my 1938 special: the chronicle

[JohnD1956]

Your Mom is right. Study and get those college apps in. Think of it like this.

If you apply yourself to school, you stand a better chance of getting a better job. Better job means more pay. More pay = more money to play, with the Buick I mean.

About the octane setting, that is an interesting find. I didn't know something like that existed. I image it is a manual advance for the distributor to take advantage of the higher octane fuel. I have never seen anything like this. Maybe some of the other 38 owners have some advise about this.

JD

[Guest ZondaC12]

well i went ahead and tested it myself! even though i thought it could possibly be dangerous, i next thought, "whats the worst that could happen?" either it misfires a ton and runs like you know what or i get engine pinging, and i can quickly shut it down and reset it.

well, i put it all the way over to high, and for one thing what i heard from the exhaust was a much more staccato-type sound, like you could hear each cylinder. but the throttle response was terrible, it seemed to want to die when i tried to rev it. it as also very hard to start when warm. so i put it back, in fact about 1/8" farther towards low than it was before. started up like before (within 1 and 1.5 cranking revolutions, very quickly in other words) and responded extremely well to extra throttle. the sound from the exhaust is once again a constant hum/rumble. i need to make another video to perfectly show what it sounds like. but it is an even smoother hum than before, with just about 0 coughs/sputters/"BLUB" sounds whatever you want to call it. and when i rev it up to maybe 1/4 throttle, it really smooths out. there is NO sputtering at all. "like a singer sewing machine" describes it almost literally. so i think im leaving it alone.

and update on today: i dropped the oil pan. to my not-that-extreme surprise, there was a good helping of sludge! in the big bottom section, probably 1/2"-3/4" thick. scraped it out, cleaned the remains with degreasers and a putty knife, and reinstalled it with the next gasket i ordered. i wish i thought to take pics of the crankshaft, pump, etc. but they looked good. some thin deposits of gunk/grime on some of the cranks, but the cylinder walls looked great, and everything was nice and oily as expected. the pickup screen has a dome shaped metal piece covering most of it, but you can see the very fine screen ok. it was clear, didn't have any junk on it. i then filled it up with the new 6 quarts i bought. im thinking im going to notice some kind of difference with all of this. i mean i would be willing to bet that was a quart, or almost of sludge and almost-sludge-oil and grime in that pan. so a) it ruined the new oil i had first put it, blackening it pretty good within a month of first starting the car. maybe this has something to do with the smoke. maybe because effectively the oil level in the crankcase was really too high, by a whole quart, some was forced by the rings? maybe a crazy idea, im just throwing stuff out there.

but no matter what certainly an engine full of clean, new oil is gonna be a lot better off.

tomorrow, after i get my schoolwork done, im definitely going to make some more progress on the brakes, at least get started on that one long line.

[Guest 1964 225 Roadster]

You may not notice any difference with the clean oil - but the engine will! It is posible that the extra oil, resulting from all the sludge, could contribute to the engine smoking a bit. But it might still smoke, anyway.

The Octate Selector was commonly used on GM cars of the 30's. For instance, my '33 Chevy has it, too. Basically, it is a fine-tuning (or maybe not so fine, really) of the timing. When you move that setting, you are rotating the distributor slightly, thus changing the timing. You won't hurt anything. The idea was, for crummy gas (common in the 30's) you wanted to retard the timing ("spark") a little bit, so the poor burning gas would have a chance to ignite and burn properly. If you got ahold of some good Ethyl (higher octate) gas, the timing could be slightly advanced, thus taking advantage of the better gas and its ability to burn faster and hotter, and you would get slightly better horsepower as a result, too.

Since, by the 30's, cars had automatic vacuum advance on the distributor / timing, you needed to manually adjust this Octane Selector. Guys that are familiar with cars built prior to 1932 or so will be familiar with the "spark advance" lever under the steering wheel, which literally allowed manually adjusting the timing as you drive. Back then, you could simply retard the spark (timing) by moving that lever, if you got crummy gas.

