Guest Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 I suspect this has been discussed many times, but as usuall, I'm clueless.How much repair can be done to a car before it stops being defined as unrestored and it becomes defined as being restored? What's in between those two designations?Let me give an example. A car is in nice condition, except for a small (1/4 inch square) spot in one panel of the vinyl seat upholstery. Beyond that the car really "needs" nothing to be considered above average. Great paint, apparently rust free, mechanically sound, etc. So if the owner replaces the single upholstery panel, does the car lose its unrestored designation?Is my ignorance showing yet? <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 You are not "ignorant" and hardly clue-less - you sound like a genuine nice, responsible guy who is simply having trouble understanding what has happened to discipline in the use of the English language.Sadly, we are in a time of social disintegration, where people are losing their shame over lying. It is that simple. Elsewhere in these "threads" you will find discussions on how people feel no embarssement about "tacking on" the words "classic" and "antique" to just about anything they like or want to sell. Of course the same thing has happened to use of the word "restored".When we still had pride and self-respect as a culture, we would be embarssed to exaggerate or out-right lie. Thus, if a fellow advertised his car as "restored", there was common agreement as to what that meant. "Restored", of course, means "returned to the condition it was when first delivered as a new car to the first owner". That meant the body came off the frame, and the engine, transmission, and drive line came apart. Every part was examined, and those that did not meet "factory spec" were repaired or replaced. Upholstery materials were found that matched what the factory installed when the car was on the assembly line. WHile still apart, the car was re-painted using methods and materials the car had when still partially assembled on the assembly line (you dont see signs of "masking off" on new cars ! ).While I personally admire restored cars, I respect the fact that it makes no sense to actually use them on the open road, given the immediate loss in value as bug-burns, road grit, and other hazzards take their toll on a one hundred to three hundred thousand dollar cost of restoration. I am fortunate to be able to afford a full restoration if I wanted one ( I own a '38 twelve cylinder Packard) but I know if I did that, I could no longer taking the car out on our muddy, dirt roads and beat the crap out of it, enjoying its superior power and handling. Each to his own.If a car is not restored, then it is repaired or re-conditioned. I have re-conditioned my Packard Twelve several times in the nearly 50 years I have had it in service as a "beater" or second car. The fenders, doors, and window-glass came off when I repaint it every 25 years - that's the only way to really do a nice "factory style" re-paint. The engine has been out of the chassis for a major overhaul. The original upholstery is all there..but getting a bit shaggy. And of course every piece of chrome has been re-done - twice, which meant complete dis-assembly of that famous (and complex) Packard grill and radiator shutters. That is hardly a "restoration". It has been repaired, certainly not "restored".An "original" car...heck...everybody knows what that is...it has at least three out of the four wheels it came with, and maybe even a door or two....!Bottom line - dont worry about terminology. Nobody else does ! Call what you want, what fulfills YOUR needs. That is what it has come to in our culture.Pete Hartmann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amphicar BUYER Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 I don't remember where I saw the definition, but there are specific numbers relating to the percentage of the car that has been repaired or replaced. These numbers determine if the car is a "survivor" (all original, only repair work done was maintenace type work) or "restored". Restored ALWAYS means returned to "as delivered" condition which includes the factory overspray and inspection marks. The '34 Ford with a chopped top and Hemi engine is not restored. Any change from the "as delivered" condition makes it from a mild custom to a Rod.Repairing the seat upholstery is only maintenance. Replacing the whole interior is a start in the restoration as long as it is a "correct" interior. YMMV <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
66 Mystery Chevelle Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Oh boy!! This could get messy!! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6219_Rules Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 It all depends on what you want your car to do and be while in your care. Some shudder at the idea of anything not authentic. Others modify to their hearts content. Is the car to be a show car? A tourer? A good weekend driver? A second driver? Or a primary? Restoration is for the show circuit by and large. As Mr. Hartmann put it so well, if verbosely, most do not restore a vehicle (that is to showroom or off assembly line condition) to put it out on the highway to be assaulted by bugs, rocks and inattentive drivers.Repair is for cars to be driven. The degree to which you repair a car with authentic materials is up to you. I chose a long wearing fabric, not original, for my car. I get flak over it but it was the best choice for my needs. I try to maintain the originality of the car to the best degree that I can but I