1929 Fargo Express Panel Update

[Jack Bennett]

23 hours ago, 30DodgePanel said:

Again. Wes Rinella posted this on the Dodge Brothers section a few years back. Not sure how to copy and paste the link to the thread from my phone but if you go to the DB section and search “1929 Fargo Packet” it will come up. Both the Packet and Clipper should have the same dash design. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh…………Wow………..Thanks for the photo!

This format of the gauge layout on this photo matches that of my Fargo perfectly. 
I had absolutely no idea that the cab of the truck was so luxurious, and it really brings home how poorly the years of neglect treated mine.

There is no way, even if given a million years to do so, that I could ever get the dash of my old truck looking so pristine, but it is a target upon which to aim for one hellacious winter project.

Thanks again for the photo, the thought in posting it, and the help it offers me toward planning future projects.

I have decided that the Fargo will/may/probably/possibly/well I hope so anyway, be my final old car project, and this gives me something to do for the next hundred years.

Jack

Edited June 22 by Jack Bennett (see edit history)

[Jack Bennett]

Thinking back to the time I brought the Willys home, I was beside myself with grief and anger about the recent loss of my wife, and totally distraught over her death.

The Willys was a terribly miserable car and the interior had been destroyed by mold, rot, water, rust and was totally rat eaten.

The only part of the interior, remaining, and recognizable as such, was the springs of the back seat, and even they were badly rusted and under a pile of collapsed wood and rotten material from the roof. The seat springs could not be moved because the pile of composted upholstery material and forty or fifty years of rat poop had solidified into a mass resembling compost, and the seat had became part of the rusted floor boards and rear wall of the cab.

The windows were all shattered and the only remnants of the wood linings of the doors was shards of rotten wood and some rusted screws.

The car smelled so badly of decayed wood, fabric, rat feces and urine it made staying inside the car for more than a couple minutes, without gagging, impossible.

Being the first of my old cars was a fortunate break for the Willys because the spot previously occupied by my wife’s car was vacant, so it had a warm and dry place to rest, and recover, from its very first day.

As the cleanup and restoration work progressed on the Willys I formed some sort of understanding regarding how it must have felt as it slipped into its state of utter decay, and I actually started the process of restoring my mind along with the car.

Loss of a close loved one leaves a vacancy in your social life in that makes it increasingly hard to open up to people, and it is very harmful to keep the sadness and sorrow bottled up in your mind.

Probably the worse part of suddenly being alone is loss of anyone who can understand your grief without, they, themselves, becoming opinionated, and feeling a need to offer suggestions about beginning a healing process.

Groucho Marx once asked a woman what advice she’d give a man who wished he could experience childbirth. Her reply was that she’d tell him to try and pass a watermelon as a stool, and then reconsider.

Talking to the old Willys produced equally productive advice (cars don’t talk) and a sort of friendship developed and I began the process of really  enjoying the time I spent working on the car, and watching it return to health  was becoming a source of personal pleasure in the absence of any other.

Many dark nights was spent in the garage, armed with a cold MGD, I could sit in the now upholstered and fully mobile Willys and listen to it tell me about the time the young lovers found their intimate sides on his front seat, and when the slightly older couple discussed the settlement as they drove to the lawyers to finalize their divorce.

Without added drama, I learned about the trips to the doctors office to learn the bad news regarding progress of the ultimately fatal disease, and the lilt of concealed compassion when told about the mad dash, through t the darkness of night, over badly rutted roads, and the final sense of wonderment and exuberance as the new baby was born in the safety and security of the hospital waiting room.

And then came the 1923 Dodge Brothers Roadster, a whole new set, and sort, of stories, and the sheer pleasure of hearing a long dead engine hum as the car experienced a new life for the first time in seventy years.

Now the Fargo is nearing the state that it too can tell its story, and when completed, I am certain we will have some tales to swap too.

People are great conversationalists, and they are essential to keeping a healthy self image and confidence alive and thriving.

But………our old cars aren’t too bad at it either……….

Jack

 

 

Edited June 22 by Jack Bennett (see edit history)

[Jack Bennett]

On 3/25/2024 at 12:54 AM, 1912 Minerva said:

Great find Jack! Would you possibly consider a clear varnish over the top of that original lettering? It would preserve the history yet still have a shiny finish to match whatever other fresh painting you do.  As you say, being able to show off the past history of the vehicle's use is invaluable.

Hi Minerva……..A first step, only one of many, regarding reanimation of the Fargo, is trying to preserve enough of the truck to eventually begin the renewal of cosmetics and restoration of the authenticity of the truck.

I am a impulse buyer, and as I see the projects which lay ahead, I buy materials so that when that step arrives I am prepared to begin work without the delay of some extensive, and time consuming shopping trips.

Accordingly, I have bought a three part clear coat to be mixed, and applied after I have applied band aids to the trucks many hurts.

I will post some photos as the work progresses.

Jack

 

[Jack Bennett]

In a few days I hope to have the brake parts I need to make the Fargo a free ranging truck.

A major problem though is the vast difference between the way the accelerator and the starter are connected to the engine.

Replacing the original 25” head engine with the later model 23” head model necessitated moving the engine back 7” from the front mount position of the new engine, but the bell housing of the new engine is quite a bit shorter than the original engine.

Today, using the frame of a cast off recliner chair and some real serious MGD indulgence, I now have the floor boards cut, the accelerator pedal working, and am just a smidgen from having the starter working. 
Hopefully, tomorrow being Sunday, and a no mail day, I’ll be able to finish the starter pedal, connect the new voltage regulator, to bring the battery fully on line, and get the auxiliary fuel tank installed and connected.

Rhen, if the mail gods smile on me Monday, and my brake parts are delivered, the Fargo may make his first sojourn out of the back yard and move into the confines of the garage.

Jack

[30DodgePanel]

I'm not sure if this is fact, but it appears the 3 gauges in the center are reversed. Could this be a possible way to tell the two models Packet and Clipper apart? Or is it possible we have two different year models and we're witnessing a change in design layout of the dash?

