EXTREMELY RARE car

[Guest Shaffer]

We have talked about the early 70s Electras being oddley equipped. I thought that the 71 Buick Electra once for sale on E-Bay posted on here without A/C was rare, but this has to be about the rarest equipped General Motors car around. Here is a e-bay link to a top of the line 1971 Chevrolet Caprice 4dr hardtop sedan with a factory 3-speed manual on the column. The Caprice was to Chevrolet, what Electra is to Buick. I though that be the early 70s the only manual shift full-size Chevrolets was on the base-level Biscaynes. Someone on the group here had mentioned that their dad or someone had a 67 Electra w/ a factory 3-speed manual on column, but it was a special order, and this Caprice may have been the same way, as I think automatic was standard on the 71 Impalas and Caprices. I used to own a 71 Caprice just like this one and I have factory sales literature, so I am going to have to locate it and see what the book says. Also someone had mentioned that their family member had a 66 Caprice Estate wagon, with a 3-speed and someone here on the group has/had a 70 Buick Estate Wagon w/a 3-speed manual. Still see a lot of these rare equipped cars around from time to time. If I am not mistaken, I have a road test report for the 71 Pontiac Grand Villes (top of the line luxury full-size Pontiac and I think it said that 0.1% of the 71 Grand Villes had manual shift 3-speed, but I am not 100% sure. Perhaps that 0.1% was special orders as well. Back to the Caprice: Also notice that this Caprice does NOT have tilt wheel, but does have A/C and bumper gaurds. My 71 had A/C, tilt, factory am/fm 8-track and automatic, but no bumper gaurds. I guess the early 70s Buicks was not the only odd equipped cars. <BR> <A HREF="http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1808323179" TARGET=_blank>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1808323179</A>

[rocketraider]

Those were the great days when you could order a car with what YOU wanted- not some "Option Package I" that was dictated more by the mfg profit margin on those options, or by EPA restrictions on powertrain combinations.<P>I believe Buick and Olds made automatic standard on the B&C carlines in 1971, maybe Pontiac. Chevy offered it as standard at least thru 1973 with 6-cylinder, and the A-body cars had it standard til about 1976. <P>Weirdest equipped car I ever saw was a 1966 Biscayne 4d-sedan with 6, 3-speed stick, radio delete, and COMFORTRON! Found another weird Chevy, 69 Impala, 327-Glide, PS, A/C and 6-way seat. You may have read about the weird mid 60s Buicks I mentioned last week.

[Guest Shaffer]

I guess I missed the story on the mid 60s Buicks you mentioned last week. The 66 Biscayne (bottom of the line Chevrolet) you mentioned with the comfortron would be extremely, extremely rare. There is a 68 Biscayne locally (100% original and about a #4 car) that a elderly lady drives. I think that car has 327 (as indicated on front fender and automatic) although not a rare car, it is still a neat old car. Also, yesterday I seen a interestingly equipped car at one of our larger local cruise-ins, that me and my grandfather drove his 55 Buick to yesterday. A old man my grandfather knows drove his wifes 1974 Dodge Dart Special Edition (top of the line) 4-dr sedan there yesterday (he usually drives his 55 Chrysler New Yorker Town and Country wagon). The 74 Dart SE, had all of the luxury equipment (for the smallest 74 Dodge aside from the imported Colt) such as the 318 V-8, automatic, woodgrained interior, thick carpet, velour seats (front bucket reclining seats), vinyl top, color-keyed hubcaps, hood ornament, etc. I noticed that it did not have A/C. I thought it was odd. The car was about a #2-3 car, as he bought it new and was garage kept. It was getting some bubbles under the top though. I have also seen a 68 Ford Country Squire with a factory manual shift. I guess this proves that at least the early to mid 70s cars, whether GM, Ford or Chrysler was equipped anyway the buyer wanted, rather than a certain model/trim line having certain options.<P>[ 02-25-2002: Message edited by: Shaffer ]<p>[ 02-25-2002: Message edited by: Shaffer ]

[Guest Shaffer]

The 69 Impala, with those options does not sound nearly as rare as the 66 Biscayne you mentioned. At least the Impala was a more upscale car, more in line with a base LeSabre. Speaking of 69 Impalas, at the same cruise, I once seen a 69 Impala 4-door hardtop sedan there, with a factory 427 V-8, automatic, Comfortron A/C, power windows and locks, and fenderskirts - all factory. It looked more like a Caprice. The owner (a dealer) said the old woman he bought it from had special ordered it that way- he had all papers on car. She should have just bought a Caprice.