freely make modifications where it is necessary, either for use or due to monitary constraints. My car will never score high in a show, but I still show it. Most people do not care that it is not 100%. They simply marvel that it still is on the road and takes me where I want to go in style. Maintenance is what I do to keep it healthy. Little things like that small tear you were talking about. I only fix what breaks, so for the most part the car has most of its original parts. I rebuilt the carburetor to keep it but I know soon I will have to replace it with a new one. Its old and worn. I kept the old generator as long as I could before replacing it. Mostly I have worked to keep the originality of the system intact. It remains 6 volt. No modifications to the exhaust or engine have been done. The brakes are all original and work beautifully. Driving simply means being careful and proactive. I may put an overdrive on the car to preserve the engine and help with highway speeds. As it is, I drive at 60 for the most part in the slow lane. This is a topic as volitile as any on this forum. You will meet people who damn you for making the slightest modification, while others go to the other extreme and modify to a fair thee well.It all comes down to what you want to do with your car. Once the decision is made, you can always redo it later. That is always an option time and money permitting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizzyDale Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Dear 66 Mystery Chevelle,COULD get messy?Take it to the bank.diz <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Unrestored is worth $35,000.00 bucksRestored, is worth $35,000.00 bucks, but cost $62,583.14. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Thanks guys. My phone lines got cut but a power line crew yesterday morning so I couldn't respond untill now.I seem to recall seeing something, somewhere, along the lines of the "percentage of parts replaced" that Amphicar mentioned. No clue where though. The car I mentioned above as an example belongs to a local enthusiast who apparently wants to keep the car in original unrestored condition as much as possible, while at the same time maintaining it well. It's a very nice late sixties muscle car with some uncommon factory equipment. My brother bought a 69 model muscle car new and just recently gave it to his son. It's one of those cars that sat in storage for 30 years or so. It has a key scratch in the paint and they've been debating whether to get it painted or not because they are concerned about whether that would affect the value negatively. I'm not sure that the paint scratch is as big an issue as the endless number of trips down the dragstrip the car made in its early years. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />As far as the Antique/Classic/Old car thing goes, I'll confess to being one of the folks that uses the terminology. well .... loosely. I'm a slow learner, but I am beginning to pay more attention to how car owners refer to their cars when I'm at a show taking pictures. About the last thing I want to do is insult a car owner by using the wrong terminology when they've been kind enough to spend a few minutes chatting with me. Apparently I've done that a couple of times, it wasn't fun.Now if we want to take this in another direction, we could always look at the impact of terminology on old car websites. But maybe that belongs on a website development forum....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amphicar BUYER Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It has a key scratch in the paint and they've been debating whether to get it painted or not because they are concerned about whether that would affect the value negatively.</div></div> Depending of the severity (how deep and how much area) of the scratch, maybe it could be buffed out? Maybe try spotting it in to retain the majority of the paint rather than a total repaint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
66 Mystery Chevelle Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 KenDepending on the model car you have, Yes, there are RULES as to what % of "Restoration" one can do and still retain the Title of SURVIVOR or UNRESTORED for purposes of SHOWING your car., but those rules likely do not apply within AACA, more so within individual Car Clubs/marques. I can only speak for Chevelles. The now defunct National Chevelle Owners ASSOC. ( NCOA ) has set up these rules for purposes of CHEVELLES and they only apply to those who want their car CERTIFIED as Benchmark, or Survivor status. Fixing that SCRATCH would not make your car any less a survivor car in the eyes of the NCOA., or affect the value. Nor would Just recovering a single seat cover with a reproduction of original type.EXCERPT FROM NCOA GUIDELINES:<span style="font-style: italic">Original unrestored cars should have less than 35% average restoration done to the body, interior, engine, undercarriage, and trunk. Does this mean that an original unrestored car can have some restoration done to it? The answer is YES, as long as the car does not exceed 35% restoration. If there is less than 35% restoration, does this mean that the car is restored? The answer is a simple NO.