Another example - (I'm thinking of my 1908 Buick) - with today's far better gasoline, we have to run brass era cars extremely advanced versus what it says "in the book" for timing them. Like 20 degrees more advanced. (Because the gas is so much 'better' now, the timing can be far advanced, versus the virtually 'kerosene' they wre using 100 years ago.)

[Guest ZondaC12]

NEW VIDEO!!!

http://rapidshare.de/files/6981653/Buick10-30-05.wmv.html

be sure to scroll to the bottom, click the "FREE" button.

when i move the camera to the air filter side of the car, and the video skips to me starting it, thats because i wanted to get a clip of it starting the way it normally does, very quickly. at the beginning of the video, it took a little more cranking than usual.

[JohnD1956]

That video is too big for my server. I still use dial up and it's over 50 minutes to download.

JD

[Guest 1964 225 Roadster]

Can't make sense of this, can't find how to download the file.

[Guest ZondaC12]

you click "FREE" and at the bottom of the page, it says your waiting time, thats how the site works. i forgot that it was in small print, i thought a message popped up or something. then it will show: "Download: Buick10-30-05.wmv" in rather large lettering

sorry about the huge filesize. ill split it up into two 7-meg pieces. i forgot also that the first video was only 9 megs.

[Guest sixpack2639]

Great video Paul. Your motor sounds like my 51 did when I first got it. You have several lifters in need of adjustment by the sound. Once you get the lifters adjusted properly that miss may go away and it wont smoke as much either. Keep up the good work! Carl

[JohnD1956]

Damn, time for some form of broadband...

JD

[Guest sixpack2639]

JD, check into that high speed DSL. I'm on cable but my mom has Sprint DSL and it's almost as fast as my 3 meg cable setup. Carl

[Guest ZondaC12]

well dont go spending more $$ simply on account of me! id hate to think im causing someone to have to spend mroe $$ just to see a video of my car

this afternoon i should have some time, ill get around to splitting it. it only takes a matter of a few minutes to do.

[JohnD1956]

Good idea Carl. Actually Verizon is advertising a low cost broadband in my area. About 15.00 per month for 768K speeds. That would kick the butt out of my dial up which at best is doing 45K. Plus it beats my current cost per month by $3.00. Only problem is you have to have Verizon local service too. I get very frustrated trying to figure out the various phone plans & that is stopping me from going ahead with this change,

JD

JD

[Guest sixpack2639]

JD, Considerably faster speed, less money, sounds like "Hello Verizon, Good bye Ma Bell" to me! LOL

[Guest ZondaC12]

yeah 768k would be fine.

besides that also might have been a bad time for that site, with roadrunner (which they recently bumped from 3Mbits to 5Mbits) ill get like 500-650 kilobytes/sec downloads from a stie with a good server and not a lot of load on it. right after i read your post, i tried it, and got 140 yes 140 kilobytes/sec the whole time. a lot of people use that site, at that time it could have been peak too or something.

[Guest ZondaC12]

i made two smaller ones, 9MB and 5MB, but it was gonna take like 10 minutes to upload em, so id just rather email it to someone.

JD, ill email you the 14 meg file, trust me it should com in a lot faster. i tried dl'ing the file again just now (3:53 pm) and it was slightly (by about ~20KB/s) better. that site is just slow i think. should emailing it work poorly too, ill email you the smaller files seperately, that has to work.

[JohnD1956]

Hold on, please don't send me any more files like that. It's been two hours and that thing still has not finished. I had to stop it and maybe I'll try running it overnight.

JD

[Guest ZondaC12]

wow so its still too much...

dont bother. let me know when you'd like em sent, then ill send you the smaller two files, in separate messages.

[JohnD1956]

The one thing I hate doing is screwing with the phone service. It's probably just me but all those different rate plans sound like Blah Blah blah, and I just don't want to take the time to try and figure which one is right one for me. But I guess I'll have to get started on doing that. Then the next question will be what to do about e mail. I have had my personal email address for close to 9 years now. Ugghhh!!! I'd rather just futz around with my cars, you know what I'm saying, right?

