my 1938 special: the chronicle

[JohnD1956]

Tell us what your brake plans are. For instance, do you plan to replace all the barke lines, the flex lines, the wheel cylinders, abd the brake shoes and hardware? Or just some of this?

JD

[Guest ZondaC12]

well i already got the new wheel cylinders and master cylinder. so im replacing those, the brake lines, and, since i discovered it yesterday, the 5" long brake hose in the middle of the line going towards the back from the splitter. it is cracked all over and shriveled and eaten away. the brake pads/hardware/etc is still in good shape. a bit weathered-looking, but still very strong.

[Bill Stoneberg]

It sounds like you engine still has good consistant compression. IOt also sounds like you are having a fun time with the brake lines.

The 47, after finding the poor compression, got totally rebuilt last winter.

It ran much better until the rebuilt clutch blew apart. I am finishing that up now and hope to be driving the car again soon.

When using the pb blaster, are you tapping the bolts and nuts after applying it ? Maybe because of the way the fittings are on brakes, it is not working as advertised. Tapping and applying and tapping helps.

[Guest ZondaC12]

ok ill do that, thanks for the advice!

re: the 47

i remember reading that thread!!!! oh MAAAAANNNNNNN i felt terrible! thats the WORST possible time for something like that to happen! one thing i remember thinking was "oh geez i wonder if something like thats gonna happen to me if i try and drive this thing to a show or something". murphy's law at work i guess.

what a joke.

well, at least youre well on your way to getting it driveable again. ive seen pictures youve posted of it before, it looks great!

[JohnD1956]

Bill is right about the PB blaster and the brake lines. I would not expect it to penetrate the fittings on these lines because if it could, then there would probably be enough space for there to be a leak when the brakes are applied. Putting PB blaster on the fittings would only have been a last ditch attempt to break the rust of the fitting around the line, which obviously didn't work because the ends twisted anyway.

Your plan sounds solid. That 5" line in the middle is probably the flex line. You should also look for one of these on each side of the front. Since you are going this far, I'd replace those now too. As a matter of fact, since it appears you are changing all the parts relative to the hydraulic ( fluid) part of the system, you may want to use the silicone brake fluid instead of the DOT3.

The advantage is the silicone will not absorb water as the DOT 3 does, but the down side is the two apparently do not mix and so you need a completely fresh hydraulic side before using it.

I have never had this situation for my own cars so I would suggest you do some more checking around about pros and cons of this before doing any fluid fills.

JD

[Guest ZondaC12]

sorry for not posting for awhile, it just slipped my mind and ive been a bit busy, partly with another problem that came up with this car.

last week on tuesday, the day of the week i let it down of the jackstands, roll it out of the garage and run it for about 15 minutes, i was trying to investigate as to why it persisted in being hard to start when warmed up. i assumed it cranked slower when warm just because of hotter air, expands, tougher to compress, equals slower cranking. well it occured to me to check the cable going from the battery to the starter solenoid, just from a hunch, and knowledge of what loose connections do, partly from experience. well it was loose, the nut was several turns loose. i began to retighten it, and once it was tightened up, i heard and saw sparking and some smoke coming from the connection and i panicked, but sat there for a few seconds deciding what do to. i dont know why. i decided to disconnect the cable from the battery, i guess i was afraid to put my hands anywhere near the connection.

i then took it off the solenoid to find about an inch of the rubber covering burned away on the side of the thick wire that was right next to the solenoid cover. the cable is made like having the end of the wire set on top of the tab with the hole through it, so because i put it on with the "wire-side" nearest the cover, and the side "flush-with-the-other-side-of-the-wire" of the tab making contact with the nut, i concluded that a tiny bit of the wire not covered up by the sheathing GROUNDED OUT on the solenoid cover, and in the time it took me to disconnect it, killed the battery DEAD. i felt stupid, but i most likely didnt take out the elec. system too right?.....

so i flipped the tab around and hooked it back up.

then i went to a neighbor who had, a couple weeks prior been walking by, i intro'd myself, we had a chat about the car, the whole story etc.... and he said he had a 6 volt/12 volt charger if i ever needed it.

i came back with it in hand and hooked it up. the amp needle kept going back and forth from full to no amps every couple of seconds, and i think i now know why: it recognized it was on the wrong battery. i happened to glance at the box and in horror saw: 6/2 amp charger FOR 12 VOLT BATTERIES. i yanked the connectors off the battery and almost half-cried half-broke out into a fit of anger at this guy, nice as he was, misreading the charger and maybe destroying my cars ability to run. i thought id really done it this time...

the next day i went to pep boys and bought a 6/12 --> VOLT <-- (hehe) charger.

i charged it back up all the next day and came home from school....AND EVRYTHING WAS FINE. i have never been happier in my life. i thanked whoever was responsible for letting my buick's electrical system not fry itself to death...

