Bad Champion Spark Plug Experience?

[scott12180]

I put a brand new set of Champion W-18 spark plugs into my 1926 Packard.

The engine started hard, idled somewhat roughly, but when I got onto the street, there was a severe intermittant miss on several cylinders. After 1/2 mile I got back home and found that at least four of the eight were firing irregularly (fouled, and after only 1/2 mile!) I replaced all the new Champions with my old set of Blue Crown Huskies (same heat range) and the car ran just fine -- smooth and powerful. Why??

I had this problem years ago on a Franklin, except I did not think it was due to spark plugs. After years of fiddling, I finally gave up in frustration. A spark plug is a simple enough device, isn't it? Now I believe that there's something about modern spark plugs that may not allow them to work on old ignition systems. (The Franklin had a magneto) Is there? Do modern plugs require voltages or currents far in excess of what antique ignition systems can produce?

Anyone else have a bad experience with moden spark plugs? Just Champions? Or what?

--Scott

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I presently have Champion W-14s in my '29, with no problems.

I got them about 3 years ago. If I remember correctly the W-18 is a hotter plug than the W-14, but not sure about that.

I think it had W-18s in it when I got the car, and it ran okay with them.

My spare engine has Champion W-18s and I was told it was running good when pulled from car.

Do you have an Ohm-meter to measure the internal resistance of the plugs and compare them? Some of them may have been assembled incorrectly. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

BOTH of u have answered YOUR OWN QUESTIONS!!!! Its this simple: Get AC plugs for the engine. OR the Blue Crowns if u can find them (i see them on eBay). I have preached this for decades and for decades it has rang true nearly 80% of the time: FORGET CHAMPION, NGK, Bosch, Lucas or anything else.

THE PEOBLEM is the numbering system and u can not trust a numbering system that changes every time i change my socks. The AC numbering system has remained unchanged for nearly 3 decades that i know of. I have had nothing but trouble out of champions. Bosch is garbage. JUST GET AC's or Autolite (motorvator). Problem solved.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I don't think I've ever seen an AC equivalent of the W-14 or W-18 for sale? Do you happen to know the AC number and where it is being sold? Someone at parts store told me new AC plugs in that size were no longer available? It's a large 7/8" thread size.

I found a set of W-14s on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS...ssPageName=WDVW

Scott, I think I will bid, if you don't want them?

[joe kastellic]

I agree that I have always had problems with champion plugs, one of the first things I did when I got my car I changed the champion plugs and installed Autolite plugs I have noticed that once they become gas fouled they never clean up and fire right I have seen this time and time again over the years, especially when I have a car on my ignition scope. Joe

[Guest imported_Speedster]

But, if Champions are the only ones available, 'What ya Gonna Do'?

I've been searching the Internet extensively and have only been able to find Champions in that size. Trying to find some good ones for sale that have been stashed away for 75 years, in somebody's garage, is not going to be easy. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Like I said, I have Not had any problems with the Champion W-14 or W-18, but the W-14s seem to do a little better in my '29 (idles a little smoother after getting hot). <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Or it may have been that they were just cleaner, I'm not sure. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

From AC Spark Plug book 41A-100 Jan 1976:

W10 = C73, W14=C75, W18 = C77L, W20=C77.

The C7x plug identification is for AC

C = Commercial (possibly a colder type plug???)

7=7/8 thread with 15/16 hex

x = heat range 3 coldest thru 7 hottest

Altho my book only indicates prefix "C" for the 7/8 plugs there is a 78S very hot moderate long reach.

GET AN AC BOOK!!!

There is probably plug conversion web site somewhere too. The one i used and posted to 55-56 xref no longer works.

[Guest]

Champion sprk plugs were made in my old home town of Windsor, Ontario and I swore by them for many years and they always worked as well as any. I have since had a few bad experiences with them and will no longer buy them. My Packard uses the little 10MM plugs and these I buy whenever I can find them and most are Champions however. I have not had a problem with the old plugs just the newer ones. In my modern cars I now use either NGK or the Canadian Tire equivalent made by NGK with success. Bosch comes a close second IMO.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

PackardV8,

Thanks for the AC data. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I did a quick Internet search for those numbers, for sale, with No Joy. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

But I did find a good reference chart:

(some of the numbers are different, tho?)

http://www.antiquetractors.com/Research/Spark_Plug_List.htm

[52deluxe]

were they resistor plugs? i had no end of troubles with fouling till i switched to lawn mower plugs <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> got same heat range and no more fowling 98cents each too

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I don't think anyone made a resistor type plug in the 7/8" size.

But measureing the internal resistance of plugs IS Very important, in determining their condition.

[scott12180]

When I bought the Champion W-18's at my local NAPA store, they did have one AC plug -- 7/8" in the same heat range. I bought the Champions simply because they had them in stock. Perhaps I should have them order seven more AC's.

--Scott

[scott12180]

A well respected friend has used Hastings spark plugs with good results. Are they still being manufactured? Anyone have a source, if so?

--Scott

[Guest imported_Speedster]

If they can find a complete set, Please let us know the AC number (they have) and how they compare. I couldn't find any data on Hastings plugs, in that size.