JD

[Guest sixpack2639]

JD, You could always switch over to a Yahoo email account and never have to change it again since you can access Yahoo anywhere from any server or ISP.

I do know what you mean about dealing with phone companies and their blah blah blah about rates and services. I had one call once and told her I wasn't interested. She says, "you're not interested in saving money"? and I said "Nope, just that much less the wife gets when I kick off"! She hung up on me! LOL

[JohnD1956]

I had a Yahoo mail account for a while but I could never figure out how to work the e mail. For example, I would get e mails but when I went to reply, I would get a form as if I could type in a reply, but for some reason nothing showed up on the screen when I did type. I don't know why this happened.

JD

[Guest sixpack2639]

I had that happen a while back too JD. It must have been a glich in Yahoo mail cause it worked itself out. I haven't had a problem with mine for quite a while now.

Carl

[JohnD1956]

I think I'll try again.

JD

[Guest sixpack2639]

Good idea JD.

Sorry for temporarily hijacking your thread Paul. Hows about an update? Brake lines done? Motor tuned up and purring like a Buick should? What's going on man!? Inquiring minds want to know!!! LOL

[Guest ZondaC12]

yeah...i kinda figured youd ask....

well its kinda on hiatus for a week or two...

my mom wont let me work on it. i was going to work on the brakes late last week, weds night i think. it was just a litte cold outside so i kept the garage door closed thinking she would complain if i didnt. i jacked the front end up, slid the ramps under, lowered it down so the wheels were right in the dip, sitting against the hump in the front. so then i went to jack up the rear end, and had it maybe 1 foot or something higher i dont remember than the front end, and i stepped back to stretch out a little, and the car rolled off the ramps, the jack slipped off the differential and onto the driveshaft, and the car plowed into the garage door at like 4 mph. it bowed the middle section out maybe 3-4 inches, and we had to get my grandfather over to pull it forward a bit (the resistance of the jack wheels with all of that weight on it, plus the squishiness of the mat made it almost unmovable) so it would come off the garage door locking handle (the lip of the bumper was sitting on it) then we lowered it back down.

so, i feel REALLY stupid, and she isnt mad at me (anymore) and the cost to replace the two panels is way less than $1k which my mom thought it would be, and insurance will take care of a lot too. i might pay some too. i should, it was a very stupid mistake and caused a lot of unnecesary damage. besides, i can't work on the car.

murphy overhead door is coming the 21st. i hope by thanksgiving break maybe she'll let me work on it again. the first thing ill do is the two remaining lines.

sorry for the bad news but as they say, "**** happens"

[JohnD1956]

Good thing the door wasn't open. It might have slipped out into the street. Then what?

I never did trust those ramps. But don't feel too stupid. I once put my 56 up on blocks in the back yard for the winter. Got the front on the 6" concrete blocks, raised the rear by the center of the differential, lowered the car onto the rear blocks where it promptly rolled off the front of the blocks because I didn't set the parking brake or chock the wheels.

In my case the jack crushed the gas tank, and the front block on the drivers side damaged the bottom of the fender.

It only took 10 years to get the gas tank repaired but I left the front fender to remind me of how dangerous something so simple could be.

JD

[Guest 1964 225 Roadster]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...murphy OVERHEAD DOOR is coming the 21st... </div></div>

Uh oh. Watch out! These 'Overhead Door' guys might be related to the dreaded "Overhead Engine" dude!!!!