BUT all good things must come to an end---the starter wouldnt turn. only the solenoid engaged the gear. i suspected low battery, etc etc until i finally, reluctantly, considered that i had caused damage when i "flipped the tab around and hooked it back up." i noted that the whole threaded shaft moved as i was tightening it, and i heard some crunching or something as i did it. i feared i had just dug myself deeper, but grabebd the end anyway with a vise grip and proceeded to tigten the nut that goes on the shaft first, up against the cover, then hooked up the cable.

so...on friday after school i took off the little cover, and couldnt for the life of me see anything below. i noticed, with the cable off, that thin nut loosened, i could turn the shaft and it moved freely, sticking sometimes. the shop manual gave little insight as to the contents of the solenoid. so i did what i really didnt want to do...take out the starter. it was only two bolts, and the difficulty LIFTING the thing out was only half of my concern. it was just something i had no experience with so my only hope was to just tread softly. i unscrewed and took off the bottom cover, to find what had broken. (im hoping you all know something about starter solenoids so i dont have to describe the entire contents? ) i saw the "head" of the two not-really-bolts that are contacted by the big disc that moves when the arm to move the gear moves toward the front of the car. the one that was loose had broken its side of the plastic piece with the two square holes that these square parts of the "bolts" go into. so, the "head" got pulled into the softer insulation stuff when the nut was tightened, and the disc didnt reach it and make the connection. so i took some scrap 1/16 inch thick plastic from an old battery box of my r/c car (one of those hobby-grade nitro engine ones, so its this black really strong plastic) and made two square "C"s like a square with one side not there. i made them to fit that square part of the "bolt" and put them on, on top of each other, facing each other, to make a strong support. i then held the "head" with a vise grip and re tightened the thin nut not so much to bend the plastic more than a tiny bit, but it wont come undone, pushed the arm, and the disc made contact!!! i happened to notice that the metal strip (yeah a metal strip thats like 3/32 inch thick and 7/16 inch wide, from the other "bolt" right to a threaded shaft underneath it on the starter housing!) was only making contact to that shaft because it was so stiff! the nut on the shaft was many turns loose. so i wrenched that down good, put the starter back in, and tried it again the next day (i went over to a friends house that evening, forgot to try and start it!).....

WOW. i couldnt believe the difference. it spun over so much faster and started after cranking over maybe only two times. the next test was warm. to my amazement again, it cranked over almost as fast, slowing down at the compression points only for a split second now, instead of almost full seconds, and after a few cranks, firing right up. it consistently does this now.

i believe, that the combination of the 2 or 3 loose connections i found were making it crank slow enough, that at a warm start, the condition i said before with the warm air, was enough to slow the starter down to the point where it wasnt firing, just sucking in fuel, and by the time it cranked over a couple times and built up some speed, it was flooded, and sometimes i got lucky and it would fire feebly, and with some throttle, it would sputter to a start. i think this thing might run a little rich or something, it does run rough and stumbly, especially when i let off the gas after revving it. so it floods itself without much trouble i think. but now with optimum cranking speed it has no time to flood.

FAST FORWARD TO: last night 9/29/05. TAAADAAA!!!! the ENTIRE brake system is finally removed! with the worst episode of rust bits falling from the car, particularly this bar that goes across in front of the rear axle and the gas tank cross member i think, every time my arm bumped either of them, and some very hard-to-break-loose connections at the T fitting that splits off the brake line, the rear two wheel cylinders and the last lines are OFF THE CAR FOR GOOD. no lines damaged this time though. hooray!

wow. im really sorry that was a long post. i gotta keep up with this instead from now on. but a very eventful week, partly caused by my stupidity, i shouldve thought about that wire grounding out and put it on the other way initially. however, theres another side. i really am kind of happy i had to pull the starter out. it was a fun experience and i learned a lot, all on my own, just learning as i went. and, loose connections = BAD NEWS. sometimes overheating, and always, poor electricity flow. i think THIS is what my aunt or mom or whoever it was was talking about when they said "you dad always had a tough time starting it" way in the beginning of this saga. and i fixed it, and it starts effortlessly. and i know my dad would be very proud of me for being able to do this. im very proud of it. now some of you might call it a cob-job, but its definitely one of the better cob-jobs out there. that plastic is strong stuff, and if im very careful not to overtighten the nut holding the cable on, the inner one will hold the shaft tight, and itll be like that for a long time. evetually ill get the whole plastic piece, but for now, this is fine. it was also an extremely productive afternoon, and it left me with a very accomplished feeling inside myself.

