my 1938 special: the chronicle

[Guest ZondaC12]

great thanks for the tip! ill be ordering one real soon (as soon as mom's credit card is refreshed or whatever she said, for this month). which she said is like early next week.

sometime this week or maybe next weekend i think i might take the car up the street and back or maybe even around the loop in my neighborhood.

[JohnD1956]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the only hitch was two leaks... however both were about a tiny drop or two's worth on the threads...and i think ive stopped the leaks. even if they continue theyll be very small so much that it might actually make a drop on the ground, what once a month? i dont mind that... heres the cause: ill admit some of the flares i made ... were sub-par. that is such a painful experience, i would often get frustrated and settle for a not-quite perfect flare, in fact most of them werent perfect. however i could tap em with a hammer and flatten the top a little to get it even, and file off the sides to get em round, </div></div>

Paul, your efforts and enthusiasm have paid you rewards. I dare say many people would not venture to try this job, and you have pulled it off...almost...

I would like to hear other's opinions on the following, lest I am being too cautious:

If that system leaks, even a drop once a month, you MUST fix it. Leakage will result in air bubbles. Air bubbles will result in mushy or no brakes. I feel that you would never forgive yourself if in a panic stop the brakes faded to the floor and you crashed the car. <span style="font-weight: bold">Don't take a chance with the brakes.</span> Thats a lot of metal in that car, and besides the potential for a wreck, you run the risk of harming others too.

As for filing a double flare to fit, you may want to rethink those fitting as well. The double flare is a safety factor in that it provides additional strength to the junction. Filing of the same could have compromised that.

I am sure the car is safe enough to drive around the neighborhood a few times as it is, but this area of repair is of utmost importance to be correct before doing any long range driving.

[Guest ZondaC12]

i completely agree, i WOULD never forgive myself, and i was thinking that throughout the process. i considered going back and redoing them as i began to install them. it was just so much work i couldnt bring myself to try. if its any good news, none were filed down a real significant amount, they usually were slightly off, and in the end the flares did look thick and strong, just maybe not the exact right shape. from the guides i read it seemed imperative that flares be <span style="font-weight: bold">exactly</span> like they pictured, and i took this very seriously. im not sure why my success rate with flaring was so low. maybe its just one of those things i cant do right.

i will keep a sharp eye on every fitting. i have lots of fresh cardboard underneath the car, and if any leaks onto the few spots of open garage floor, ill see it too, the stuff is a dark violet color, possibly made that way for this purpose. any one drop i see ill investigate.

again like you said we'll see what others will say, but if it doesnt conform to their standards either, ill have to take some action indeed. <span style="font-weight: bold">I</span> am NOT removing anything, at least not myself. ill pay a shop to do it or something. i am thankful the filling and bleeding was a such a cakewalk, after the hell i went through making those lines. i do not intend to experience that again. i am sorry if i sound like a quitter or something, but thats how i feel, as i invested lots of time and effort into that. looking back i suppose i could have bought lots of different sizes from Advance, a few more unions maybe, and bent them up roughly and i wouldve worked only with factory-made ends. but doing it myself seemed easy enough, from what i had read...

[JohnD1956]

Neither I , nor anyone else would consider you a quitter. Quite the opposite is true I think. I have a few suggestions if you find lines have to be replaced again. But I wouldn't worry about it till the spring. Like you said , monitor the junctions. And lets see what others say.

By the way, I entered a post on the pre-war forum for you. I think you need a clearer picture of the problem area as identified.

JD

[Guest 1938McLaughlin]

I agree with the others, no drips or leakage is the way to be.

I suspect the difficulty you had in making the flares was more the fault of the tool than you. I recently wore out my first flare tool bought 15+ years ago. Not all of my flares were usable. Forced to buy a new flare tool, I took the advise of my rep at the parts store and bought a better quality tool. What a difference, much more consistent flares. I think now I'm throwing away tubing mostly because I made it the wrong length (too short) or bent the wrong shape.

Definately no filing!

I know it can be a miserable job, but I think when accomplished you'll be much happier if you do it yourself.

[Guest ZondaC12]

well heres another thing that irritated me throughout the whole process: the first flaring tool i bought was made by "Performance Tool", and was from Sears Hardware. It was $16 and it didnt take a week for one of the two big bolts that old the two piece tubing holder BROKE IN HALF. so i went to NAPA and bought a $50 one by (i forget who the brand was), and that seemed to work pretty good but then one of the big bolts for that one BROKE ALSO. i really dont think i was tightening either of them up TOO tight, i dont think i was asking for more than what should be expected of a normal bolt. so i found bolts in my house that were the right size and replaced those of the old tool's two piece bar and used that with the other pieces of the new tool. (the bolts on the new one cannot be replaced, theyre like welded to a bead at the end of it which is between two holes, it cannot be removed)

so what, another AGAIN? am i just unlucky?