[Guest sixpack2639]

Paul, if you learned something from your mistake then the stupid part can be overlooked (somewhat). At least no one was hurt. I'd say it's time to invest in 4 jack stands so you can get her in the air properly. Of course that is after Mom's garage door is paid for! I don't particularly trust those ramps either. I do own a set and use them, but not to replace jack stands to get the whole car in the air. And trust me, mom couldn't give a rip about the garage door, she's mad at the fact you could have been hurt! Give her time to cool off and show her you've learned a valuable lesson. Carl

[Guest ZondaC12]

yes no one was hurt and thats what matters most. i actually have four jackstands but usually when i'd say "im gonna go out and jack the buick up" shed roll her eyes and go "why do you have to do that NOW?" youre gonna get hurt! put something like those ramps underneath the wheels when its up on the jackstands! so it seemed she didnt trust jackstands.... (two are rated for 6,000 lb each, and the other two for 10,000 lb each) so i decided that night that she might be a little happier when she came out to check on me like usual if it was on the ramps.

i think theyre more for being on pavement where theyll dig in a little so you can drive onto them, and put a rear parking brake on. but then they sink right into the pavement, at least they would on our driveway. and my mom would have a royal fit.

@ 1964... HAHA thanks for adding some lightheartedness to this!!!

[Guest 1964 225 Roadster]

I think maybe I just finally figured something out, that I have been wondering about.

"ZondaC12" seemed like an odd name, but I have had an inspired (for me) thought. Are you refering to the Pagani Zonda V-12 supercar? If so, that still leaves the "C" to explain...

[Guest ZondaC12]

HAHA look at that! i KNEW someone was going to ask at some point.

since i first saw it when it came out in 2000 i think, i have always loved the Pagani Zonda C12, yes. so i use that screen name for almost anything. the model name is "Zonda C12". if i had a choice of any supercar i wanted it would be that one. it'll do well over 200mph and is drop-dead gorgeous.

the one car i like better is the Zonda C12 S 7.3. this has a Mercedes Benz 7.3L V12, as opposed to the smaller one in the base model, with 6L, and 394 hp. the S makes a whopping 550 yes 550 horsepower.

the base one is good for ~185 mph, the S will go 220.

[Guest 1964 225 Roadster]

Carbon Fiber chassis, 0-60 at 3.7 seconds. They say the build quality puts Ferarri to shame.

This year's (2006) Mercedes / AMG V-12 is available in the Zonda in two tune levels, the higher one now approaching 600 hp. They are working on a U.S. version, and hope to sell it here by mid-'06. Expected price is $600,000 to $650,000.

I never saw it named with the "C," I guess.

You have nice taste! But come on- "Wouldn't you really rather have a ('38) Buick?"

[JohnD1956]

Whats the top speed on your 38 then? 90 MPH, isn't it? Still 25 MPH faster than 99% of the USA roads I suppose.

But did you see the post in the "general" forum about the 48 Super with an aftermarket Turbo-charger? I bet that puts a strain on the ole clutch and rear.

Still I wonder if the Turbo Charger gives you more top end or just quicker top end???

JD

[Guest ZondaC12]

if given a choice between a '38 (even MY '38, in its present conditon) at this point in my life i would say the '38. four years ago it would've been a tough decision, it still kinda is, both a very unique cars. but i love antiques enough that id definitely take the 38.

JD - yup i think about 90---with the friggin thing winding out at a BLAZING 4300ish rpm. no but seriously that the maximum of the engine most likely and i cant imagine its good for it, or any of the drivetrain. though i dont know for sure, i mean the 38 century was claimed very publicly to be good for 100mph, hence its name, so i think drivetrain etc would be ok, its just that with the 4.4 rear end instead of the 3.9 on the century it would be spinning much faster.

that turbo sounds like a cool idea! every once in awhile i see something about a performance mod for one of these old engines, i love reading about them. i'll bet the engines have no problems handling some mods, strong as they are. but yes the clutch i know for sure wouldn't take that too well, although if you drive it correctly maybe youd be ok....http://www.harwoodperformance.bizland.com/1941buick/Editorial%2032.htm

if you don't go to MH's site too frequently (well i dont either actually) thats a recent "Spinning my tires". a very good read as are all of them. but it points out something i found interesting--that the clutch is quite a weakpoint on these cars. ive always been told these things are bulletproof, for example the trans. but i guess a clutch is a totally different thing. the article says to let the clutch out JUST above idle and not slowly either, to let the torque of these old engines get the car moving then get on the gas.

so i would think with that turbo '48, maybe youre not gonna chirp any tires (i would NEVER do that anyway even if it had the power and a bomb-proof clutch and driveline) or maybe not even get a real good start right off the line, but you can feather the gas, let out the clutch, and then NAIL it, and youll probably take off pretty quick overall and not kill your clutch.