but even more important: THE FRIGGIN BRAKE SYSTEM IS FINALLY OFF. man what a job that was. im getting stainless lines and fittings and stuff. i DONT want that to ever have to be done again.

whew im tired, can believe i stayed up 45 minutes later than i shouldve to make this post im dead tired. well at least tomorrow's friday. talk to you all tomorrow maybe

Paul

[JohnD1956]

There is a great feeling of satisfaction when you can make a repair with ingenuity. This is what the engineers and designers did. Looked at it and think how can I make that better. And you did it. Congratulations.

Now back to the brakes. Are the old lines useable for patterns for the new lines? Measure 3 times and bend once. Here's a trick you may find helpful. We found that if you start at the most critical end and tape the new line to the old line ( masking tape is okay for this) then you can be sure to make your new lines match the old ones very closely. One problem in making the bends on the new lines is when the orientation starts to diversify up and down instead of just side to side, if you are not careful you'll find that you put the wrong angle on the lines in one direction and that throws off the entire symetry of the new lines.

You also have to fit the new lines occasionally to make sure you have clearance from obstructions. We were doing the front passengers side line on Dougs 89 TType this past weekend. Talk about hard. The original line had to be the first thing installed because it went between the rear lines and the body of the car. Then it went over the hump in the firewall to the pass side, and there was a heat shield on the firewall which covered it from the exhaust. Sounds complicated? It was. We finally decided to do the line in three pieces because there was no possible way ( short of cutting the body off the frame) to get the new line back in the original position without removing all three fuel lines we just put in plus the other two rear brake lines. Since the car is a driver, we just decided to make it work. Then we had quite the task aliging everything so it fell back into the pattern where the heat shield could cover it again.

These things are some PIA.

As for deciding which end is most critical, consider this. Which end is most easily seen, and has the need for the most accurate bend. Usually it is the end by the master cylinder, althoug isn't your master cylinder under the car?

JD

[Guest ZondaC12]

alright first of all id like to mention that i made a trip to auto zone two days ago and looked at brake lines there. i found some neat stuff: theyre already flared, and they already have the connectors on. they range from ~8 inch lengths to 51 inch lengths. now the longest line goes from the stoplight/spiltter thing to the front pass side brake, and that is 85 inches long (measured all of em with a tape measure, matching the bends etc) and the second longest is the one going to the front driver side, at 58 inches. the rest are well under 51 inches. so i was told to uninon two pieces together. but another customer the guy was helping with i guess something else to do with brakes warned that i must use this: a steel compression fitting, or it wont pass inspection. what does this mean to you? i brought the line with me that went from the m/c to the splitter, and the connectors were exactly the same, same threading everything, and the flare looked exactly the same. and i looked at em up close and personal. the tags on the lines say "standard flare".

the biggest reason id like to do this is that the 85-incher was im sure impossible to get out without bending it way out of shape. in fact im positive the fram would have to be taken off the body to do it. it goes above frame rails and sharply turns straight downward etc. right now i just want a functioning system. years from now when i fully restore this, yes ill strive towards having everything original. thats my goal. but now my goal is to get it driveable.

with these, i can go out, by em, and probably install the whole thing this weekend (long Columbus day weekend yes!!!!)

whadya think?

oh and yes the master cylinder IS under the car. no component of the brake system is visible without really getting far under the car

[Guest sixpack2639]

Paul, I don't know what this guy's experience is with repairing brake lines ("warned that i must use this: a steel compression fitting, or it wont pass inspection.") but he is wrong IMHO. Compression fittings are ok for an emergency repair (and I stress EMERGENCY) on brake lines, but NOT long term fix. The best "temporary fix" for brake lines is flared fitting and proper union. IMHO, for a driver, there is nothing wrong with using pre-flared "sticks" of line and unions. Carl

[heidigirl]

so i was told to uninon two pieces together. but another customer the guy was helping with i guess something else to do with brakes warned that i must use this: a steel compression fitting, or it wont pass inspection. what does this mean to you?

i just picked up on your thread today. i must say that it is a real joy to read your entries. anyone reading your chronicle recognizes and shares your excitement/glee with each new success as you bring this ol' girl back to life.

the typical brake tubing is flared and makes a seal by drawing the END of the tube against a receiver in the bottom of the female thread.

a compression fitting system is composed of a ferrule ring, body and tube nut. the tubing is not flared.. instead, the nut and ferrule ring is slipped over the tubing. the ferrule is squeezed and locked onto the tubing when the tube nut is threaded into the body. the seal is made on the tube diameters rather than the ends. the 'body' comes in many different designs, one of which is a union. i don't know if this is necessariy superior to the flared tube design, but if you have to create your own flares, it is much more user friendly.

your DMV can confirm if this type of fitting is mandatory for your application.