 

Wes Rinella's 1929 Packet is on the left so I wonder if this is further evidence that yours was a Clipper (along with other indicators previously discussed IE your original engine a Chrysler 65, frame, exterior body length and other factors). I've not studied the dash boards on the Fargo, but will dig a bit deeper to see if there are any concrete answers as time permits. And for the record, I had never noticed this difference until you posted this recent photo of your dash, I just always assumed they were the same. I realize you posted photos of it in the past, but because of my idiotic assumption, I simply never paid much attention to it. Since there is so little info available for the Fargos, this may prove to be a vital piece of evidence to distinguish more differences between the two models once a more in depth study is complete. Very interesting to say the least.

 

Great progress btw. Keep up the good work

 

 

                                          Packet                                                                                                  Clipper ?

 

 

Edited June 23 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[Jack Bennett]

29 minutes ago, 30DodgePanel said:

I'm not sure if this is fact, but it appears the 3 gauges in the center are reversed. Could this be a possible way to tell the two models Packet and Clipper apart? Or is it possible we have two different year models and we're witnessing a change in design layout of the dash?

 

Wes Rinella's 1929 Packet is on the left so I wonder if this is further evidence that yours was a Clipper (along with other indicators previously discussed IE your original engine a Chrysler 65, frame, exterior body length and other factors). I've not studied the dash boards on the Fargo, but will dig a bit deeper to see if there are any concrete answers as time permits. And for the record, I had never noticed this difference until you posted this recent photo of your dash, I just always assumed they were the same. I realize you posted photos of it in the past, but because of my idiotic assumption, I simply never paid much attention to it. Since there is so little info available for the Fargos, this may prove to be a vital piece of evidence to distinguish more differences between the two models once a more in depth study is complete. Very interesting to say the least.

 

Great progress btw. Keep up the good work

 

 

                                          Packet                                                                                                  Clipper ?

 

 

By George Dave. I never noticed that either and I have spent hours looking at that panel.

Again, I have no paperwork on the truck and it could be a 28, 29 or 30, and it could have been a Clipper and bastardized with Packet parts over the years. Or, a Packet which was altered using Clipper parts.

As the truck comes together, and I fabricate the structural parts, I now realize that the truck had became a parts truck, and the only way I find out something is missing is to make the parts surrounding it, and finding it impossible to connect them without the missing piece.

I am curious about the wheel size because, at least the rear wheels, are just too small for the truck. There is room, if the axle was moved a bit to the rear, to fit a hefty set of dual wheels there.

Well Sir; I expect the truck will be around for at least a few more decades, and so long as it hides information, it earns its keep and is a source of pleasure even when it is resting.

Thanks for your interest and input, it sure keeps the hobby fun!
Jack

[30DodgePanel]

30 minutes ago, Jack Bennett said:

 

I am curious about the wheel size because, at least the rear wheels, are just too small for the truck. 

some info that might help answer a few of the questions you may have regarding wheels and tire size. 

You should have Kelsey-Hayes 789 or 789A for rim part # 12928 (same used on my 3/4 ton). IF they are smaller and from another vehicle you should be able to tell at this point.

 

 

Does yours have the grooved cut outs?

Edited June 23 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[Jack Bennett]

On 6/23/2024 at 7:26 AM, 30DodgePanel said:

I'm not sure if this is fact, but it appears the 3 gauges in the center are reversed. Could this be a possible way to tell the two models Packet and Clipper apart? Or is it possible we have two different year models and we're witnessing a change in design layout of the dash?

 

Wes Rinella's 1929 Packet is on the left so I wonder if this is further evidence that yours was a Clipper (along with other indicators previously discussed IE your original engine a Chrysler 65, frame, exterior body length and other factors). I've not studied the dash boards on the Fargo, but will dig a bit deeper to see if there are any concrete answers as time permits. And for the record, I had never noticed this difference until you posted this recent photo of your dash, I just always assumed they were the same. I realize you posted photos of it in the past, but because of my idiotic assumption, I simply never paid much attention to it. Since there is so little info available for the Fargos, this may prove to be a vital piece of evidence to distinguish more differences between the two models once a more in depth study is complete. Very interesting to say the least.

 

Great progress btw. Keep up the good work

 

 

                                          Packet                                                                                                  Clipper ?

 

 

Still trying to digest the enormous amount of information you sent me.

A major problem I have, which is also a Godsend as a aging retiree, when I try to read, and remember, a whole lot of stuff, I tend to forget what I read in the beginning before I get to the end.

That’s really pretty cool because it makes everything a new learning experience, and I don’t punch a time clock anymore so there is no one I need to impress with how smart I am.

A question though…….I notice that the Fargo trucks appear to have been equipped with shock absorbers.

Well Sir, although my old Fargo has some rather exotic mounts on each end of the spring pile up, I can find no indication there was ever shocks on the truck.

Am I reading this wrong, or is the shock absorbers built into the rather decorative, and extremely over built spring shackles?

Jack

[1912 Minerva]

On 6/23/2024 at 4:23 AM, Jack Bennett said:

Hi Minerva……..A first step, only one of many, regarding reanimation of the Fargo, is trying to preserve enough of the truck to eventually begin the renewal of cosmetics and restoration of the authenticity of the truck.

I am a impulse buyer, and as I see the projects which lay ahead, I buy materials so that when that step arrives I am prepared to begin work without the delay of some extensive, and time consuming shopping trips.

Accordingly, I have bought a three part clear coat to be mixed, and applied after I have applied band aids to the trucks many hurts.

I will post some photos as the work progresses.

Jack

 

That's great Jack! I look forward to seeing the results. I wish I was a bit more impulsive at times...I tend to prevaricate and procrastinate before finally deciding on a course of action.  I find this is a great way to make a slow job even slower!

[30DodgePanel]

17 hours ago, Jack Bennett said:

although my old Fargo has some rather exotic mounts on each end of the spring pile up, I can find no indication there was ever shocks on the truck.

Am I reading this wrong, or is the shock absorbers built into the rather decorative, and extremely over built spring shackles?

 

I doubt you'll find anything like a modern shock that we're used to seeing.

It's hard to tell, but I believe those are the lovejoy shock absorbers in the photo below. I've not studied the early lovejoys, but found several styles when doing a google search.

 

Maybe try to get us a few close-up photos (inside and out of any connection points or connecting arms or how it ties into the springs) with a bit more clarity to confirm? They probably have a manufacturers name, makers mark or part # for even further clarification in case you ever need to know.

 

And again (another new discovery for the memory ), the frame will be 6" x 2 1/2" flanges (I believe these are also called the top rails of the frame seen in photo below), and there should also be five cross members. This is all assuming of course that it's a original unaltered Clipper frame. 