[Guest 1938McLaughlin]

The tool I got was Napa part # T345 (was about $120 Cdn)

Weatherhead I believe is the brand. Pic attached.

I'll still blame your tool, but there is a slight possibility that you're trying to tighthen it just a bit too much, which could also lead to the distorted flares.

From my experience having the right amount of tubing sticking out of the tool to start is important.

Too much tubing - results in flare shifting sideways/offcenter/ being distorted.

Too little tubing - results in flare not forming correctly at all. head too small not much of a lip.

- typically the base of the flare tool insert is used to gauge amount of tubing to protrude.

With a double flare (like used on the brake system) the second step, folding the inner lip, you do NOT want to compress this real hard, just enough to fold it in fully. The hard compression occurs when installed, allows it to form better to the mating fitting ...less likely to leak.

Thats my theory.

[Guest ZondaC12]

WOW thats way beefier and i like that design a lot better. i see what youre talking about with the amount of protruding tubing. i think this caused a problem a lot for me, because i had to get the two bars to be exactly lined up and the teeth in one would grab the tubing and slide it, messing up the length, id have to reset it, etc big PITA, hard to get it right.

[Oxnard Montalvo]

No leaks are acceptable. Crank them down and if they still leak you may have to redo them.

Does the emergency brake work? Gotta have it.

Don't get discouraged, you're doing a fine job.

"The measure of success is not whether you have a tough problem to deal with, but whether it is the same problem you had last year."

John Foster Dulles

[Guest imported_MrEarl]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't get discouraged, you're doing a fine job.

John Foster Dulles </div></div>

I second that emotion....

Bending brake tubing and flaring ends during the brake restoration of one of my 54's was the most trying things I've ever done. One of the tubes had about a 350 degree bend within an inch and a half of where it is flared and mounts to the booster. the other end had several angles that had to be just right to get that sharp bend just right. I had tried unsucessfully several times and at one point got so p'd off that I had litterally wrapped the tubing around my neck. I even got it completely bent and flared one time, went to mount it and come to the realization that I had forgotten to put the nut on before flaring it. Every time I would finish I would end up with a leak. I finally called a friend over to look at it. He crawled up under the car and said my god son this would be tough for me and I've been bending tubing for 40 years. He asked to see the tool I was using and when I showed it to him he said no friggin wonder.He let me borrow his tool which looked very similar to the one 38 McLaughlin has and I got it to seal up the first time. So just know that most of us have gone through the same thing you are and that just as soon as you get it figured out you'll be done with it.Until next time you have to tackle it and you have to go through the learning curve all over again...That's what the old car hobby is all about...challenges

hang in there Paul

[Guest ZondaC12]

thanks for the encouraging remarks!

however i went to xe.com and 120 CDN is $100 U.S. this just seems like a HUGE waste if i buy one because ive already spent almost $70 so far trying to get a good tool. but if i absolutely have to remove a line(s) i may just do this if i cant get my tool to work well on some practice lines. again, line removal is a last resort, ill try continuing to wrench em down first before i do that.

[old-tank]

I hate flare fittings! Even new stuff is hard to connect without cross threading...that brings me to my first point. If they are cross threaded they will not tighten to be leak free. Next point use the correct tools; for this you need flare nut wrenchs, sometimes called line wrenches. The wrenches look like a six point box end with and open front. If you use the correct tool just tighten until your knuckles turn white, then try for another 1/4 turn.

I hate flare fittings!

Willie

[Guest ZondaC12]

oohhhhh yeeeaaahhhh....! NOW i know what those things are for! theres a few of em in my dad's tool box. i see, so it wont just slip and round the nut off. a--ha! will do. dont worry, none of them are cross threaded, ive cross threaded stuff before and you just know it when youve done it. almost none of them needed a lot of force to hold them there and for the threads to catch. but a good idea on your part though.

[Guest ZondaC12]

Well after monitoring the system for a couple days, and daily coming out and pumping the pedal a few times nice and hard to about half way down, which is where it finishes firming up and doesnt move any further, then going under the car with the line wrenches, and really cranking those fittings down, tonight I looked at the T splitter in the rear and the stoplight switch splitter, and I cannot see any new developments of fluid, and I would know if I saw them, nice shiny spots with a drip of fluid hanging off the threads or farther down on the line itself, etc. The pedal still FIRMS up right at the middle, so personally I'm convinced its sealed up. I really yanked on those things hard, I would think theyre tight enough, lol. Whew, what a relief.