[Guest]

Speaking of rare, I had a '63 Wildcat Fourdoor hardtop with bucket seats, and a console with tach. <BR>I wonder how many were made?

[rocketraider]

The Standard Catalog of American Cars shows 17,519 1963 Wildcat 4d HT built, but doesn't break it out into bucket/bench seat equipped. All it says is bucket seats optional on 4d HT, std other models. Since a 4d HT was aimed at a different buyer than the 2d HT or convertible, I'd say no more than 10% of 63 Wildcat 4dHT would have had bucket seats. It was aimed at the same market who would have bought a Galaxie XL or Mercury Marauder 4d HT, both of which had buckets/console standard. Neat that Buick offered it in a 4d HT at all- the other GM divisions didn't.

[66400]

I do recall doing a double take seeing a '63 or '64 Cadillac Sedan de Ville 4drhdtp with what appeared to be factory bucket seats and center console in the early '70's in a salvage yard in Springfield, Mass. Henry

[Guest nailswede]

first one question:is comfortron the same as climatecontrol?<P>And about 4 door wildcat 63 with buckets and consule with tachometer.. i have one!..first owner was a woman in florida..she must have been a little short because there is 1/½ inch spacers under the seats <BR>I only have 1 pic..and it doesnt show the interior <BR>just the rear of the car inside garage. <A HREF="http://buicks.net/show_and_shine/AL/AL.html" TARGET=_blank>http://buicks.net/show_and_shine/AL/AL.html</A>

[Guest John Chapman]

Thoughts on why the 'oddball' equipped cars survive:<P>I had two great uncles that reached adulthood in the depression. Each ordered cars like the ones described above. One uncle refused to have air conditioning, automatic or a V8 and always bought the top line big Chevy in black, dark blue or dark green.<P>The other always drove big Dodges. Had to be white with blue interior (NO two tone), a manual, would NEVER pay more for a four speed. Had to be a V8. Wouldn't drive a car with a radio because of the 'rays' (insisted on riding in the back if the car had a radio). Had to have cloth seats because the vinyl gave off 'fumes'. Bought the fanciest A/C system available because my great aunt had 'the fevers'.<P>While this sounds a bit whacky, they were actually pretty normal folks with a few quirks about their cars... well, they always had a preserves area in the basememt and a huge freezer full of food, too. And if there was a barn, you can bet there were 50-100 gallon tanks of diesel and gas. There were usually two cars in the family, with the second one used as the family car. All were well-cared for and stayed in the families a long time. I suspect that many of the depression era adults bought cars the same way, took care of them and now these cars are 'survivors' with 'oddball' options/equipment.<P>Just my thoughts....<P>JMC<p>[ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: John Chapman ]

[Tom Deering]

Living in the Phoenix area during the late '50s and '60s, a lot of the cars we now think of as "odd" were popular, concious, well thought out purchase decisions. First item is factory air; Its desireability in Phoenix is self evident. Standard transmissions; many of us thought the additional heat load placed on the cooling system by an automatic transmission was just too much. As a result, we had things like a '60 Bonneville Safari with factory air and a 3 speed, 390 cu.in. Galaxie convertible with factory A/C and 3 speed etc. etc.<P> What was odd to us was to see these poor folks from back east in their new cars nearly sweltering into unconciousness because they "didn't believe in A/C".<P> Tom<BR> <BR>How's this for "odd": a '59 T-bird with factory air and 3 speed manual. <BR>Wish I could remember all the interesting new cars that we saw walking thru the parking lot during lunch in the early '60s.<p>[ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: Deering ]

[Guest]

We have a Lido Lavender and white 59 Electra coupe. These Electras were top of the line and usually came with several options, but ours was bought by a farmer, and it is obvious he liked nice cars but was very utility-minded. It has power steering, power brakes, tinted glass, and a radio. That is about it. No power seats, p. windows, p. antenna, autronic eye, a/c, rear speaker, etc. Just a very nice top of the line car with no frills. Great thing about this one is that he kept VERY good care of his Buicks, and it is as original and new as the day he bought it. It is a wonder he did not order a three speed manual in it. Now that would have been cool! Matt.