I called O'Reilly and they supposedly have an equivalent in Autolite but they show a different number (#295, Not T-7), so I'm not sure about them yet. (could Not get ACs)

The website above also has 10, 14 and 18mm plug number data.

Did you notice the big difference in recommended Torque ?

[joe kastellic]

Champion plugs at one time were a good plug, but from what I understand the company went thru a period of bad management , and was bought and sold and this resulted in a bad plug in the market place, this happened about mid 1970's. I had to use them at one time in a large fleet because we had a bid contract with a parts vendor as a cost saving measure, but almost imediately we stared to have many plug related problems and increased vehicle down-time. Joe

[WCraigH]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Champion plugs at one time were a good plug, but from what I understand the company went thru a period of bad management , and was bought and sold and this resulted in a bad plug in the market place, this happened about mid 1970's. </div></div>

When Packard used them, they were good enough for this:

Never So Far So Fast advert

Bottom half of ad

From May 1955 Life magazine.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

refering to the online chart and my AC book i am getting worried that the "W" series Champion as well as the AC plugs i crossed into them is a commercial plug and THEREFORE a COLD plug. NOT good for cold running engines as such a prewar Packard engine most likely is.

I am not sure where posters in this thread came up with the "W" series for Packard application of Champion but i'm guessing its wrong OR the Post war Champion numbering system is not in sync with prewar (if u got it from an old packard reference). AGAIN the problem in dealing with nearly ALL plug manufactureers (EXCEPT AC) is that over a period of 5 to 10 years their numbering systems become as random and unpredictible as menopausal ovulation.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Back in the 50's and 60's (somewhat before my time) the Champions weere probably excellent plugs. Howeever we can be sure that when Packard went to Champion (or any other company) and told them about Packard marathon run that Champion turned back flips and stood on their head and anything else it took to qualify any special hand handled plugs supplied for that particular event.

As for the statement in the ad about "...just like the plugs at your local parts store..." well lets face it, manufacturers are just like women and children: they have been known to tell lies.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Scott, I was wondering if you checked the plug Gap?

One set that I have came with gap set at .035 (Not Good) and my '29 service card calls for gap of .025. I set all mine to .025, for the '29 engines.

PackardV8, you may be correct about them being made differently. I've never had any vintage plugs to compare them. The 'W' series is from a Spec Card, that I think was produced by Packard, tho. When dealing with 70 to 80 year old cars, you sometimes have to make do with what's available. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

[scott12180]

I gapped them all myself to 0.031", as recommended by my owner's manual. Lower rpm likes a bigger gap, and since I run an overdrive, the engine never revvs that much.

Here's something else:

I had a very odd experience with this set of plugs. One plug (of eight) was not firing at all. When I pulled it out, the gap was nearly zero. I KNEW I gapped it correctly. Then I could see where the intake valve hit the end of the plug and closed it! The other plugs were not so effected. I need to check the valve clearance on that cylinder, but it's not hanging open because the car runs very smooth and powerfully.

These Champions have a very long reach. From shoulder to tip of electrode: New Champion W-18 = 0.808". 60 year old Blue Crown Husky 76 Comm = 0.677" (Crossover lists tell me the Husky is one step hotter than a W18.)

I'm just very thankful that the plug wasn't much longer or I could have bent the valve.

I took the Champions back to NAPA and they refunded my money. I also bought a set of Autolite 7/8" plugs of comparable heat range. I'm going to run the Blue Crowns as long as they continue to work (they look nice), but since we don't know if the 7/8" plugs might cease production, I'll have something on the shelf.

The Autolites were half the price of the Champions, too.

--Scott

--Scott

[Guest imported_Speedster]

WOW, I didn't know valves could hit W-18 plugs.

Sounds like PackardV8 is correct and the Newer W-18s are made for Tractors, not Packards.

I guess that's another advantage of the W-14s, They have shorter length.

I have desided not to bid on the W-14s and get the Autolites, also, since O'Reilly has them in stock.

I got to wondering if the gap of .025, on service card, was correct, so I checked the Service Manual and it says 1/32", which is .031.

Man, I sure have been given a lot of Wrong Information, Recently. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

It seems to run okay at .025 but I think the next time I pull them I will try .031. I looked again in Owners Manual but couldn't find any gap spec. It was the service card, not manual, that I had got the .025 from.

[joe kastellic]

Rick you could leave the plug at.025 and let the plug "wear in" it should be at .031 in about five thousand miles if you drive the car that much.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

"These Champions have a very long reach. From shoulder to tip of electrode: New Champion W-18 = 0.808". 60 year old Blue Crown Husky 76 Comm ..."

I rest my case.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

If u r running a stock ignition breaker point type systems then it is best to gap plugs in the .024 - .028 range for easier starting. Also do not use a dwell meter to set points. Use an .018 - .022 feeler gauge as recomended by manufacturer.

[scott12180]

It's not a good idea to start with a small spark plug gap and allow it to "wear in" to 0.031". I used to believe that and did it for years on my modern car.