 

 

Here is the article snippet with description. I'm only posting it again so you don't have to search everywhere for the article while trying to compare with the photo. Also makes it easier for the reader to follow along.

 

 

If you took any pictures of your frame while the body was off, it might be worth it to find that photo and count the crossmembers.

 

 

 

Edited June 25 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[30DodgePanel]

Here is a overview showing the four cross members on a Packet. Not sure where the fifth would be on a Clipper, so this will be a good learning experience if you can confirm and post a photo of where the 5th one is, and will tell us IF you have a Clipper.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 25 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[30DodgePanel]

Yet another dash on a Packet. Note this is from a first edition Aug 1928 Instruction Manual for the 1/2 ton Packet. 

I'm only posting it to show there were indeed other variations of the dash board layout. BTW, there are ways of tracing down the approximate dates for those changes if you'd like to know. Commercial Car Journals and other period literature good tools for finding out what month those changes may have occurred. As you know, the changes in the early days were constant and random. I love the research so it's a lot of fun for me. I'm still in the process of hunting down when those changes may have occurred but we're talking about a 4 years window times a minimum or 12 monthly issues, sometimes weekly issues of those publications so you can imagine the time it takes to find those answers. I'm still working a fulltime job so I'll certainly continue searching as I get time. More to come...

 

 

As I mentioned in a previous PM, a few years ago I had the opportunity to purchase a Clipper Instruction Book. I passed on it at the time, but now I really wished I would have purchased it. I'd venture to say someone on the AACA forums purchased that book, so maybe start a thread asking for photos of the dash of a Clipper from that Instruction Book? Just a thought, but if you can find someone who owns that Clipper manual it may be more help to you than any of us can offer as we're simply trying our best to "fill in the blanks" the best we can.

 

 

 

Edited June 25 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[Jack Bennett]

6 hours ago, 30DodgePanel said:

 

I doubt you'll find anything like a modern shock that we're used to seeing.

It's hard to tell, but I believe those are the lovejoy shock absorbers in the photo below. I've not studied the early lovejoys, but found several styles when doing a google search.

 

Maybe try to get us a few close-up photos (inside and out of any connection points or connecting arms or how it ties into the springs) with a bit more clarity to confirm? They probably have a manufacturers name, makers mark or part # for even further clarification in case you ever need to know.

 

And again (another new discovery for the memory ), the frame will be 6" x 2 1/2" flanges (I believe these are also called the top rails of the frame seen in photo below), and there should also be five cross members. This is all assuming of course that it's a original unaltered Clipper frame. 

 

 

Here is the article snippet with description. I'm only posting it again so you don't have to search everywhere for the article while trying to compare with the photo. Also makes it easier for the reader to follow along.

 

 

If you took any pictures of your frame while the body was off, it might be worth it to find that photo and count the crossmembers.

 

 

 

Wow!

The thing with these antique machines is that they just never stop giving up things to learn.

Of course I must refer back to the “oil rectifier” and “sleeve valve” construction of the engine in my Willys.

I am still trying to integrate the way my Dodge has no intake manifold and the combination starter/generator.

Now you have given me a few more things to feast my mind on with your “invar strut pistons”, “impulse neutralizer” and “”semi-automatic ignition”.

It is a certainty that it is impossible for a fan of these marvels of machinery to go to bed with a hungry mind.

Thanks again for the information and the thought in providing it.

Jack

[30DodgePanel]

2 hours ago, Jack Bennett said:

it is impossible for a fan of these marvels of machinery to go to bed with a hungry mind.

you sleep? 
 

I wish I could find all the answers so I could get some rest.
 

They say songwriters have a pen and notepad beside their bed just in case…. I find it works good in the research aspect of the hobby too. 

[Jack Bennett]

20 hours ago, 30DodgePanel said:

you sleep? 
 

I wish I could find all the answers so I could get some rest.
 

They say songwriters have a pen and notepad beside their bed just in case…. I find it works good in the research aspect of the hobby too. 

I wonder if keeping a iPad handy to take photos of things you want to study later counts?

[Jack Bennett]

Most of the restaurants, here in Washington state anyway, offering an all you can eat buffet format, are now closed.

I suppose this has to do with what everyone should have been born to understand, that given a excessive amount of anything, the average individual will abuse this over abundance, and eventually harm themselves from over indulgence.

What we begin as the hobby of “old car collection and restoration” has the propensity to fit into the category of things we initially begin doing to escape the tedium of paid employment, and through our inclination to gorge ourselves on the over abundance of anything, allow it to become another source of tedium sometimes worse than that we hoped to escape.

In less than a month I will become a octogenarian, and, while that may be a laudable feat in terms of avoiding a fatal episode, it has a price extracted in ways considered as “normal effects of aging”.

Regardless, mom nature may know little or nothing about antique cars, but she sure knows that it takes a bit more than a tad of wind or lack of daylight to stop a old die hard from tightening that last bolt or cleaning that last inch of windshield prior to calling it a day.

”Mite”, the name I have chosen for the 95 year old Fargo Express Panel Delivery I have adopted as a reanimation project is as addictive as Buffalo chicken wings, those tasty baked beans and the abundantly breaded pork chops, served on the lines of the most popular buffet restaurants (previously) in business.

Realizing that it is a hobby, and not a source of income, I often meter out what I hope to accomplish on the truck depending on a reasonable amount of time and resources I intend on expending during that single session.

That means that there must also be the expectation, and the amount of time it will require, to go back, disassemble, and redo a lot of the things I do more haphazardly to close a space from the weather or see what parts I need to fabricate to complete the assembly as it originally was.

I am now recovering the lower seat I bought for the truck, and have nearly completed building a seat back for the destroyed one I got with the truck.

That means that my goals of permanently closing the cab to the weather prior to installation of the newly reupholstered seats, new floor boards and a (now working) instrument panel, and am now reconstructing the recently disassembled truck cab and roof.

And, again, the rain began to fall in earnest.

Jack

 

 

[Jack Bennett]

Thanks to all for your kind responses.

A few things makes the hobby of ritual blood letting, contortionist and non-certified clinician in the diagnosis of sprains, dislocations, fractures and blunt force trauma injuries, aka……..”Antique car restoration”…….so rewarding is not only the opportunity to preserve a piece of history, it also affords a channel to share it with others. 
And, in my case, it makes me think, which can be a later in life challenge for some of us mellowed out fellows. 
It never ceases to amaze me that these old machines do so well at concealing the beauty of their design, the ingenuity of their construction and the true nature of their reason for existing until the process of restoring them has reached some level of completion.

