ALWAYS happen on sunday nights or nights that are the last night of a week-long school vacation? not complaining, it has caused a snow day before, but just seems weird) so maybe a snow day. im not getting my hopes up, i almost never do, but hey, you never know! if it happens, ill bet the fuel pump rebuild kit will come tomorrow, and kanter will be open so i can call 'em up. ill be working feverishly, get the brake system filled and bled, and rebuild that pump, maybe even pull the car out and run it (hasnt run in awhile). i really want to get it down off the jackstands, it looks real nice sitting at the height it sits normally, and being able to roll out and run it is nice too.

[Guest ZondaC12]

the finished side

[Guest ZondaC12]

other side, a great "before-and-after"!

i should mention this!!!!!: YES i did NOT do the top surfaces, i realized quickly that the brush wouldnt last long, i will do those surfaces when i get some new brushes.

[Guest ZondaC12]

also, promised pics of the finished brake system!

[Guest ZondaC12]

the line to the fr. left

[Guest ZondaC12]

stoplight switch

[Guest ZondaC12]

rear brake hose

[Guest ZondaC12]

rear lines

[Guest ZondaC12]

front right

[JohnD1956]

The Grill looks great. And the brakes look very good too. One thing. Check the travel on the front wheel flex lines. They both look tight to me. Is there enough room to turn the wheels lock to lock without stressing the flex lines?

JD

[Guest sixpack2639]

Hey JD, I was thinking the same thing when I saw the pictures. They do look like they may be a little on the short side.

Paul, when you check those have someone else watch to make sure you don't pull them tight and damage them internally. Carl

[Guest ZondaC12]

it may be the angle from which the picture was taken, because they are jsut fine. there is still a somewhat "S" shape to the hose, and it is as flexible as it is at any other position. (i actually just went out to check it hehe, stuff like that concerns me a great deal)

[Guest sixpack2639]

Glad to hear it Paul, better safe than sorry! But they still look short in the pics.?. Carl

[JohnD1956]

Paul, I would post those pictures on the pre-war site, to see what other 38 owners say. I'm sure the line are flexible now but what about in a few years? What you want to be sure of is that you do not pinch the flex lines when turning the wheels lock to lock, which it looks like it will do eventually.

Was there another bracket further up the frame towards the front wheels such that you should run a short piece of steel line, reducing the distance between the steel brake line and the wheel cylinder?

[Guest ZondaC12]

ok ill do that. but id just like to note that the original hoses i pulled off the car were only a little harder and stiffer than the new ones, and didnt show ANY cracks even when i bent them very far. (except of course the rear hose, that was destroyed). and they can move lock to lock without bending them severely.

but i will take some pics, at multiple angles, and post 'em in the pre war forum. better safe than sorry right?

[JohnD1956]

Absolutely. You may have it exactly right but sixpack saw the same potential as I did. Most of us have only our experience to guide us and one thing I know is this: There is no substitute for correct brakes.

[Guest ZondaC12]

oh and no there is no other bracket like you mentioned.

i was thinking too fast, forgot to add that, i wanna make sure i give you all the info you asked for, who knows, anything could be very important

alright im going to bed now, dead tired, im still not ready to go back to school, lol

and NO we didnt get a snowday . doh. well the snow just didnt continue all that long. 2 hr delays are cool though.

and no fuel pump kit either. im calling bob's tomorrow to make sure it shipped out okay, etc. seems like 5 days shouldve been plenty of time???

[Guest ZondaC12]

thaaaaaats right! today my friend came over and helped me fill and bleed the brake system. there was nothing like it when i pushed that pedal and it responded with a nice firm resitance. the pads grip good and everything.

the only hitch was two leaks, one at a union in the line going to the front right cylinder, and one coming off the two way splitter at the rear of the car. however both were about a tiny drop or two's worth on the threads. tonight i went under there and REALLY tightened both of em up, and i think ive stopped the leaks. even if they continue theyll be very small so much that it might actually make a drop on the ground, what once a month? i dont mind that.

that said, heres the cause:

ill admit some of the flares i made (with the excpetion of the front right line, both ends of it are factory flares) were sub-par. that is such a painful experience, i would often get frustrated and settle for a not-quite perfect flare, in fact most of them werent perfect. however i could tap em with a hammer and flatten the top a little to get it even, and file off the sides to get em round, and they seemed pretty decent. though it seems many of them held up fine! ill bet i just didnt tighten up the front right line enough, and hey, even factory ones could be imperfect! the rear one i think i made, although maybe it just needed tightening too.

so as of right now, the only problem i rather didnt expect.... the stoplight switch!!! rrrr, stupid little bugger. i have NO idea whats inside of it! so i have no idea what could be wrong with it. any ideas? i could just bleed off any pressure from a wheel cylinder, unscrew the switch, plug the hole with something, and replace the switch. can i get it at Bob's, Kanter, etc? (it IS the switch, by the way, if i short the contacts with a screwdriver, they turn on.)

but, a great day, and i HAVE BRAKES. how cool is that?

I also forgot to mention: fuel pump rebuild kit came on friday, Bob's sure did send it via fast mail, called em up and they lost the order or something, something about problems with the internet i think. but he said they had em in stock, and hed send one out immediately via fast shipping. so i dont blame em, nota problem. so i rebuilt it that afternoon, evening. that night, about 7:00, DARK outside lol, fired her up. i used my shop vac, pushing the fuel line into the crevice-nozzle a little, so it sucked the fuel through the line a little, somewhere i read its bad for the pump to run dry. so there was fuel at the carb i think, but it was cold so it sputtered and wouldnt start. the car has one of those little switches under the dash that prevents it from cranking, so i flipped it, pumped the gas to make the accel pump prime it (works nice! never tried it before so i didnt know). flipped the switch back, cranked and started up in a hurry. what a beautiful engine, huh?

[Guest imported_MrEarl]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

but, a great day, and i HAVE BRAKES. how cool is that?

</div></div>

That't super cool dude Congratulations !!!!!!!!

I know the feeling. One of the first things I had to do on Irene was to totally replace the power brake set up that the previous idiot owner had removed and replace with a manual brake set. Boy that was fun. A 54 power brake system is one of the most complex yet worse systems of the 50's.

So congrats and keep up the great work. I've really enjoyed reading and keeping up with your "chronicle". You should be very proud of all your achievments.

Happy wrenching,

[Bill Stoneberg]

Stoplight switches are a common item to go bad on these older cars. Bobs have them for about 10 bucks.

If you have a cell phone I would call Bobs and actually talk to them as opposed to the internet. Two reasons, you can pick up some good information as they begin to understand what you are doing. And orders that way dont get "lost". Also they are very friendly people with a good knowledge base.

Keep up the good work.