[Guest ZondaC12]

well today i finally am allowed to work on the buick again!!!

i decided to try adjusting the valve lash to get rid of some valve noise and more importantly get those pushrods to spin.

my shop manual said it was to be at .015, and fortunately i have a feeler gauge, not too surprising knowing my dad.

i attempted to slide it into the gaps of some arms that were in the right position, three of them up near the front end of the engine in fact, for accuracy, and it just fit into all of them. so i knew what i was doing was right. i attempted to set the 2nd, 4th, and 6th valves from the firewall end, because those, in addition to some more at the other end, were the ones with a non-spinning pushrod. (i should note that i did this with the engine off, the coil wire pulled, and occassionally having to crank the engine a little) the result? more valve noise. i brought the car back into the garage immediately and shut it off, worried that this was a problem. i did a search on this forum and found a recent post about a '48 with valve noise, and this post by tommy1927 was reassuring:

tappy, tappy, tappy, is better then having them to tight.

You have to adjusted them while the car is running, at the slowest idle possible. This is done by taking the hood off and sitting your [@!#!$] on the raditior. One leg on both sides of the engine, and one guy to hold the wrench and one to hold the feller gauge.

It's the same two wrenches from my 1927 to 1950.

You most likley made them to lose.

No hydro lifters in 1948.

Remember to warn the engine before adjusting. The 1950 has a diffrent setting for intake and exhaust valves, so look at the manifold to see which is which.

im not sure about all this, if i can do it with the engine running or not. is it absolutely necessary? is it likely that i wont get rid of my problem without doing it with the engine running? if it is, then ill see if i can find someone to help me do it, and ill do it. tomorrow ill see how low i can get the idle. i would still imagine it has to be very hard to get a wrench to stay on the nut with it moving up and down constantly, but, i gotta get this right, so be honest and if doing it without the engine running is "just suqeaking by" then please tell me that. "just squeaking by" isnt good enough. well it shouldnt be good enough for me, sometimes i let it be good enough, and i need to do that a lot less.

[JohnD1956]

Keep in mind that this is valve train noise, not valve noise. The tappy sound is probably normal. Did you have the valve cover on with the hood closed before deciding it was making more noise? I would check that out before going too bonkers on this.

Also, I think Tommy was joking about pulling the hood and sitting on the radiator. Talk about danger to unreplaceable parts. I don't care how slow an idle you get the fan blade will still be spinning. But I understand you do have to do this with the engine running. It's been years since I did one and once you do the first you'll see that the rocker arm does not deviate so much as to make it impossible to keep the wrench on it while the engine is running.

Also as to the noise, think of it this way. What you are actually doing is creating a gap between the valve and the rocker. That in turn makes a place for metal to metal contact and a ping. If you don't hear that ping ( tap) then you will risk having the valve left partially open while the engine is running leading to backfire at the carb and the exhaust.

I'd recommend you live with the tap noise, it's part of what makes the 38 so special....

JD

[Guest ZondaC12]

actually that was one of the things i envisioned when i first was pondering getting the car running, that it would sound like that. i just thought that was bad for the car. i also want those pushrods to spin, or do you think it will be okay? all of the ones that dont spin will move if i push it with my finger as its running, they just dont go on their own. some rock back and forth like they want to spin but dont quite get there. is there another solution? do i need to replace the rods? are they expensive, is it easy to replace them? ill without a doubt have it driveable by spring, and i want to drive it then, without destroying stuff or causing a lot of wear. someone said here that as long as im just running it as i am now it wont do it any harm that they dont spin. but as i said it wont stay that way. im going to drive it eventually.