Yesterday I began the process of closing the Fargo against the ravages of the weather in what seemed like a pretty cut and dried job of cutting and assembling a puzzle of wooden pieces.

However, as has been revealed in previous posts discussing the progress on the Fargo, regarding the wheels, shocks, instrument panel, and so forth, what is missing doesn’t become apparent until a vacant spot materializes in a component being reconstructed, and then the bulb flashes on saying, “That won’t work because a/that/those pieces have to be made to fill a now vacant spot”.

It is all too quickly becoming apparent that I was way off base in thinking the truck was an austere vehicle, made to fill a role left when Chrysler Corp. bought out Dodge Brothers, and relocated the manufacture of their light/medium duty trucks to the DeSoto plant in Canada.
Thinking this, I had envisioned the truck as a bare bones truck, designed for sale in a market geared totally toward export, and built more as a effort to, using trial and error indicators of what did, and didn’t work in their new line of trucks, than building a truck to appeal to a audience who sought a truck which was durable, dependable, economical, capable, and…..had eye appeal.

Now that the interior of the cab is coming together, and it is the roots of the roof structure, it is becoming Chrystal clear that these trucks were not shabbily built boxes of wood, thrown together with nails and some sheet metal.

As I progress through the reconstruction I am spending nearly as much time disassembling work I had thought was complete, to make both structural as well as decorative trim which had totally disappeared as aging and rot reduced the structure to muck, and washed it away.

At this point I have to advise the “purist’s” that the following content may cause extreme discomfort and maybe even a impulse to regurgitate your last meal. Accordingly, I must warn you to proceed at your own risk.

A continual question on the forum is “How much will it cost/How much is it worth” and I have to cite the $2.50, poorly made, and totally disgusting, snow comes we bought while touring Niagara Falls.

The choice of being placed in a situation which mandates spending half a thousand dollars for a antiquated engine part, or even a few dollars for a mostly missing manometer, for a soon to fail radiator, is 100% voluntary.

Accordingly, I look at my old cars as a hobby, rather than a investment, and whether or not the paint is NOS from a long forgotten stash of 1923 vintage black, or a totally correct wheel stud which runs a $100.00 with S&H is irrelevant, since I will buy neither.

Instead, to continue the agenda started above, one of the pleasures I get in doing the old car stuff is the challenge, and opportunity to return the vehicles as you would view them in the same light as you would expect to find a older car you used as a daily driver today.

This means that the dent goes untended for a while and a speck of rust on the inside of a bumper is really no cause for concern.

Likewise, the material I use in reconstruction of these machines is, in most part, reclaimed from cast off furniture and wood used in pallets, which is available, for free, by the truckloads, everywhere, and everyday of the week.

And, the couches have real leather, copious quantities of metal straps, screws, nuts, bolts and toggles not found in Lowe’s or Home Depot, or TSC, and the amount of nifty metal pieces found in a old recliner is mind boggling.

For instance, I was stymied by the method I was expected to use to attach a early 1900’s era claxon horn to a 1951 Dodge truck engine, installed in a 1929 Fargo Express panel truck, without making it obvious that I was insane or trying to compete with Jay Leno so far as being vehicularly exotic.

One of the metal pieces, which allow the raising of the foot rest on a cast off, decades old recliner chair provided a quick answer after drilling only a single bolt hole.

Photos will follow……..eventually.

Jack

 

 

 

[Jack Bennett]

Ok……all you old MOPAR fans, here is your chance to really help.

Yesterday I was starting the engine, I think is a 1951 Dodge Pilothouse,1/2 ton, 230ci, in-line 6 cylinder, which I exchanged for the original engine in my 1929 Fargo Express panel truck.

The engine done a rotation and then stopped turning and started making noises like it had seized up.

I checked and found that the crankshaft still rotated smoothly when turned over by hand, and decided the starter motor had failed.

I removed the starter, a 6 volt starter on which the bendix operated by foot pressure rather than a electric solenoid.

Upon disassembly I found that the bushing had failed and the armature had been damaged when it contacted the field coil.

This starter has been a real headache since I began work on the truck because, being foot operated, rather than electrically, it has to have a manually operated starter button fitted to work with the accelerator and brake pedals on the newly crafted wooden floor boards. This is a near impossibility because the floorboards of the Fargo are considerably more narrow, and apparently much shorter than those in the Pilothouse were, and there just isn’t enough room to stick a starter button between the accelerator and the brake pedal.

So, at bare minimum, the six volt, manually operated starter will need a complete, and probably pretty costly, rebuild.

Since the first plans were made to fabricate the new floor boards, replacement of the foot operated starter with an electric one using a solenoid has been on my mind. 
But, the originality, and apparent good condition of the (manual) starter already on the engine seemed like a waste.

But, since the starter needs replacement now, it seems like a excellent opportunity to replace the manual starter with one which can be started with a electrical switch rather than one with a foot pedal.

Problem is that I cannot find a electrically operated starter motor that is compatible to that straight six cylinder, 1951 dodge, 218 or 230 CI engine.

So, calling all MOPAR experts who can advise me as to what other makes or models of vehicles which use that engine, I.e. DeSoto, Chrysler, Plymouth, etc., use a electric, rather than a manual starter that I can substitute the one I need to replace with.

Any leads will be appreciated.

And, changing the electrical system from a positive ground 6 volt system to a negative ground 12 volt system, and replacement of the generator with a alternator is a very real consideration to accommodate another starter.

Jack

[Dave39MD]

Not a Mopar expert but there was a kit supplied years ago that converted the foot starter to a solenoid. I had some but sold them so there may still be some out there. Not sure it would work on your application.

 

Dave

Edited July 11 by Dave39MD (see edit history)

[Jack Bennett]

On 7/11/2024 at 3:10 AM, Dave39MD said:

Not a Mopar expert but there was a kit supplied years ago that converted the foot starter to a solenoid. I had some but sold them so there may still be some out there. Not sure it would work on your application.

 

Dave

Sorry about the delay in posting a response to your comment Dave.

I haven’t visited this particular thread for a while and I have fallen behind in answering new responses.