[Guest ZondaC12]

thanks for the info. ill just use a normal union then. if indeed i find out later that dmv doesnt like that i could do the other thing he said and hide it in the fram or above something or whatever. but i would think something like this wouldnt be highly scrutinized. i saw a copy of the book nysdmv issues stations for inspection, and theres a spot where it says 1952 and older: one functioning tail light is required. so it seems to me something like this is not gonna be much of an issue.

off-topic: i have found that the weather stripping on the doors does not seal, and the weather stripping on the driver's door is badly eaten away and is all bumpy and round chunks strung together by thin pieces is very common. this is also true of those "wing" vent windows. i looked as best as i could down into the gap between each door and its roll-down window and saw that each window has its own straight seal across the bottom whose ends rub against a seal that runs inside around the "window" of the door. it is this long seal, the one stuck to the glass itself, and the door weatherstripping that i am assuming i want to replace, because i want to actually spray this thing down and get all of the dust and dirt off of it. http://166.82.96.9/xframes.html this is steelerubber.com's page. go there, put 38 in the year, select buick, select body and chassis parts, enter, a list will appear of different categories. go to the door seals and the window seals. there are things like "sash run channel" and things like that and i dont know what everything is. i'd like to know what i need to buy to replace the things aforementioned.

[JohnD1956]

I've seen each repair discussed here in New York. While the system will pass inspection as long as it is not leaking at any point, stick with those factory flared ends and the prescribed unions. Make sure you fit the lines taking into consideration that you have to have access to those unions so you can get a wrench on them to tighten them up. If you bury them above the frame you'll regret it for sure.

The use of the premade lines will mean you'll most likely have more line than the original, so look over the project good and plan in advance where you can hide the extra line. These lines should be 3/16th line, right? If so you can bend these by hand with a firm grip. Try to avoid unbending and then re-bending the lines in the same spot. You may find doing so will crack the line. It may not leak for a few years, but it will be a soft spot and will leak eventually.

Buy extra lines and connectors. It will save you some trips when you need more.

Plus watch out for the lables on the lines. You will have to tear them off and then slide the end over the lable remains. This can sometimes scrape the lable remains and cause some to rip off bunching up under the flare and the fitting. this will definitely leak.

I don't know if others agree, but I would not put any type of sealer on the fittings. But the fittings will have to be tightened down to the tightest you can get them. Keep going till you can go no more. If one strips, replace it. It won't be salvageable. Remember to take care aligning the fittings to the connectors. Keep em straight to avoid crossing or stripping the threads.

This is a lot, but it boils down to: take your time, plan your execution of the lines and make sure everything is tight before putting fluid into the master cylinder.

[Guest ZondaC12]

gotcha. i spent about $64 tonight. i bought two or three of the longest ones they had (51", they had 62" or something like that for 1/4, but these are five yes FIVE-sixteenths. i say that because you thought they were 3/16, im not lying theyre huge at least they seem that way when i looked at those on my cougar and also found that the only size higher at autozone was 3/8"! that must be for big-rigs or something!) like 4 or 5 40-inchers, and a bunch of 12 inch ones and a couple 8 inchers. i also got a $9 bending tool. i saw them and didnt think id ever seen something looking like that in any of my dad's toolboxes. maybe im wrong but better safe than sorry right?

i didnt think to see if they carried flaring tools. you mentioned NAPA has them, im assuming the same one you instructed me to get non-detergent oil at, obviously because thats the one you live near. is that the one i should check for one? my mother very kindly offered to buy me it for the $40 if it turns out they dont rent them out. i could buy it but she insisted.

reason is, i bought all kinds of lengths because its obvious, from the sizes there, that its not all going to match-up. unless i wanted to make all kinds of bends to cram the extra line in and thats wasteful and more likely than not, bad for the system, or at least not beneficial. so, im going to have to cut them and flare them etc. i know what you mean about unbending etc trust me i know that metal will break if you bend it back and forth enough. ill be sure to take care with the labels. although i could probably use a solvent on them or some cleaner, even water will make em fall apart and you can peel em right off.

