Willys Knight model 66? help

[Guest Awini]

dear all

someone i know wants to sell a circa 1925 willys knight which i presume is a model 66 because its 6 cylinder and about 18 feet long(216 inches)

the problem is that it smokes like a smoke machine in a disco,when you start the engine, there is a virtual fog behind the car. obviously there is something wrong with the sleeves, but can it be fixed? if so where can new sleeves be had and how much would be the approximate cost, and what is a fair price to pay for this car? the car is a 7P tourer, complete, but needing total restoration, the only things missing are the hub caps which were stolen recently. the car is in india.

thanks

[Guffin]

Did you run the engine for a longer time? If somebody put some oil in the cylinders when the car was stored it may take 10 t0 20 minutes before the engine stops smoking.

Jan

[Guest]

Sleeve valve engines were always noted for their mosquito fogging ability. I was always led to believe by the old timers that I talked to who drove them that you knew when the engine needed to be overhauled because it stopped burning oil.

[Guest akhilesh agarwal]

Dear Awini,

I am a new member and came across your old post re Willys Knight model 66. I am a mechanical engineer doing hands on engine restoration and with a special interest in and familiarity with sleeve valve engines which, amongst others, were used in Willys Knight. These engines are rather complex with a lot of high-precision moving parts and sleeves and were known to use/burn a lot of oil and give off a lot of smoke. The only way to keep the smoke level down is to have the engine in very good mechanical condition. There is no question of the sleeves being available anywhere, they have to be made especially.This requires specialised and excellent machining and fitting skills, not easily available in India, certainly not with uneducated roadside mechanics ! You said the car is in India. If you let me know the present status, and ask the owner to get in touch with me, I would be able and glad to help. I could also be interested in buying the car if the price is reasonable. My mobile no is 9621810050 and email id is akhileshagarwal2000@yahoo.com

Best regards

Akhilesh Agarwal

[Rusty_OToole]

This may be normal. Knight sleeve valve engines were notorious smokers even when new.

The royal family of England used sleeve valve Daimlers for years. If you see old movies of their limo you will see a plume of blue smoke out the tailpipe.

The only cure is to drive the car. They take a long time to warm up. I knew an old time car collector around here, who used a 4 cylinder Willys Knight from about 1926 as a tour car in the sixties and seventies.

He told me when he started off it would burn 1 quart of oil in the first 60 miles. After that it would burn no more oil for the rest of the day.

The next day, starting from cold, it would burn 1 quart of oil then burn no more oil for the rest of the day. This was an original car that had not been rebuilt.

Normal touring at that time would mean 200 to 300 miles per day at a speed of 35 to 45 MPH.

By the way Knight sleeve valve engines were very long lived. Over 100,000 miles without overhaul was normal. Some bus engines were said to have gone 300,000 miles without overhaul.

If the engine runs well and has good oil pressure I would not monkey with it. Keep it full of good oil and drive it.

[Guest akhilesh agarwal]

Dear Rusty_OToole,

Delighted to read your comments, you are obviously very familiar with Knight sleeve valve engines, and I have been looking for someone like you from whom I can learn more about them. I know that Daimler cars were preferred by the British royal family and sleeve valve engines were reputed to be very quiet, but heavy on oil consumption and gave a lot of smoke. I am curious to know why they took a long time to warm up, and why they should consume oil only for the first 60 miles, and not thereafter ? Also why they were long lived ? My understanding is that they used 2 sleeves one inside the other, and both sleeves were moved up and down by a separate crankshaft/connectiing rods, instead of a camshaft opening/closing poppet valves. The gas inlet and outlet was by means of ports cutout in the sleeves, much like as in 2 stroke engines. This means an awful lot of close fitting and moving parts. Were the sleeves made of cast iron or steel ? If the engine has good oil pressure and runs well, it is best not to disturb it, as you advise. But if it continues to give heavy smoke even after warming up and consumes a lot of oil, what does one do ? Do the sleeves need rework/replacement ? Are spare sleeves available and if not, can they be made ? I'm interested in a an old Knight sleeve valve engine and would like to purchase it and recondition it as a project. I would be grateful if you can refer me to anyone who wants to sell a Knight engine. I don't mind if it is worn, but it should not be jammed due to lack of oil/missing plugs/or water ingress. I would appreciate any information or reference to other persons knowledgeable about Knight sleeve valve engines. My email id is akhileshagarwal2000@yahoo.com

Best regards,

Akhilesh Agarwal

[Rusty_OToole]

The Knight sleeve valve engine was designed specifically to eliminate the normal poppet valves. In those days, burned valves, warped valves, broken valve springs and other valve troubles were a common cause of engine failure.

The Knight engine had 2 close fitting sleeves one inside the other. Usually they were fine grain cast iron but some engines used steel sleeves. Voisin used thin, light weight steel sleeves and got higher RPMs and more performance out of his cars, than other sleeve valve cars.

It seems that it takes a long time for the sleeves, pistons, and rings to warm up and work smoothly together. The reason for the oil burning is that there must be clearance between the parts when they are cold, to prevent the engine seizing up when hot. Once the engine is fully warmed up the parts expand enough to fit together tightly and run smoothly.

Sleeve valve engines were tested extensively and proved that not only would they outlast a typical poppet valve engine by a large margin, the sleeve valve engine actually ran better and produced MORE horsepower the longer it ran.