I do, sincerely, appreciate your input, and it does confirm that there is no place other than a forum like AACA that such information is shared.

I wish I had just taken the day off from messing with the Fargo, and maybe the 6 volt starter would have not have not went south.

Initially, when I first discovered the extent of damage, and deterioration, to the electrical system of the truck, a 6-12 volt conversion was considered as the most logical and economical way of replacing the entire system.

But, I have two other vehicles which have 6 volt, positive ground systems and one other (1923) with a 12 volt, positive ground system and I can really notice no difference in how well they perform their job.

It seems like such a waste to discard a perfectly good, period correct, generator, coil and have to modify other 6 volt things, such as the horn, to allay the problems related to difficulty locating a starter switch.

I can buy a new 6 volt starter which may  fit the engine I replaced the original with, but the process of finding out can sure sap the fun from the hobby in a single, swift, swoop.

A direct replacement for the stomp activated starter will run somewhere between $250.00 and $500.00 to have rebuilt and may include the cost of a solenoid to convert it to a key operated starter. 
The information you have provided gives me a new route to search which may allow me to keep the OEM 6 volt, stomp activated starter and still finish up the floor boards in a manner which doesn’t interfere with safe operation of the truck or aesthetics of the new floor boards.

Thanks a bunch Dave……I am glad that Google searches are free because I will be using it quite a bit to follow up on the feasibility of using this thing rather than buying a new electrical system.

Jack

 

bad.

 

[Dave39MD]

The only problem I am having trouble figuring out is how would the starter drive gear mesh with the fly wheel without damage.

 

Dave

[Jack Bennett]

Sometime ago 30DodgePanel presented me with the suggestion that the truck, I believe to be a 1929 Fargo Express panel delivery, 1/2 ton “Packet”, was actually a 3/4 ton truck, manufactured also under the same conditions as the “Packet” but sold as the “Clipper”.

Naturally, after considering the rather flimsy 18” wheels, I stuck to my guns and persisted in believing I had bought a half ton truck.

However, with gratitude and some research, I now believe I do  have a 3/4 ton Clipper, as the defining difference between the Packet and the Clipper was the engine size.

These trucks were built exclusively for export, in the DeSoto plant in Canada, and Chrysler Corporation never went to any lengths to provide much technical data on the trucks, or the wide variety of engines they used.

As a fact, what may have been part of a decisive marketing scheme, Chrysler Corporation only labeled the numerous engine types used in the Fargo trucks, which were only manufactured for three years, as “Our engine”, and never labeled them as being Dodge, Plymouth, Continental, Lycoming, Maxwell……or……you get the drift.

However, they clearly listed that the “packet” came standard with a four cylinder engine and the “Clipper” was equipped with a six cylinder engine.

My Fargo truck had a six cylinder engine, and, in spite of the difference in tire size (the Clipper came stock with 20” wheels), I am now convinced that the truck is, indeed, a 3/4 ton truck.

Now the meat of this post……

Tomorrow the new solenoid operated starter I ordered to replace the floor stomp starter should be here.

I have had to replace the steering wheel in the truck with one similar in appearance to the original, but was salvaged only after destroying the gear box and shaft it was originally mounted to. And the problem here is that the tube running from the steering wheel to the steering gear box accommodates the wiring for the headlights and is routed through a rotary switch which was mounted to the gear box. The tube and it’s attaching plate was permanently attached to the steering wheel, and the plate had to be disassembled from the steering wheel, and this necessitated removal of the gear box and cutting the tube in several places.

This is the crux of a more vexing problem because the Fargo also has a switch to control the headlights running from the steering wheel to a similar rotary switch mounted on the steering gear box.

But the Fargo has a second tube which controls the spark and throttle which also terminates in a mechanical system of clevis’s which mount to the steering gear box.

The tubes, which were installed in the steering wheel of the truck were too long to remove from the steering column without removing the entire steering column, gear box and pitman arm, which I chose not to do out of the knowledge I’d probably do more damage as I attempted to free the mechanism than I would do if I destroyed the switch and tubes while preserving the steering column, gear box and pitman arm.

Anyway, I learned that the headlights was controlled by this switch, which included a bezel mounted lever on the steering wheel which served to brighten and dim the headlights.

”So”, thinks I, “there need not be neither a headlight switch, or dimmer switch found elsewhere in the truck”. But, as I removed the rust and debris while making the dash panel usable, I see a pull switch clearly marked with a “L”, which I interpret to be “lights”, and, as I replace the rotted and missing wood of the floor boards, I discover what must be a dimmer switch.

By now you must be tired of getting just the smell, so I will move on to the “pile”.

I have the original starter to the truck, and it is clearly contains a screw type Bendix, as compared to the manually operated one attached to a foot operated one used on the starter I got with the 1950 Dodge Pilothouse engine I put in the truck.

That tells me that there had to be some sort of switch which was used to activate the electrically operated starter, and, since the entire keyed ignition system was missing, I must only assume the truck had a key start type starting system.

But, the truck also has a foot switch mounted on the floorboards to the left of the drivers foot. This switch is clearly a push-on, push-on switch which tells me it is a headlight dimmer switch rather than a floor mounted starter switch.

That doesn’t make good sense since the headlight dimmer switch is included in the switch located on the steering gear box, and activated by a rotating switch located on the steering wheel bezel.

I need someone who has a functioning Fargo truck tell me where I should be going to keep this starter “original”, and free up my time to write lengthy, and wordy spiels rather than prepare rebuttals to purists who can also do a whole bunch of agitating on a rather mundane subject.

Help please……and thanks for the solid gold input 30DodgePanel.

Jack

 

Edited July 22 by Jack Bennett (see edit history)

[Jack Bennett]

On 6/25/2024 at 3:51 AM, 30DodgePanel said:

Yet another dash on a Packet. Note this is from a first edition Aug 1928 Instruction Manual for the 1/2 ton Packet. 

I'm only posting it to show there were indeed other variations of the dash board layout. BTW, there are ways of tracing down the approximate dates for those changes if you'd like to know. Commercial Car Journals and other period literature good tools for finding out what month those changes may have occurred. As you know, the changes in the early days were constant and random. I love the research so it's a lot of fun for me. I'm still in the process of hunting down when those changes may have occurred but we're talking about a 4 years window times a minimum or 12 monthly issues, sometimes weekly issues of those publications so you can imagine the time it takes to find those answers. I'm still working a fulltime job so I'll certainly continue searching as I get time. More to come...