in terms of hiding stuff, i see your point about inaccessability. the spinning rack they had there with fittings had those "compression fittings" and sure enough on the back, in bold BIG letters: "not for automobile brake systems". they had just normal unions, and they said "for brake systems" but in every size besides 5/16! bummer! the guy was very helpful, he tried to call another one, they had nothing either. so ill have to hunt those down this weekend, as well as get some more connectors because ill be cutting the lines and stuff. so i wont worry as much about hiding stuff, in fact not at all. looks to me like it shouldnt be an issue. and yeah i wont use any sealant, and i think the threads on the spiltter thing are very robust, thats the only original thing ill still be using, so i can really wrench em down.

by the way is there any way i could test that stoplight unit beforehand? and can i get replacement tailight bulbs locally? i cleaned up corroded connections at the rear wires so now the pass. side tailight is getting 6.1 volts instead of 5.3, but the bulb still doesnt work, unless i insert it the wrong way, it fits just enough so the wrong filament lights up. naturally thats the stop-light one, so the normal "running taillight" filament is wrong or something, or just dead but it looks very different from the other side's bulb. so id like to test that all out too.

thanks again as always for your help with this brake system! couldnt do it without you.

[Guest sixpack2639]

NAPA still carries or can order 6 volt bulbs. They ordered me a box of each size bulb my 51 takes but they can order singles too.

I agree with JD about the connections, no teflon tape or sealer is needed as they are flared/tapered seal connections. However, a drop of oil (on the threads only) when putting them together will make them easier to remove later if need be.

[Guest ZondaC12]

yeah that was what i was kind of pondering, you know so i dont have to repeat the PITA that was unscrewing those connectors! though half the problem was the line was rusty underneath the conector. maybe ill coat that first inch or so in liquid electrical tape or rust oleul grip and guard (if youve heard of this stuff before)

theres all kinds of cleaners and compounds and stuff of my dad's, and one of these is stuff called "anti-seize" compound, and it says its for threads in specific. how about it?

[Guest sixpack2639]

Anti-Seize is good for threads, just make sure you only get it on the threads, you don't want to contaminate the system with it. Anti-Seize is also good for exhaust components like clamps and manifold bolts and collector studs.

[JohnD1956]

5/16th is huge for brake systems. These lines can be used for fuel supply as well as brakes, thus the several different sizes. Did you take a piece of the old line with you to AutoZone? I would recommend that you take the smallest piece you have and try to see if it fits into the area where the fitting broke off.

If it is too big ( which I suspect will be the case) then return that stuff and bring the broken fitting with you to size up the new stuff. Most good counter people can recogonize the line dimensions visually, while I still question it everytime I see one. But 5/16 is really way bigger than anything I've seen.

Hey 38 owners, have you done this before, can 5/16th be right for the brake lines?

JD

[Guest ewing]

I did a brake line repair on my 38 and the spare unions I have from the job are 5/16's. That's the size on mine.

[heidigirl]

i bought a flare kit from sears about 3-4 years ago. paid less than 20.00. the beauty of it, was that it WORKED. the pieces from the auto parts houses continued to slip. wouldn't grip the tubing at all.

a tube bender is very useful for tight bends, but for large radii, using anything from a spray can to a wheel rim, bucket, etc. as a form, will make a better looking bend and the tubing won't collapse.

[JohnD1956]

Oh boy. That is some hefty line. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. But I am. 5/16ths it is then...

[Guest ZondaC12]

well finally, two nights ago, i put a dent in the brake system. in less than 3.5 hours, i successfully bent and flared the line going from the master cylinder to the splitter. yup, a whopping 12 inch long line.

simply put, ive never done anything like this before, and i cant believe im doing it. i had to learn to use the bending tool, and when that couldnt make a tight enough bend, learn to use some clamps or my vise to bend it, without crimping it, which i did do (good thing i bought extra pieces of line, i figured id do that). it was just tough because the one bend in the line that takes it through the frame rail hole is like 90 degrees and very sharp. i found i didnt have to bend it quite that tight, which was good because i think it wouldve crimped it! i tried heating the line with a propane torch too, but that never did much except make the line gray-looking. i could almost touch it. for some reason it probably never heated up to more than 200 degrees, maybe i didnt hold it there long enough, of course the connector got hotter than hell! explain that. then it was actually TOO long, i figured it would be too short, but measuring the old line wasnt too accurate even with the flexible tape measure, plus it had broken off on the splitter end if you recall, and i couldnt really guess that well how much broke off. so i had to cut about 1/2 inch off behind the connector at the m/c end, then got the line i had crimped before to practice with the flaring tool. took me 45 mins to learn it! main thing: TURN IT SLOW. just never occured to me that you had to do that and i quickly wrenched it down. now wonder it kept just shoving it through the clamp bar.