[Guest Shaffer]

"Comfortron" was just the name for automatic climate control on General Motors cars.

[rocketraider]

We had kin living in upstate New York who were used to wearing sweaters in July, and one year they came here in a just-bought 67 Caprice sedan, Tropic Turquoise w/ black vinyl top and cloth interior. No A/C. And it was hot here the summer of 67. About three days into their visit, the new Caprice went to Sears and had a hang-on A/C installed for the trip home.<P>And a lot of people were like my dad and his sister- they wanted things as simple as possible. One of their brothers always had loaded-up Roadmasters and Ninety Eights,and she and Dad always sniped about "Mack and his damn gadgety cars". Her husband bought a 68 four-door T-bird that was forever in the shop with some electrical glitch, which only reinforced her belief that cars should be simple. I think she was happier with their 1960 Falcon wagon than any other car they ever had.

[WQ59B]

I would have to guess that buckets in a Wildcat 4-dr hdtp is much rarer than 10%. For comparison, I will point to the '59 Eldorado Biarritz, 1320 made and a generally acknowledged 100 with buckets: 7.5%. I would guesstimate under 4% '63 4-dr bucket 'cats.<P>Pontiac made automatics standard in March 1971 on the GP, GV, Bonneville & Cat. Here's possibly the rarest GM equipped car: the '71 Grand Ville sold 46,330 units... only 2 had manual trans (.004%!!) uhhh, yea- you might call that rare.<P>A 3-spd manual was std in the '71 Centurion, LeS Cstm, LeS. In '72, no full-size are listed as having manuals standard- I suspect Buick also followed the March '71 changeover date. '71 Olds f/s were all standard 3-spd except the 98 and Toro, in '72- all f/s have autos std. Same case for Chevy: manuals std in '71, gone by '72 (but not on the 6s). <P>I will almost guarantee you GM passed ruling on this matter, since almost every GM assembly plant made multiple makes- it probably made things easier somehow.<P>Finally, I believe 'Comfortron' is probably a Chevy-only name, most features (even paint colors) were individually named back when. '65, '68, '74 Pontiac: Automatic Temperature Control, '66 Cadillac: Automatic Climate Control. I never heard the 'Comfortron' name ever used referring to Pontiac, for instance.

[Guest]

I have a 73 Limited that does not have power seats, cruise, or tilt. Seems odd that the top of the line Buick did not have these "extras".

[Centurion]

Buick also changed to automatics only (on LeSabre and Centurion)during the 1971 model year, as WQ59B indicated. Prior to this change, my understanding is that '71's with manual transmissions had to be assembled at the Wilmington assembly plant -- one of three plants building the '71 Buick B-Body cars that year. (Other two plants were Southgate, CA and Fairfax - Kansas City. A handful of '71 Centurions were also built in Flint.) I have heard of a '71 Centurion convertible built with the manual transmission and the modified high performance 455 engine option.

[rocketraider]

Comfortron was actually Oldsmobile's gimmick name for ATC that Chevy picked up on for their big car line. I know that by late 70s (after the downsizing) Pontiac was also calling ATC Comfortron and have seen several Bonnevilles and Safaris with it.

[Guest]

I knew a guy in 1976 that had one of only four automatic 289 AC Cobras! It was a beautiful car with a perfect white paint and sidedraft webers. The sad part....he sold it for $18,000 Ouch!

[Guest Shaffer]

There is currently a 66 Pontiac Safari wagon on E-bay with a manual shift, but it is NOT original as stated.

[Guest]

A Buick LeSabre 6 passanger wagon with a 401 duel quad setup AND 4 speed just popped up in a local rag here in Seattle. Claims to be a factory original "one of one". Asking price is $5,200 obo.

[Guest]

I know of the 64 Wagon. They did not make a 401 with dual fours, and this car has two single four 401 automatic carbs on a dual four intake. It is a 401 4 speed, but that is about it. Matt.