 

 

As I mentioned in a previous PM, a few years ago I had the opportunity to purchase a Clipper Instruction Book. I passed on it at the time, but now I really wished I would have purchased it. I'd venture to say someone on the AACA forums purchased that book, so maybe start a thread asking for photos of the dash of a Clipper from that Instruction Book? Just a thought, but if you can find someone who owns that Clipper manual it may be more help to you than any of us can offer as we're simply trying our best to "fill in the blanks" the best we can.

 

 

 

Hi Dave……this photo has me wondering about the switch location of those used to control the operation of the headlights, starter and the throttle.

Is it possible you have the entire photo showing the names of the items which appear at the lines end?

If you do, I have an Egyptian friend whom I think can provide you with a set of original hieroglyphics showing exactly what you will need to take on your journey into the after-life.
Jack

 

[Jack Bennett]

On 7/19/2024 at 3:38 AM, Dave39MD said:

The only problem I am having trouble figuring out is how would the starter drive gear mesh with the fly wheel without damage.

 

Dave

Hi Dave……..Your question presents a question. 
I read, and reread, every post made to the threads I originate because I learn more from them than watching some politics on television.

It does take some time for me to respond because my brain was assembled before they came factory equipped with synchros, and most certainly before gears were selected through use of a dash mounted push button, automatic thingy.

That said, I wish you would plain what you are referring to because I can’t tell if you are making reference to your own post regarding a electric starter solenoid, or another post stating something different.

I hope you don’t think I’m think I’m trying to be cynical, or more poignant, a “smart a**” here because I really don’t understand your question, and if it concerns you, it concerns me too.

Regardless of whether it is operated through use of a foot operated fork, and a manually operated switch, or a electrically operated solenoid, every starter drive is equipped with a one way clutch and a device, I call a bendix, which allows the starter drive gear to engage the flywheel (which is stopped) and spin it clear when the speed of the flywheel exceeds the speed of the armature. Hopefully, trying to engage a starter drive gear with an already spinning flywheel…..called a “Ring gear” by some”…….will result in a momentary clash before the starter drive gear is retracted by the bendix.

However, holding the starter switch engaged, or keeping the floor stomp button depressed after the engine starts will keep the drive gear engaged, and ultimately destroy the starter and/or the ring gear.

But, my case was exactly reversed whereby I tried to put a floor stomp starter in a truck which didn’t have enough clearance between the floor panels and the starter yoke attachment point on the starter.

This caused the yoke, which normally pushes the bendix forward to engage the ring gear, to be pressed backward, which moved the bendix clutch into contact with the starter armature, thus, destroying the front of the armature and ruining the starter.

I know that this may be redundant of something you already know, and are feeling a bit foolish by reading such stupid stuff. But, because it is so very stupid, it is worth repeating for anyone who doesn’t care to spend a cool $300.00 to replace a other wise perfectly good starter.

And that, my friend, is why we spend time reading comments on the forum, rather than spending time, flat on our back under a 95 year old truck, changing a starter which should have lasted another 95 years, had we not been so ignorant.

Jack

Edited July 29 by Jack Bennett (see edit history)

[Dave39MD]

The device I had and showed a picture of in this post had no provision to ease the Bendix into the flywheel before the motor starts spinning. Both the foot and solenoid systems seem to do that before the main starter switch makes contact and spins the starter with the Bendix already engaged. Anyways I was mainly thinking out loud by typing. I have been completely wrong before and maybe once again!

 

Dave

[Jack Bennett]

25 minutes ago, Dave39MD said:

The device I had and showed a picture of in this post had no provision to ease the Bendix into the flywheel before the motor starts spinning. Both the foot and solenoid systems seem to do that before the main starter switch makes contact and spins the starter with the Bendix already engaged. Anyways I was mainly thinking out loud by typing. I have been completely wrong before and maybe once again!

 

Dave

Hi again Dave……..Not now, nor have I ever owned a judge’s black gown, or even been asked to determine whether something was done out of stupidity rather than ignorance.

However, I did have to gain some understanding between the two, and I learned a lot of people have done some really stupid things because they chose to remain ignorant and not ask a question.

If you read my post regarding the interchangeability of a MCH 6106 starter, which is equipped with a stomp activated switch, attached to a forks and bendix, and intended for use in a truck, with a MCH 6101 starter which can be used on a car also, and converted from a stomp activated starter to one operated by a solenoid, simply by removing the switch, lever and forks which (do) move the bendix forward.
The problem is that removal of the heavier contacts provided within the foot switch from the stomp starter also removes the ability of the driver to connect the low amperage circuitry of the cars wiring system to the the high amperage circuit required to activate the field coils of the starter. 
The solenoid or starter electrical switch does this without frying the ignition switch or dash mounted push button.

But, as in my case, working with a 1929 model vehicle, I may want to change from a stomp starter to a solenoid operated starter, and converting from a 6 volt to a 12 volt starter would be a perfect example of this, I may want to retain the original look of my floor boards by installing a foot activated switch which mimics the appearance of the stomp switch with the circuitry required by a solenoid operated starter.

Sorry about the run on……but, even at that I didn’t use 0000.01% of the words I know.

Jack

 

[ArticiferTom]

It was not uncommon to see a manual hi/low beam switch added  Especially if headlights were upgraded to sealed beams that clum/ steering switch could not handle . On my truck sealed beams were added along with two fused relays mounted on fire wall ,no doubt some of oldest i have seen , on a hand cut tin plate .

[Jack Bennett]

20 hours ago, ArticiferTom said:

It was not uncommon to see a manual hi/low beam switch added  Especially if headlights were upgraded to sealed beams that clum/ steering switch could not handle . On my truck sealed beams were added along with two fused relays mounted on fire wall ,no doubt some of oldest i have seen , on a hand cut tin plate .

Hi Tom……..Well,  have my new set of dash gauges, and am now better able to watch my oil pressure, water temp and amp meter. Not a accomplishment of Rushmore proportions, but a step forward in nursing the Fargo back to health.

I also have the new starter installed, and working, and it being electrically activated sure takes a lot of the drama out of starting the engine with the stomp starter and a piece of pipe (to work the lever).

That brings me back to the stock electrical system which may have been built into the truck.