literally gotta go, ill answer any new questions this afternoon

[JohnD1956]

You sound like a professional now. 3.5 hrs for 12 inches. Just about the right amount of time I'd say

Those 90 degree turns are hard. The way I do them is to mark the center of the bend, then start there and bend a little then move the bender to both sides of that center bend a little at a time, You can keep going back over the original bends to make them tighter and tighter till you think it will crimp but basically by fanning out further on the line you can accomplish the bend without crimping.

Hang in there. Pretty soon you'll be bending new lines for all your friends cars. May even be a career in it, although don't tell your mom I said so.

JD

[Guest ZondaC12]

haha thanks! it ended up having a couple dents and bumps in that sharpest turn and one or two elsewhere, is that ok? its really solid line. in fact even the original line, rusted and stuff, is probably about as hard to bend as the new stuff.

once i did that one correct flare with the tool, i did a couple more practice runs, cutting off the flare i just made and making a new one, and i was doing em in like 5 minutes each. so im sure the more i do it the better ill get at it. i want badly to get it done. i really hope i get to drive this car this year.

[JohnD1956]

It may be okay to have a few dents and bumps.

When we were doing the fuel lines on Dougs T type, there was this S turn back by the fuel filter. If I recall correctly the entire s turn on the original line was accomplished in a 3 inch span on 3/8th line. We tried like crazy to make that bend but crimped the line and had to start over. On the second one we spaced the bends out but it still had to have 90 degree turns. In the second turn we got an indent in the line. We figured we'd put it in and see if it really impacted flow. It seemed to work okay. Then while throwing away the original line I noticed that had a similar indent, but it seems the factory lessened the indent by twisting the lines when they made the turn. It sort of wrinkled the line to the outside by doing that so inside diameter was not impacted greatly.

Of course this is on a car with an electric fuel pump. so the pump is pressurizing the lines. In your application if you think the fluid can easily be pumped through when stepping on the brake AND easily return when releasing it, then you should be okay. Brake fluid is so thin it really should not be a problem unless the line leaks at those locations.

JD

[Oxnard Montalvo]

After rereading the recent posts of the "Cronicle" it appeared that maybe the issue of single versus double flaring was never really cleared up.

All brake lines should be double flared. That is a given. Especially in a single chamber master cylinder, which is what your Buick uses. This is important. Check this link and tell me that's the way you've been doing them.

[color:\\"red\\"]<span style="font-weight: bold">This is a safety issue.</span>[color:"red"] [color:"blue"]Double Flare

[Glassesguy]

Double flare always on those brake lines. Glad you're using steel tubing as well. Copper hardens and fractures over time. Buick specifically states in your Shop Manual about these two items. Your comment about getting better at flaring is right on. I found the more I did it with the double flair tool the better and easier it became. Sacrifice a line or two and keep at it. That big tubing on these prewar cars surprises many who are used to seeing the thin stuff on modern cars. Keep those posts coming.

[Guest 1964 225 Roadster]

One of the secrets you will figure out to getting a good, leak-proof double flare is to make sure the place where you cut the line is really perfectly square. I even take a file sometimes, and touch it up to be right-on square, before I put it in the flaring tool. If not, the lips of the flare really exaggerate the flaws.

A few MINOR dents or kinks in the line won't matter.

[Guest ZondaC12]

yes not to worry Mr. Montalvo i HAVE been doing double flare! after seeing some pictures, mr. defiore decided they were double. also on my first trip to autozone, i brought with me the m/c line and the flares looked exactly the same. the labels on the new lines said "standard flare" so all of that made me sure.

JUST A NOTE (particularly for mr. defiore): heh, they are NOT all 5/16". only the m/c-->splitter line. all the others are 1/4. this actually caused me to have to return the 7 or so lines and a bunch of unions i bought. i guess i never looked close enough to realize the difference.

tonight i made the line going from the splitter to the ~6" brake hose midway back on the car, and the line that connects to the other end of that hose and goes to the back of the car. in both cases i cut the ends a little long, so i could (and had to) cut the flare i made off because it was imbalanaced, and make a new one. i found i must sit there and hold the little black flaring piece as i hand tighten the clamp at first, otherwise it will not sit perfectly level and that seems to affect it a lot. though again i made the mistake of turning it too fast, and though the line stayed in, the flares wer terrible. i made myself consciously think to go slower and BY GOD it worked!!!! (no way i NEVER wouldve guessed THAT would work! ) i really gotta slow down in general and stop forgetting stuff like that.

nevertheless im getting better and better at flaring, and its real neat to see it come out nice, that i just made a flare just like what the new line came with!