</span>The word SURVIVOR is over-used and used incorrectly for the most part today.They are a trip back in time. How does the value get affected when they are tampered with...it depends on who is placing the value on it?? a private buyer, or some guy who gets paid to appraise the value? Cars are worth as much as any one person will pay for them...what I value may differ quite a bit from from what many of the OLD GUARD in AACA do or elsewhere. The people who are interested in unrestored cars are getting fewer and fewer, they do not command the money a restored car does. It is cheaper now days to buy one DONE than to do it yourself...TRUST ME!! and while many Love to build em and have the fun and knowledge that they did it themself...not everyone can do it, afford it, or have the time <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />Keep your unrestored car as close to unrestored as you can, guys like me, need your unrestored cars, they are the BLUEPRINT we use to RE-build them to the way they left the assembly line...and in most cases ....better than the way they left! Welcome to the hobby....ask lots of questions and listen to the answers...the hobby is very diverse...VERY!! so, remember the answers and Opinions come from all walks of life, and age ranges <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />Mike Crown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Ken -Did you see my "post" of 10-05 ? Again..it is a free country...you will go NUTS if you start worrying about and try and keep ahead of what this or that group thinks IT has as "THE answer"....! The FACT is...people LIKE to throw fancy words around...there is no stopping it...so...relax...you just call what you want...what you want ! People will make fun of you. That is what people do. I'd like to have a dollar for every time, back in the early fifties, I was asked to move my '38 Packard Twelve away from some place of business...because "that old piece of junk will give my place a bad name". Have COURAGE of your convictions...if you KNOW what you like...and know what words make you feel good...USE EM !A word of caution - to those who are focused on the VALUE aspect of fixing up and operating old cars....It is rare that you can make much money off of fixing up old cars. To do it properly, costs BIG time. Any of you guys price what even a half-way decent re-upholstery job costs...what it costs to re-chrome a bumper..? If you LIKE old cars, it makes economic sense to buy one that never DID get run down...was properly maintained in serviceable condition.I admire those who have the patience and money to take a beat up mess and turn it into something nice. I have done it...it is great fun and educaitonal....but..be prepared to PAY big time for that "privilege". Frankly, it is even MORE fun to go out on the highway to some fun event and/or location, meet people, and enjoy the excellence of the old car you like, than stay huddled breaking your chops trying to un-do years of abuse.Pete Hartmann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 It's refreshing to hear the words that you guys are saying. I've had people turn up their noses at me for calling my "restored" (I put it in quotes because I understand the difference) Stallion stock because I chose to put a chrome valve cover on my 6 cylinder. As a parts dealer, I also hear the same words and attitudes thrown around with reckless abandon. As to values, I follow the NADA classic guides largely for my clients and one thing is a constant, something I learned while I dabbled in an antique business a while back....no matter what any guide book says something is worth, it is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Many of us put much more of an investment in a car than it would ever recoup if it was sold. Why? Because that is what it is worth to us. Unless you are specifically "restoring" a car to resell, values and terminology shouldn't mean anything to us. Your car should just be what you want it to be and nothing more for anyone else. Now, if you're intending to compete in a concours d'elegance competition, that's one thing. For the rest of us who work 40+ hours a week and get greasy and cut up bringing our loves back to a former glory, let them say what they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennis passan Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 what's between unrestored and restored?i think it's called "Original"or, maybe, "Extra-crispy"......it all depends how you look at it!hey! it's friday, what can i say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 You say there are "rules" about whether to call a car "restored" or not..? Be serious ! The only RULE is..."what can I get away with". We USED to have more integrity and discipline in language, but that was when we had the concept of self-respect, and embarssement at being caught lying, exaggerating, etc.In an above "post" I explained what "restored" REALLY means (car returned to its original condition on delivery day, by complete dis-assembly and returned to new condition). Anything else...is "FIXED" or "REPAIRED". My '38 Packard Twelve looks nice. I FIXED it....REPAIRED it. (pulled the engine in '57 and again in '73 and overhauled it, took the fenders and doors apart and painted it with AUTHENTIC nitro cellulose lacquer, so it looks like a factory paint job. I FIXED it...REPAIRED it.... I do agree we shouldn't consider values IF we actually LIKE old cars. Trouble is, how many people actually honestly LIKE the old cars they are fooling around with, and how many have gotten invovled with them for complex psychological reasons.In my own case, the culture I lived in as a young car buff (early 1950's) made it impossible to even imagine that the big-engined super luxury cars of the 1920' and 1930's would EVER be worth more than their weight in scrap iron to a salvage dealer. We actually LIKED a particular type of car. A small group of people who appreciated them, noted they were "classy" cars, and finally, calling them "classics", and started a club to advocate their preservation. At that time, the word "classic" and "restored" had a precise meaning.It turned out that years later, the public for some reason, decided we were "on to something", and "picked up" on the words "classic", and "restored", and now I CHALLENGE anyone to go to a book store, and find many car magazines, train magazines, boat magazines, tractor magazines, airliner magazines, sewing machine magazines..etc..etc...etc...that do not play freely with these words.RULES about the use of these words ? C'mon....at the risk of repeating myself, LET'S BE HONEST ! The only REAL rule applicable here, is how how embarssed is the individual in getting caught lying or exagerating.I was at a hot rod show recently. Saw the typical '32 Ford. Was it a '32 Ford...c'mon...we all know what hot rodders REALLY think of old Fords..? What is the FIRST thing they do with them..? They THROW THEM IN THE TRASH CAN..keeping only SOME of the exterior sheet metal, and mount it on modern car components. Can you BLAME them ? Of COURSE they have no use for old cars, and that is their right...and frankly, it makes sense. Unlike the REAL classics (the super luxury cars of that era) the "average man" cars of that era WERE pretty miserable in that they did what they were designed for...providing VERY basic transportation under VERY modest use-conditions.The "32 Frrd" I looked at, was a new car. The owner was PROUD of the fact that NO part of that car was used or old. Fiberglass body, modern frame, running gear, etc. Frankly, it was BEAUTIFUL workmanship. Great design. Hell..it is a great car I'd love to own and drive. But..."restored '32 Ford".......WHY NOT...it is HIS car ! And this IS an age of deceit and lying in the use of language. The only dispute I have, is with the people who say THEY should be free to make up any silly story they want, but those of us who DO retain some basic understanding of the English language...should be SILENCED if we poke fun at this trend.Now...back to my delicious plate of "classic chicken"....which I will shortly wash down with another glass of Classic Coke....!Pete Hartmann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
critterpainter Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 Pete: your comments about being a young car buff in the 50's makes me wonder if you happened to associate with a friend of mine who lived in the L. A. in the 50's. My friend John Osborne spoke of a friend of his that had a car that was nicknamed "the tarbaby". I believe the name he mentioned was Pete Hartmann. could this have been.....You? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 SON OF A FEMALE CANINE....WHAT A SMALL WORLD !DO YOU STILL SEE JOHN.. ? We were all part of the same "rat pack" of youthful classic car buffs in those years. Havnt seen John for many MANY years...hear he lives up in central Calif. someplace. Another good friend of mine, Bob Locke, hears from him occasionally.How is John ? Yeah..."tar baby".....that's mine...and it is STILL being used as a "beater" second car ! Let me explain where that came from. My Packard Twelve is a FORMAL SEDAN, meaning it is close-coupled, but has a center compartment divider window, and a formal leather top. Problem....I, like many of the early CCCA members, was flat-butted broke in those days...often didnt even have the gas money to drive the damn thing...and...the leather had seen better days. High speed driving tore it to shreds in short order. What to do. Well...a new top in those days would have been over fifty bucks ! C'mon...we have to keep some perspective about throwing excess money into old cars that nobody wanted...so fifty bucks for a new top was out. So, for about a dollar, I bought a can of black rubber under-coating, and, after removing what was left of the leather, smeared it on with my bare hands, doing what I thought was a passable job of "texturing" it, so that it would at least look SOMETHING like the leather top that SHOULD be on there. Well..perhaps from a distance...Well..to be honest..perhaps from a GREAT distance..if it was dark enough. Of course the under-coating looked more like tar than leather..and smelled pretty bad when it got hot. Thus, another of the early CCCA members, Tony Heinsbergen, couldn't contain himself laughing so hard when he saw it...and his nick name "tar baby" stuck down thru the years.When the first Eldos came out, they had a vinyl top specially made for them, in a texture called "Elk Grain". It was EXACTLY the same texture as the original leather Packard used in the thirties, so I had it done in that. Must be about thirty years now. Still looks fine - much more durable and able to handle the fierce heat and intense sun of its new home in the high country of northern Arizona. Pete Hartmann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
critterpainter Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 PeteYes I see him at least once a week...John introduced me to Bob a few years ago. John has an impressive collection of C cars (can I use the capital "c" to describe his cars?) The c refers to what the female dog leaves on the ground! He also has a couple of presentable cars...mostly late teens. and yes one or two Classics in "original" condition..he needs to spend the elusive $50 on em.e-mail me and I will give you his phone #Bill rockingchair03@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 12, 2003 Share Posted October 12, 2003 But is there anyplace to buy a "Classic Coke" in Paso Robles...?Pete Hartmann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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