I've also been playing around with the engine a little, trying to re adjust valves to get rid of some noise. Its done this since I first adjusted em: You feather the gas to a little above idle, and you get TOCK----TOCK---TOCK-TOCKTOCKTOCK and then it smoothes out, and it sounds like just a couple rockers or something. Notable is that with the valve cover on, this is very noticeable in the interior, through the firewall. So I went through them all friday afternoon and into the evening, with not much luck, and some ended up being really tight when I went to re-check them with the feeler gauge. Maybe it was just me, but I adjusted the Octane Selector, and after doing that the tapping of the ones that were loudest got louder. I adjusted this from "Low" on the right, over to "High" on the left. I finally looked up some tutorials on timing, etc, and I have determined that High is more advanced, the shop manual says it is for <span style="font-style: italic">Higher</span> octane fuels, so more resistnace to burn, need to start combustion sooner for complete burning by the time power stoke begins. I would rev the car up and a lot of smoke would come out the exhaust, popping would occur, stumbling, and it just sounded terrible, it couldnt "clear its throat" that kind of thing. The shop manual says "for best economy do not set it towards low any more than absloutely necessary". I had it set all the way over at low because awhile back when it was at high the engine was hard to start when warm and died off in response to throttle. Unfortunately the hard to start when warm came back when i was restarting to test my valve adjustments last night, but it sounded SO nice when i revved it up, you heard the individual cylinders loud and clear and it was just great. So I'm keeping it there, maybe ill run it again within the next few days to see if its still hard to start. I probably should replace the spark plugs, cap, rotor, wires too, but if this little thingy made that much difference it must be important, right?

So this morning, using the characteristics, easiness of the feeler gauge's fitting into the gaps I knew were right because I could tell they sounded good and quiet last night, I went through and set all of the others, yes with the engine cold and not run yet today. I backed the car out about 3 feet sticking out of the garage, and ran it for about 5 minutes. The engine obviously didnt warm up, but the valves were much quieter and no pronounced "tock"-ing occured. But then it usually has occured once the engine is warm, and the noise is less when it is first started. I can't figure this out, i'll have to warm the car up fully the next time i run it and see what happens. All I know is that I've got the gaps correct, so if theres noise it can only mean that gap is a little big, and ive gotta get myself to accept that that is what the engine is going to do, and its not killing itself by doing that.

So, all in all, the car is squared away, ready to drive when "the boss" will let me register and insure the thing. Maybe I sound a tad (or more) too worried about this valvetrain business, but man I just dont like that noise, especially because, I'm pretty sure, it sounds like 1-3 rockers are making it, and it happens less when you rev it up high and fast than when you feather it, and only to an rpm a little bit faster than idle. I worry about everything because I don't want anything to happen to this engine. It's all original, and for that reason and for $$ I don't want to rebuild anything because of rapid catastrophic wear.

[JohnD1956]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> So, all in all, the car is squared away, ready to drive when "the boss" will let me register and insure the thing. </div></div>

It will be great to see it on the road. I agree. If you have no fluid drips from the brake lines and you can keep constant pressure on the brake pedal with no fading to the floorboards, then let it ride. Time will tell if you have the valves correct.

What's next on your list?

JD

[Guest ZondaC12]

first of all id like to say lets continue this discussion in the thread i made in the Pre War forum ( "continuation of my 1938 special thread" )

i emailed Peter Gariepy and he said somehow this thread found its way into Post War, and said i should just start a new one in Pre War. it is where it belongs, after all, and that way the people (esp other '38 owners) who frequent that forum will see it.

but, ill answer your question--next on my list are two things i can get done fairly easily and plan to do within the next two weeks or so:

1) remove the old tires and replace them with the whitewalls Mr. Mattot gave me

2) swap the fenders with the original, pristine ones sitting in my grandparents' attic.

i also gotta finish wirebrushing off the top surfaces of the right front grille

(as you face the car). i also would like to do the same for the rust on those side vents, that detracts from the beauty of the front of the car so much! i have to figure out how they come off though...

i have greased up all the grease fittings on the front end, and those for the pedals, and this "equalizer shaft" on the driver side of the engine crankcase, over near the left engine bay wall. not sure what it does, oughta look it up in my shop manual. but im sure it helped to grease that up too, needed A LOT before any came out of the end outlets. on the same note, i should probably drain, flush, and refill the rear end and trans oil, before i do any significant, higher speed driving.