It does have sealed beam headlights, and I do believe the dimmer switch was an original part of the truck. But, in a post pretty distant in the past, 30DodgePanel suggested that I ditch the aftermarket headlights presently on the truck and get some originals to replace them.

Until now this has been of little significance because the truck was so far from even being mobile, much less pretty or original.

But, your comment regarding the addition of the dimmer switch to accommodate upgrading to sealed beam head lights makes more sense when considering 30DodgePanel’s comment regarding the idea that the truck may have originally had incandescent headlight bulbs. 
I am 99% certain I will use the photo of the instrument panel to add a floor starter switch, in the location shown in the photo. It would be easier to add a key switch starter, but who takes the “easy” route while working on these old rigs?

A final question…….do you know if there is still an active member named Wes Rinella, He would be the one who originally posted the photo shared by 30DodgePanel, and made his last post to the forum in 2018. 
As I progress through the finalization of the body woodwork used in the Fargo, I believe I have arrived at the conclusion that the 1929 Fargo Express Panel’s all began their lives as trucks, and not necessarily panels or screen side delivery trucks……but were made into those configurations when special ordered as such.

On my particular truck, a Fargo Express Panel, it has became evident that the truck, in fact, had both a horizontal tail gate which ran across the bed and extended between the floor and the bottom of the panels used to form the panel body, (exactly as a pickup would), and vertical doors which ran from the top of the tailgate to the top of the box which makes up the panel bed.

I need to replace some brake lines to make the truck road worthy, but I fully intend on continuing my body reconstruction project by exploring this possibility during my cold weather endeavors.

Jack

Edited July 30 by Jack Bennett (see edit history)

[Jack Bennett]

On 6/18/2024 at 3:55 AM, 30DodgePanel said:

Hopefully this clears things up for anyone wanting to know the differences between the 1/2 ton Packet and the 3/4 ton Clipper.  They had more similarities than most of us realized.

 

Jack, I believe you have a Clipper, the following is why I believe that.

 

 

From a Operations & Maintenance Magazine Oct, 5 1928

 

 

 

Note the outer body length on the Clipper is 175" , but it appears both the 1/2 ton and 3/4 ton models were completely interchangeable so the wheelbase was probably the same on both models so you have to dig deeper into these bits of information to get a proper I.D. once and for all.

 

 

This next snippet is from Automotive Industries Sept 29, 1928 - Check your frame measurements especially, that will tell you what you have for sure. 
The 3/4 ton Dodge trucks used 2 1/2" hubs, 1/2 tons used 2 3/8" respectfully so I'm sure the clipper and packet did as well. If your frame matches these measurements then you definitely have a Clipper. 

 

 

 

Your original engine was a Chrysler 65 - Please save it, do not scrap.

 

 

 

Hi Dave…….. I realize this is a blast from the past, but, when working with a 95 year old truck, anything less than 3/4 of a century is recent.

I still have the original engine I took from the 29 Fargo Express, and it is complete from the pan to the distributor and the water pump to the bell housing.

And, since I am still ambulatory, I suppose I will last through another winter, and the possibility that I will start rebuild of this engine as a winter project is looming on the horizon as becoming a reality.

I suppose I have concluded that the engine is a Chrysler and of the sort used in the Chrysler “65” which points the direction for getting parts.

However, even if I am able to restore this engine to a condition which makes sense to put it back into the truck, a original problem with this still exists.

Unlike the 1950 Dodge flathead six cylinder I have now installed in the truck, which includes the pedals and shaft, with the throw out bearing, and its forks, as a part of the bell housing, rather than mounted on the transmission,  I still have no idea what the transmission or drive shaft originally installed in the truck even looked like.

That means I am still missing a complete brake and clutch pedal assembly, with mounting equipment, shaft, forks, throw out bearing and transmission as well as whatever connects the transmission to the differential.

So, I am asking that anyone who has experience with the set up of a 1929 Chrysler “65” and can help me with some photos, or even help me find a actual transmission/drive shaft would be appreciated in a monumental fashion.

Jack

Edited July 30 by Jack Bennett (see edit history)

[Jack Bennett]

On 6/16/2024 at 6:33 AM, JV Puleo said:

Jack, what are the brake lines made of? There were cars in the mid 30s that had copper lines but otherwise they were steel and I would be very leery of just cleaning them out. That will do as a test but they corrode from the inside so how they look isn't a good test of how good they are. Having identified the problem, I'd replace the lines, probably using a copper/nickel alloy. This stuff is readily available (albeit it not at NAPA) and will not corrode.

Hi JV………The brake line running from the (new) master cylinder is copper. It appears to have been replaced at some time over the past 90 years, and I made a new one to replace that.

The distribution system for provision of brake fluid to the four wheels is as confusing as is the statement that “The truck has no brake proportioning valve, but does include a device which does the job similar to one”…….which still hides from my sight.

Regardless, the “T” fitting, mounted under to floor boards and beneath/behind the seat, connects the line leading from the master cylinder to the frame to a steel line on the left, which is steel, and sent to another frame mounted “T” coupler which divides that line between the front wheels.

Each side of this “T” is also connected to a steel line, and these run through the fame and are connected to mounts which connect the steel lines to steel braid/rubber covered lines which connect to banjo fittings on the back of each wheel cylinder.

The rear brakes are serviced by another steel line which runs from the right leg of the “T”, in a meandering path inside, and outside the frame, to a point about 18” short of the top of the rear axle. There the steel line is coupled to another steel braid/rubber coated line which appears to duplicate the two lines connected to the front wheels.

This rubber line acts as a hinge to provide some flexibility in the hose which connects the steel line from the master cylinder to the point it connects to another “T” coupler mounted atop the rear axle housing. 
From this “T”, steel lines run from the left and right side of the fitting to each respective wheel cylinder where it is terminated in a banjo fitting.

I have rebuilt the wheel cylinders and replaced the master cylinder with a new one.

The line running from the master cylinder to the first “T” was stressed and showed signs of leaking, was replaced with a new one, but the steel lines and their fittings seemed satisfactory after a good cleaning/inspection and were reused.

The rubber hoses were badly rotted but are, are, at very least, present for measurement and use as a pattern. They will be replaced post haste, and this should restore the brakes to a relative level of dependability and safety.

Were the truck to be used as a daily driver, or even expected to be used on major roads, I would have the brake linings and springs replaced, but if I do that now, I won’t have anything to do later.