The reason is that when the electrode wears, is rounds off. It's much better to have a sharp, square electrode. This provides a stronger electric field and hotter spark. That's why you sometimes see in the old repair manuals the suggestion to file the electrode flat. It made a great difference in my modern car.

--Scott

[Jeff Darnell]

It sounds to me like the problem here is the fact that lots of you do not know the correct spark plug to use. Just because if fits in the hole dose not make it the right spark plug for your application! I take this a little personal since I have worked for Champion for over 20 years. We do not build cheap spark plugs and the j gap has be proven to be an exlent way to gap a plug. The fact is you can no longer get the proper plug for your car or do not even know what that may be. There is a Model A club (not sure witch one) has had Champion building the 3X for them for many years (here in the Burlington Iowa USA plant I personally have been involved building them ) just like in the 30's even the boxes and instructions. You need to get together and do the same so you can keep those cars on the road running good. Champion is dedicated to quality and innovation this I can insure. Please get your facts right before you slander. Ps the W18 is just the same as it has always been. The 25 is also a very popular choice for many older cars.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Jeff Darnell (see edit history)

[Owen_Dyneto]

AutoLite's current recommendation for your Packard is #3076.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Jeff, thanks for the info, you may or may not have noticed this is a very old thread, but good to know someone from Champion spotted this. Not sure if you are responding as a hobbyist or representing the company, but you mention reproducing plugs for MARC or MAFCA, I have always understood you can get most plugs but need an understanding of the Champion numbering system for that particular brand (which a non-Champion company outlines on the web - easilly found via Google.)

Does Champion provide a cross reference chart anywhere?

What advantages would "getting together to have something manufactured" bring?

Having had an "A" for many years, I ran Champion plugs in it but understood them to be made in Mexico? Can't remember the number, they were proper but NOT 3X repros. Is this the case for most plugs today? What is made stateside? I will tell you my own supplier made a comment on quality, but that is anecdotal at best; and this was a while ago.

Are you involved with specialty products for Champion?

I will say the Champions in my Packard seem fine, sourced through one of the Packard suppliers - I admit to trusting them to get the number right...

Hope you pick this post up, it would be interesting feedback.

Thanks

Edited December 20, 2011 by Steve_Mack_CT
added line (see edit history)

[Guest Albert]

we have found that at the garage i work at the GM cars with new champion plugs that just fail emission testing , will pass with delco plus instead,, yet my 54 patrician seems ok with champions,,

[Guest PackardV8]

See Post #26 above by someone claiming Champion Spark plug employment. His best information provided is :

" It sounds to me like the problem here is the fact that lots of you do not know the correct spark plug to use."

Ok. then why doesn't HE direct us to the correct plug for a 26 Packard which started this thread to begin with. Or direct us to a Champion spark plug chart for vintage vehicles???

We want answers. Not sales pitches.

[Owen_Dyneto]

Just to repeat, the current AutoLite recommended plug for this engine is a #3076. I also like the AutoLites because they have a blackened steel shell and thus look more authentic than Champions with the cad-plating.

[Guest PackardV8]

Owen. I do not own a 26 Packard. If i did i would follow YOUR recommendation and use the AutoLite 3076 plugs and live happily ever after.

[Bleach]

The only problem I've had with AC plugs was the ceramics would break very easily if dropped.

[Owen_Dyneto]

PackardV8, I wasn't responding to you. The original post in this thread was by Scott12180 and he was asking about spark plugs for a 1926 Packard, hence my replies.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Owen, I would appreciate knowing the Autolite number for my 282 if handy. (yet another "ask" for you sir...)

[Owen_Dyneto]

Steve, #3136 if it's still using 10mm plugs as original. If it's been bored and rethreaded for 14mm plugs, then #308.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

As usual, thank you sir!!

Still using 10mm plugs and luckilly holes appear to be in fine shape. Of course I broke a plug first time I changed them out because I did not reallize how gently they want you to put the 10MM plugs in. I forget the torque spec but it is unlike any plug I have ever put in before, including lawn equipment!

[Jeff Darnell]

Steve sorry it took so long to get back (dead Computer). I do work for Champion but I am strictly on here as a hobby. My hole family is into cars so from a young age up (now 41) I love them. Dad has a 54 vette that we restored, my uncles had mustangs and A's. Now I love them all. I found this web site looking for parts for my friends 1912 Franklin and decided to join. And getting to work at Champion in the Prototype lab building the next great plug for the next great car is like a dream to me.

I did not see it was a old post thanks for the tip.

This is a link I found on line that looks good for trying to figure out what will work or if you give me some info i could try to look it up also

Champion sparkplug symbol code decode

Spark Plug Numbering System, Spark Plugs Symbol Code, Symbol Key, NGK, Champion, Denso, AC - Cixi Meiya Automobile Parts Co., Ltd.

Most people have no idea how much tech goes into a spark plug. It looks simple till you get into all the different combinations.

I am looking for a reference chart to help in applications. I believe this would help a lot of the problems.

Torque on most 10 MM plugs should be 17 ft lbs.

Thank for talking to me I hope to be on and see what is up.

Also where do I go to put the cars I own a picture under my name?

Jeff