[Guest sixpack2639]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yes not to worry Mr. Montalvo i HAVE been doing double flare! after seeing some pictures, mr. defiore decided they were double. also on my first trip to autozone, i brought with me the m/c line and the flares looked exactly the same. the labels on the new lines said "standard flare" so all of that made me sure.

JUST A NOTE (particularly for mr. defiore): heh, they are NOT all 5/16". only the m/c-->splitter line. all the others are 1/4. this actually caused me to have to return the 7 or so lines and a bunch of unions i bought. i guess i never looked close enough to realize the difference.

tonight i made the line going from the splitter to the ~6" brake hose midway back on the car, and the line that connects to the other end of that hose and goes to the back of the car. in both cases i cut the ends a little long, so i could (and had to) cut the flare i made off because it was imbalanaced, and make a new one. i found i must sit there and hold the little black flaring piece as i hand tighten the clamp at first, otherwise it will not sit perfectly level and that seems to affect it a lot. though again i made the mistake of turning it too fast, and though the line stayed in, the flares wer terrible. i made myself consciously think to go slower and BY GOD it worked!!!! (no way i NEVER wouldve guessed THAT would work! ) [color:\\"red\\"]i really gotta slow down in general and stop forgetting stuff like that.

nevertheless im getting better and better at flaring, and its real neat to see it come out nice, that i just made a flare just like what the new line came with! </div></div>

Paul, ask yourself this question:

Why is it there is never enough time to do it right the first time, but always enough time to redo it when it turns out wrong?

Slow down, think about what you're doing, and you can't go wrong. Carl

[JohnD1956]

I thought 5/16th was too big. I was surprised to hear others confirm it. But the 1/4" line is much more reasonable. That can also be bent by hand mostly. I found the same thing with my double flare tool too. The bigger lines were easier and came out right the first time. The smaller ones were more likely to deform during the process. One thing to check with the tool is to tighten the wingnut closest to the line when it is in the tool first, then tighten the other wing nut. This will help the tool grip the new line.

And as suggested, make sure the line itself is cut square. Plus take your time chamfering the end of the line with the file. If you file too much from one side it will make lopsided flares.

This is so cool that you are getting this done!!!

JD

[Guest ZondaC12]

yeah im kind of noticing that with the chamfer. thats rather annoying, but, i guess you gotta do what you gotta do. i also did notice that i could bend the lines by hand somewhat, good thing theyre just 1/4"!

[JohnD1956]

I'll tell you what! Your Dad and any dad would be exceptionally proud of you. I didn't attempt my first double flare till two years ago. But you are in there doing what has to be done. My hat is off to you for the committment you have shown to this project. And, that being said, how about some new pictures?

Lets see how close you are bending the lines to the originals.

JD

[Guest ZondaC12]

alright time for an update huh?

well i learned a little lesson over the weekend! DONT BUY CHEAP STUFF BY A BRAND YOUVE NEVER HEARD OF. this tool i bought at sears hardware was 16.99 and made by "Performance Tool". really since day 1 the threads on the screw part were sort of binding up, but i figured the force was bending them a little and it would wear in. i even oiled it a little. but that didnt help. it got progressively worse, and on sunday it finally went. i had to REALLY muscle it out of there, and the threads were destroyed, most of them gone. so i went to napa (the one on freeman's bridge rd) and got the $50 one. i also got a mini-tubing cutter so i can get perfectly square cuts now much easier. looks much better built, worked very well, and so now i have, all done, the lines for the rear of the car.

i also have been talking with groselle via email about a few of the pushrods not spinning and not getting much oil when i removed the cover. though much more oil came out of everything when i revved it a little. he said that the system is working good. i also picked up another 6 quarts of oil. today i ordered an oil pan gasket from bob's. kanter didnt have em, and i couldn't find ANY pan gasket for any car. no idea why...anyway this week i will drain the oil, pull the pan, and inspect it and the crankcase and oil pump screen for gunk and garbage, and thoroughly clean it out. then if i can, id like to pull off the cover for the camshaft galley. ill give that a good cleaning too. then i think its same to assume, because of what i have seen in the valvetrain area, that the engine is free of any large chunks of gunk that a motor-flush oil additive would free up and cause to clog any ports. so ill do that afterward, and i think that ought to do it.