When a typical poppet valve engine was reduce to a clattering wreck in less than 100 hours of full throttle, full power operation the sleeve valve engine would run for several hundred hours and produce more power at the end of the test, than it did at the beginning.

An article on the Stearns sleeve valve engines, one of the finest engines ever made.

THE STEARNS AND STEARNS-KNIGHT MOTOR CARS

A quote re: official tests done in 1909 on Daimler sleeve valve engines.

Other manufacturers, becoming somewhat worried, demanded an official test by the British Royal Automobile Club to disprove the claims made for the Knight-type motor. To silence the skeptics, Daimler submitted its engines to the Royal Automobile Club for exhaustive tests, but in turn demanded conditions many times more severe than those imposed by the Club. The tests were run between March 15th and 28th, 1909, at Coventry and on the Brooklands track. The tests consisted of over five days of bench running and over two- thousand miles of track tests for each of the two production engines. Not only were the test results favorable, they were astounding! Engine disassembly showed no perceptive wear to moving parts but, more important, final tests showed an increase in horsepower - 54.3 to 57.25 for the larger engine and 38.83 to 38.96 for the smaller. The results of these tests, and Daimler's increase in sales, earned the Daimler Company the coveted Dewar Trophy in 1909. In short order licenses from the Knight and Kilbourne Patents Company were also awarded to the greatest manufacturers the automobile industry has ever known, such as Rover Company in England, DMG (Mercedes) in Germany, the Minerva Company in Belgium and Panhard et Levassor in France. Knights engines had really been accepted.

Edited May 7, 2011 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

I don't know anyone who has rebuilt a sleeve valve engine, they are very long lived and also complicated and expensive to work on.

I have heard that the sleeves are delicate when taken out of the motor, you must be careful not to drop the sleeve or even lay it on its side. If it goes out of round it is ruined.

I don't believe the sleeves wear out. I think a new set of rings and new bearings would be all that would be required. But there may be others with more experience who know better.

[Seldenguy]

Every year at the Hershey flea market there are Willys club members set up in the red field at the far end by the roller coaster. These members have a cutaway model on display that can be hand cranked by the public to see the action created by the sleeves. Several years ago a collector from Cleveland whom owns autos with Knights engine told me the person that really understands and is recognized as an authority lives in the state of California.I personally think that if you get in touch with the Willy's club and their membership you will find many answers to your questions. I might add that every year I walk over to their Hershey spot( my spaces are only 12-15 away)and crank that engine,the action is undescribable. Join their club! -- Bob

[sfair]

A perfectly operating rectifier, if so equiped, goes a long ways in helping with the oil consumptiom.

[Willys77]

"wokr.org" is the place to be! Great info on the Sleeve Valve vehicles. Well worth the price of admission, as well. Strongly suggest that you join the club.

[Hupp36]

Un like a poppet valve engine, a Kight engine likes carbon build up. I have a 1923 W/K with an engine that was rebuilt about 700 miles ago. The more I run it , the less it smokes and uses less oil. In talking to old time mechanic's that were familiar with Knight engines said the Knight engine was in the 300 to 500 mile range to a qt of oil. Cars from the early on to the 60's used a qt. of oil in 500 to 1,000 miles.

[Guest akhilesh agarwal]

I greatly appreciate the detailed insights given by Rusty, and read the Stearns history with interest. Rusty has explained very nicely why the sleeve valve engine smokes a lot until it warms up. I can understand that that the sleeves, being thin walled are delicate and you can't drop them, but while laying them on its side would cause it to go out of round due to its own weight, theoretically at least this should be quite small and within the elastic limit of the sleeve material and so recover its roundness when placed upright. If a sleeve valve engine continues to smoke even after extended warm up, Rusty says most likely it needs a change of rings rather than the sleeves.

I would love to find someone who has experience with rebuilding a sleeve valve engine. Perhaps Bob can refer to me to the sleeve valve authority who lives in California.

I have seen on the net the cutaway model with graphic simulation of sleeve valve action, it is indeed indescribable !

Re the rectifier, I presume Sfair means some kind of oil filter. Clean oil should help reduce engine wear, but I'm not sure why it should help reduce the oil consumption.

I will try and join WOKR as advised by Willys77.

Its nice to hear from Hupp36, one who actually owns a Willys Knight. Can you pl put me in touch with the person who rebuilt your engine 700 miles ago ? Your explanation why oil consumption reduces the more you run it, makes sense, its because of carbon build up !

I am still on a lookout for a knight sleeve valve to restore !

[Rusty_OToole]

The Skinner Oil Rectifier was not exactly a filter. It used the exhaust manifold heat to boil off water and unburned gas from the oil.

It worked like this. Engine vacuum was used to draw off oil from the base of the cylinders, actually from the piston rings when the piston was at the bottom of its stroke. This oil went to a reservoir on the hot manifold. The gases were drawn off by intake manifold vacuum and burned in the engine. The oil was returned to the crankcase.

It was thought that this would improve fuel economy, reduce oil consumption and extend engine life by eliminating contamination of the oil. Some expensive cars including Packard used it in the 20s but it went out of use in the 30s.

The company that made them is still in business but now is known as Purolator.

[Seldenguy]

Akhilesh-- I am sure there are at least two of the Stearns/Knights autos in the AACA museum. These are available to view during their public presentation hours. Also through the Museum and the Library you may be able to make contact with past owners and past engine rebuilders for these cars. Good luck with your search! --Bob