BTW i had the valvetrain exposed, etc, and could tell there was more noise, which i agree is definitely the rod tips hitting the valve stems.

i figured tommy was joking a little but how much was a joke i wasnt sure. thanks for pointing that out, heh. i laughed as i read "the fan IS still spinning".

so ill just set em all to .015 with it running as best as i can, and that should be alright?

oh i forgot to mention, we cant come to that party out in cobleskill, whoever was hosting it. i think it was you who sent me the message with the invitation, im assuming you're in more frequent contact with them? or am i completely mistaken? ill check the email, if their email address is there should i just let them know? just want to say thanks but no thanks, it is a bit far and i believe we actually have a commitment that day, an engagement party for my cousin. i would very much love to be able to go, and surely within this next year ill attend more of the chapter meetings and parties etc to the best of my ability. and on that note, i think one of those "upstate update" things said some thing about a chapter dues system being set up. let me know when i should send them in, and to whom.

[JohnD1956]

I agree, just set them to the spec recommended as best you can.

I don't know about those pushrods that don't rotate. Do you know what makes them rotate? Is it the lifter that rotates or just the pushrod? I imagine if there is no rotation there is a chance they have worn a seat right into the lifter. It might actually require replacing the lifters to get them to rotate again. Unfortunately to get the pushrods out to check them you'll have to remove the rocker arm. But there are no gaskets there as far as I know so it's not a hard job.

If you do pull the push rods out, be sure to put them back into the same port they came from. But I wonder if you did pull them out, can you then reinsert them upside down and get the rotation effect? It really depeneds on how the ends are made. I've seen pushrods with small ball bearings in each end and they were indeed omnidirectional. But going back to 38, and with nothing from personal experience, the pushrods may be cast on the ends ,and may only go in one way. This may be worth a try.

Can you get that camshaft cover off and see the lifters in there? Compare one that you know rotates with one that doesn't rotate. Make sure the top surface of the lifters are identical with no major wear that prevents the rotation.

The next Upstate Update will be out shortly. That will have directions on the chapter and how the dues etc will work. I'll let Kne and susan know you cannot make the holiday partyu.

I look forward to when you can join in the meetings and such. It will be great to see the car.

PS: how's the brakes coming along?

JD

[Guest ZondaC12]

the pushrods and the outer-race-of-a-bearing-looking-thing that i think is part of the pushrod are what spins, as far as i can see. i would think that the cam lobes make them turn, maybe one side of the lobe is higher or something, and pushes one side of the lifter surface around which then moves the rods. or maybe thats happening because of wear and it shouldnt normally happen. (hint hint fellow 38 owners that might know!!! hehe) i guess i didnt ever tell you that i pulled off that cover, and all i saw was the lower section of the pushrods. i only saw the camshaft when i replaced the oil pan gasket.

as for the brakes..........

progress has been made! i jacked the car back up today, and this evening, i worked on making a line for the splitter-->pass side front wheel. i completed this line, it went well, even though i thought it would be a huge PITA. it is funny because it is the first line installed on the car, but then again because i made it as i went, not using an original line. so im sure the other side will be just fine too. then i think i will actually buy new brake hoses for the front wheels, i might as well. dont know why i didnt before. i guess because i was alreay spending $300+ on the mas. cyl. and wheel cyl.s, felt like alot. but that and of course the small hose in the rear of the car MUST be replaced, its all eaten away. then ill install the rest of the lines, and cylinders and what a great day that will be.

[JohnD1956]

Yes, we'll need some 38 owners who know the answer to this question. Maybe they can then tell if the ones that don'e spin are installed upside down.

Good work on the brakes. It makes a lot of sense to change out the flex lines now too. Glad your doing it.

JD

[Guest ZondaC12]

well if they dont come (actually no matter what) ill pm someone like Ox or gsw38 or ask the prewar forum. i think i remember you suggesting i do that but i never actually did it.