[Guest]

Mea Culpa Matt! It still sounds like quite a ride. thanks for setting me straight, Greg

[Guest]

NO NO NO, Greg, my reply was not to set you straight, please do not think I meant that. You are right, it IS a rare car, just the owner and I have gone our rounds, (I was buying it and he just decided he wanted more money for it and was not going to sell it to me) and he is advertising a car that just not is. I think it is funny he is asking almost what I was going to pay for it. It is definately a cool car. Matt

[Guest]

Matt-I did not feel you were taking me to task, but rather enlightening me on the setup. Are you saying the car is not an original factory ordered car? His ad in the Trader that just came out seems to portray it as such. I can see where you might be miffed if dealings were less than above board. I hope the deal still works out for you. Thanks again, Greg

[Guest]

There is not deal between him and I. I have found some other cars that I am just as happy with... Anyway, the carbs are both 401 single four automatic carbs, there is no dual four aircleaner, and as far as I know and for as much as I have read on 64 dual four and single four 4-speed cars, Buick did not make a 2x4 401 4-speed. It MAY have been added at the dealership, but I doubt that too. It seems to me that someone just put a 2x4 setup on a 401 car (which, when I was going to buy it, it had only a single four manifold on it - which also fuels my suspicion). Matt

[geno]

My inlaws purchased a 1973 Olds Delta 88 in Nov 72, that had Comfortron A/C on it. They moved from Mich to Fla. in 73, gave the car to us in 1988. On the way back to Indiana the compressor lock up. A friend of mine gave me an old Compressor he had laying around and I got the A/C working again I had to replace the water valve 2 times added R12(14oz can) 2 times. I stopped driving it to work in March 1999 and all the Auto Climate stuff still worked ( a least the summer before)I sold it to some kid that like big sled Oldsmobiles for $300. I had to get rid of it because the lady who,s parents gave it to us said "we had to many cars" I kind of miss it

[Guest]

Kid and Greg,<P>Is that the same wagon that was on eBay a few months ago? If it is, that's a somewhat notorious vehicle. It seems that there were just too many unanswered questions about that car. I know at least two people who looked at it and passed it up due to the lack of convincing answers to basic questions. If memory serves, it was portrayed as "all original", but has been repainted from blue (according to the cowl tag) to white - not to mention the whole imbroglio about the 2x4 setup.

[Guest]

Konga - it is the one and the same. Yep, the paint code reads that it was NOT a white car, and the dual four thing is a joke. Matt

[Guest]

The current ad implies it is an original "one of one" from the factory. If nothing else, this forum serves as a watch dog for the Buick buying public. Nice work guys. GH

[Guest Shaffer]

Again, speaking of rare early 1970s GM cars, here is a 1971 Oldsmobile Delta 88 in MINT condition. Notice on the dash that the car does NOT have A/C. <BR> <A HREF="http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1810860741" TARGET=_blank>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1810860741</A>

[Guest Shaffer]

No tilt wheel either.

[86 2dr.ltd]

My 76 Delta coupe is somewhat interesting. Although it has air,tilt,cruise,trunk and both power seats, its got crank windows and only AM-FM no 8 track,no clock - while my 75 conv. has air,windows,drivers power seat and 8track and once clock it doesnt have cruise or trunk. Both came with the rear window defrost,neither working.<P>The 76 came from the original owners son and I'm thinking he must have figured the windows and clock were nothing but trouble.Another point of interest is he was a diesel mechanic and was unhappy with the performance of the detuned 350. He sent it to a performance shop while quite new and they installed a different camshaft and lifters.<P>I dont notice any difference in power from my 75 w/350.

[Reatta Man]

Back in the early '90s, I bought a '67 Lesabre, 300 cu. in. V-8, with a perfect, and I mean perfect interior, but no air while in Milwaukee. The Buick dealer was the original selling dealer. When I asked about the lack of A/C, he told me that back in the 60s, they tried to talk people out of ordering cars with A/C because that meant they had to order all of the special tools, gauges, manuals and other things needed to service only a few cars. They also had to send a tech to get "approved GM training." <P>I also knew a dealer in Delaware, OH (near Columbus) that sold Chevys and Caddies. He said he had a few customers who would come in and order the most stripped-down Cadillac possible, just to get the Cadillac name. He always said he could resell a loaded Chevy easier than a stripo Caddie, but he gave the customer what he wanted. <P>Not sure if this is true, but it makes sense. Why spend hundreds, if not thousands of dollars (1960s dollars, no less) in order to be able to provide warranty service to only a handfull of cars. Some people also think they got 'more' car by ordering a certain brand, even if they had to do without a lot of options in order to afford it. <P>That is one of two reasons that I almost NEVER bid on e-bay cars from up north--the lack of A/C. The other reason, of course, is rust.