The rear axel hub puller works absolutely fabulous, and anyone needing its service is welcome (as a loaner) is welcome to use it if they are willing to pay two way postage.

Jack

[ArticiferTom]

the three brake hose are readily available ebay ans mopars vendors . This is side view of 29 looking for gate photos .

[Jack Bennett]

13 hours ago, ArticiferTom said:

the three brake hose are readily available ebay ans mopars vendors . This is side view of 29 looking for gate photos .

Hi Tom……I spent a good part of yesterday at the local car parts store, many of which assured me they stocked the exact brake hoses I need, looking ata bunch of hoses, about a pencil diameter, to replace some hoses about 5/8” in diameter. Right length, wrong threads……..and I sure wish I had a chassis like this to have started my truck with.

I have done considerable business with Andy Burnbaum, and have called them to check on their ability to provide the hoses I need.

It was a pain having to take a hose back off the truck to get some measurements, but I now have them, and think I can find something.

Thanks for your helpful input, it is appreciated.

Jack

 

[Jack Bennett]

RE; “Restoration” vs “Restoration”….

Were I a bit younger, I could not recall what a brand new 1951 Plymouth Cambridge or a 1955 Ford Crown. Victoria looked like.

Nor could I remember what these cars looked like as they were placed in daily use, and became a essential part of the owners life.

But, I’m not a “bit” younger, and I have watched, minute by minute, as the paint dulled, the chrome dimmed and the upholstery fabric became stained and torn. And I have seen semi-trucks, stacked several crushed cars high, with the corpses of these same cars as they completed their lives and headed for that huge crusher in the sky.

I have seen countless new cars, equally as many old cars and have learned there is a distinct difference between the two.

A new car has all the triggers one needs to pull to fire off those peptides and pheromones to make the potential owner visualize their own image as one who is fast, flashy, sexy, and appealing to the object of their intended affections.

A old car may smell like grandpa’s pipe smoke, little sis’s soiled diapers or has the marks in the paint where mom threw the rock at dad when he showed up from a night on the town.

The memories are recorded on the windshields of the old car which makes it easy to recall that night when she needed to be rushed to the hospital, and the rush of relief when you were told it “was a boy” or it “was a girl”, and both the baby and your wife were doing fine.

The windshield of the new car says nothing about the dark and stormy night, the mud showers blocking its view as passing cars sprayed their muck, and it makes no mention of the anxiety you felt as you negotiated that sharp, and slick curve.

Restoration to a state better than new is the goal of a person who buys a recluse from a barn, and visualizes a car which evokes the new car memories, or makes a really shiny weight to hold the garage floor in place.

On the other hand, restoration of that recluse may require no more than bringing it to a point that the memories it holds can be shared, and the 16 layer deep paint job and shiny chrome actually detracts from the message the car is trying to send.

Old cars are old memories, old memories are a lot of places and people, and can actually act as a Time Machine to make us appreciate the times and technology recorded in their windshields.

[Jack Bennett]

Well, it’s a done deal and three new brake hoses are in the mail for my Fargo.

I found the company which can provide them on eBay, and they can send me the exact hoses I need at a r price I can live with.

If you have a need for brake hoses for your antique car I highly recommend these folks as good people who offer their products at a fair price.

Jack

 

[PFindlay]

Jack, I enjoy your musings and commend you for taking on such a project.  The progress you've made is amazing.

 

I was moving some Chrysler parts for a friend today and this Fargo radiator & shell was included in the pile.  I'm not too far from you, just north of the border in Canada.  If you have someone who can come up and get it you can have it for free.

Peter

 

 

[ArticiferTom]

Here's pic from 32 f-10 a fellow aaca follower . Have not found a 29 yet but donot image much changed .

[30DodgePanel]

On 7/21/2024 at 5:55 PM, Jack Bennett said:

Hi Dave……this photo has me wondering about the switch location of those used to control the operation of the headlights, starter and the throttle.

Is it possible you have the entire photo showing the names of the items which appear at the lines end?

If you do, I have an Egyptian friend whom I think can provide you with a set of original hieroglyphics showing exactly what you will need to take on your journey into the after-life.
Jack

 

 

Haha, no need, I've not earned any degrees in either rite nor do I intend to become part of the buggaboo tribe.

I'll stick with the covenant I received as a young boy from the true master. 

 

Again, this is from the 1/2 ton Packet so I'm not sure if it is of much use.

A few weeks ago there were two 3/4 ton Instruction Books specific for the Clippers for sale on eBay. I guess they have sold. 
Hopefully you secured one as it may hold more answers that you may be looking for.

 

[30DodgePanel]

11 hours ago, PFindlay said:

Jack, I enjoy your musings and commend you for taking on such a project.  The progress you've made is amazing.

 

I was moving some Chrysler parts for a friend today and this Fargo radiator & shell was included in the pile.  I'm not too far from you, just north of the border in Canada.  If you have someone who can come up and get it you can have it for free.

Peter

 

 

 

Hi Finlay,

This apprears to match what I have on my 3/4 ton Dodge. I'd like to learn more about it.

Can you confirm this to be a Fedders with part #522730 A ? 

 

I've just always been curious if the Fedders # on the Fargo and Dodge were the exact same part #.

 

Thanks
Dave

 

Edit:

Hellofa score for Jack, and I for one can appreciate you offering it to him. Good on you.

Edited August 3 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[PFindlay]

9 hours ago, 30DodgePanel said:

Can you confirm this to be a Fedders with part #522730 A ? 

Yes, it is a Fedders but I see no part number.

 

[Jack Bennett]

On 8/3/2024 at 5:50 AM, ArticiferTom said:

Here's pic from 32 f-10 a fellow aaca follower . Have not found a 29 yet but donot image much changed .

Hi Tom……..”Yay” for me. 
When I get really tired, and working on the truck seems too much like work, I pop the top of a MGD and scrutinize whatever it is that I have already done.

My job in the Army included plans and evaluation, and this entails filling in missing details to a incomplete undertaking and deciding what the mission will look like when the missing part are added.
I have began putting the finishing touches to the bed, and your photo is the exact thing I need to build the tailgate, which uses chains attached to the two steel eyelets (which I was puzzled as to their purpose) on the steel corner braces I just installed on the bed.

Thanks much……I’ll post some photos later to better explain what I am talking about.

Jack