[Guest sixpack2639]

Paul, what ever you do, DO NOT put Motor Flush or any other kind of oil "flush" through that motor!!!!!!!!! This includes Kerosene or any other type of solvent that may dissolve any varnish coating the inner workings of the motor. I'm telling you from experience, costly experience. You will ruin the motor!!!! Taking the valve cover off and wiping any "sludge" up without using solvents in the motor is ok and advised. Also, dropping the oil pan and cleaning it out is advisable to make sure nothing is in the bottom of the pan for the oil pump to pick up. You can usually run some bailing wire down through the oil galleys to make sure they're clear, but if you've had the valve cover off and everything is oiling ok with the motor running, and the oil is not pooling on the top of the head (ie. it's draining back to the pan) then you should be ok. Cleaning up the pan, valve cover, and side covers with solvent is ok, but PLEASE DO NOT FLUSH THAT MOTOR!!!!!!

Come on JD, I know you'll back me up on this one!!! Carl

[Guest ZondaC12]

no no dont worry i believe you! if you insist that much, i wont do it. ill just clean stuff out (please explain what a "bailing wire" is so i can go buy one) and then change the oil.

[Guest sixpack2639]

Paul, bailing wire is just a plain wire with many uses. You can buy it in little spools or in great quantities. I always keep a small spool of about .050 size wire in the shop for whatever. It saves hunting down a wire coat hanger and isn't as heavy a wire. Good for temporary fixes as in a broken exhaust hanger. Looks like this stuff...

and it is light/flexible enough to run down through oil passages to make sure they are clear. You can buy it at any hardware store. Carl

[Guest ZondaC12]

gotcha.

[JohnD1956]

So you have brakes now? Did you bleed them yet?

I do agree w/ sixpack on the flush issue, glad to see the post. Does that oil pan come off without a problem? Read up on your oil pump, to make sure you don't have to prime it before replacing the pan. I'm pretty sure you don't, otherwise you could never change the oil. But it should be researched especially if you remove it from the engine for any reason, as you don't want to start it without oil pressure.

JD

[Guest ZondaC12]

nope still no brakes. i wanted to start at least on the line going to the front pass side cyl but this week has been TERRIBLE. no time at all, so much schoolwork. i kinda looked forward to senior year, likely easiest, but i guess this is what you get when youre a smart kid and you have to be in all Honors-level classes. i can handle it fine and get 90's in all of em but it sure does leave me with little time to work on the car. besides im doing college apps, mom bugging me about that and school, "the buick is last priority...etc"

i really feel stupid for not doing more over the summer. i could have done A LOT more, but i spent a lot of time over at my friend's house, outside hanging out and stuff.

this weekend, starting friday, for SURE, ill start that line. im not putting another time expectancy out, because everytime i do that it gets pushed back. so its just done when its done. but its coming well.

as a side note on the engine: i pulled off that cover today, realized DUHHHH its not a cam galley. just the lower part of the pushrods. but i saw little gunk in there, just all coated in oil. most importantly just no changes in plan, (will just clean out crankcase, pan, chg oil etc) one thing i should note is that i dont believe ill be pulling out the pump, its been generally working fine, maybe ill just clean off the screen. if i need to prime it though, on groselle's site he says he shoved vaseline into it, that this works to prime it, and the stuff breaks down and harms nothing after 140 degrees F.

it dawned on me to grease up the fitting on the distributor, you told me to and i forgot, i happened to notice the fitting and did it. during this i noticed what turned out to be that 'octane selector'. it was all the way to "low" i found after wire-brushing off all of the gunk. i checked my shop manual, and according to the octane numbers of that time's gasoline and ours, and its advice "it should only be set as close to low as absolutely necessary, no more". should i change this? i loosened the two bolts and rotated it as if to change it, but put it right back to where i found it, just wanted to see that it could move and wasnt stuck.

[Guest imported_Thriller]

You're only young once...I've heard a rule of thumb of 4 years to restore a car...I've done it somewhat quicker, but it cost a lot because I was paying someone else to do the work. Patience is a virtue.

Be happy that you are learning to study...I got through high school in a small town with marks in the 90s, but I didn't have to expend any effort, so I didn't know how to study...I wound up failing my first exam in university, which was an eye opener as it had never happened before. So, I pulled up my socks, started studying, and married me a physician