[Guest]

OK, this discussion is long enoungh for one more. I have a 66 Skylark GS HT with 340 hp option, 4 speed and A/C. How rare is that?

[Guest]

Re: That infamous Buick Wagon<BR>It's got to be an interesting car because of the 4 speed/401 combination, and at around $5,000 it should be a decent buy. I think that the 2X4/AFB thing is clouding the issue. a 401 4 speed wagon has got to be a unique piece.....Comments????<BR>By the way, I had a 61 Olds Super 88 H/T with a 4 speed, A/C, PS& PB and that's about it. Was supposed to be an "Oldsmobile Zone managers" car. I wish that I'd kept it..I was told that is was one of a few built for drag racing...

[Guest Shaffer]

Usually the early/mid 70s Pontiac Catalinas (base full-size Pontiac) are fairly "plain" cars, to be a full-size Pontiac and especially compared to the loaded, luxury top of the line Grand Ville, which is about as luxurious as a Electra. The Catalinas are usually about as equally equipped as a Chevrolet Impala of the 70s, which is just one step below the top of line Chevrolet. Sometimes the Impala could have power windows, locks, vinyl top and almost all early 70s Impalas had A/C. There is a 76 Catalina sedan here locally for sale. It is a high optioned car. It has vinyl top, tilt, cruise, am/fm 8-track, A/C, and the "rectangle" headlights (Similar to the 75 Grand Ville/Bonneville and 76 Bonneville Brougham) that was optional on the 76 <BR>Catalina. Vinyl tops was also something that was not usually seen on Catalinas, but was rather reserved for the Bonneville and Grand Ville, and as on all GM full-size cars of the 70s, was even a option as well. Recently on E-Bay, there was a 71 Mercury Monterey sedan (comparable/competetor to Buick LeSabre), with no air, no tilt, no power steering. I am sure the list could go on for a long time of oddly equipped cars of the 50s thru the 70s.<p>[ 03-13-2002: Message edited by: Shaffer ]

[Guest Shaffer]

Speaking of 72 Electras, there is a 72 Electra on E-Bay, that has the cloth seats, which I assume is the Custom model, but it has "plainer" door panels than my 72 Electra Custom had, but it has the same seats. (So, it has the door panels of the base Electra, seats of the Electra Custom). The Electra Limited had a even more upscale look than the Electra Custom, which even had more upscale seats, so there was actaully three trim levels (Seats and door panels) for at least the 72 Electra. This Electras door panels are the type where the window switches are on the door panel, rather than on the "arm rest" on the panel. Owners/previous owners of 71-73 Electras will know what I am talking about. This is a low mile (18K) car, so I am sure it is all original. I just can't figure out the door panel/seat combo. Perhaps the cloth seats was a option on the base Electra. It is still a very nice car. Can be seen at:<BR> <A HREF="http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1812046127" TARGET=_blank>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1812046127</A> <P>Also, here is a nice 71 Electra:<BR>It is the Limited model, so you can see the difference in the seats. The base Electra has all-vinyl seats (not shown on either model)<BR> <A HREF="http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1811424741" TARGET=_blank>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1811424741</A>

[Guest Shaffer]

Also just noticed that from the looks under the hood; that this 72 Electra does NOT have cruise either.

[86 2dr.ltd]

Shaffer; A long time ago someone asked and I'm thinking it was you - about the lights at the bottom of the doors on the Olds but not on the Electras. I had said that both of my Royals 75&76 had them. I lied only my 75 has them. Must have made that statement before I brought the 76 home.In fact I just noticed about a month ago and have since wondered what made me think it had them. Must have had a pleasant 88 Royal dream the night before. <P>I thought the passenger 6-way power and cruise control were wisely choosen options by the original owner. I'll never sit in the seat though because I cant use the cruise control from over there.

[Guest Shaffer]

It was me asking about the door lights. If I am not mistaken, even the early 70s Pontiac Grand Villes have lights on the door bottoms. Maybe a option as well. I just found it odd that the Electras did not have them, even as a option. I think my old 1971 Oldsmobile Toronado had the lights. I am sure my old 1972 Cadillac had them. Do not remember if my grandmothers old 1972 Lincoln Continental had the lights or not.