$128,500 4-4-2!!!

[Steve Moskowitz]

I offer this as a source for your entertainment, no editorial comment needed. I just got my Hemmings this morning....ad for a '72 W-30 Covertible. Owner is asking $128,500! What say you all??

[Guest Dave Wyatt]

I would normaly say that is outrageous, but in this day and age someone may actually buy it for that price.

What were the details of that car. New from factory and sealed in a time capsule all these years???

[Steve Moskowitz]

Do not have the ad in front of me but I recall it said 4=speed, matching #'s, cover car.....however, I still am recovering from the shock. The latest issue shows some rather surprising results of other collector cars at auction...despite some concerns over the economy there still are guys spending the $$$ (except when I am selling!) <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[sagebrush]

Not to sound like an expert because I am not but I have been parting/selling vintage cars since 1975 and when the stock market is weak in the joints investors look to vintage cars as well as other things. Rember the 18 month recesion of late 80's-early 90's? Car values jumped. Just a consideration.

[Guest Parm]

If I may,

First, a "listing price" is merely the exercise of one's First Amendment Rights (ie., freedom of speech). Other than that, it has little bearing as to what this car would actually sell for - assuming it really IS for sale, which I seriously doubt at that price.

Sounds like the seller is throwing out a huge price under the "who's the greater fool theory" - the guy who's asks $128,500, or the guy who pays it.

If someone is actually willing to pay that price, bet the farm he'll not be able to sell it for that soon afterward, because at that altitude the air gets real thin pretty quick ? and so does the number of buyers. The principle of Market Value is dependent on what a "typical seller" would be willing to accept and what a "typical buyer" would be willing to pay. This situation hardly seems typical to me. More like a market anomaly. And, one anomaly doesn't establish the prevailing market value for a real nice, number's matching, 4-4-2.

In my humble opinion.

[rocketraider]

After seeing what Originality Plus wants for a NOS 1968 442 grille/headlight surround assembly on ebay, nothing surprises me. Opening bid is over a grand. All I can say is the powerplant business is obviously the wrong business to be in.

I will never be rich. I am too damn honest for my own good.

[Giftman]

RR-

Don't feel to badly..it's guys like you that make the Olds hobby enjoyable for relative "newbies" like myself. It has been 4 years (and 3 Oldsmobiles) since I re-upped with Oldsmobiles (parents sold our 69 442 to buy a camper back in the mid 70's, I have never been right since!) and I must say the people make the difference. Just like you, I always feel better helping a fellow Olds-man out with a needed part rather than tripling my investment on the auction site. Keep up the good work. Now, if you would only be so kind as to publish that secret Email address of yours!

BW

[rocketraider]

I didn't publish my e-mail here because I went thru an ungodly virus attack last year that came off the 442.com member roster- which we had to use our email address as our user ID so anyone could get it, and that virus attack wiped out several guys' computers. So- nothing personal to anyone, just use the private message feature and I'll try to answer questions as I can. But I only check the PM mailbox about once a week.

Agreed. I see more and more people trying to finance a high-roller lifestyle selling NOS parts. I know the stuff is valuable because it's not made anymore, but there's such a thing as reason, and there's such a thing as people who will stop at nothing to have that 1000-point car. When those two types of people collide, higher prices for all of us are the result.

I would personally be embarrassed to admit I paid $1000 for a grille set.

[6219_Rules]

I have to agree with Rocket on this. I knew car collecting was expensive but it has become more and more so as people drive up the prices to make a killing, and those into the show circuit who have made it more than a hobby. I have no problem with either of those things really. I recognise competition is a very strong aspect to our culture. However, as with sports, it has gotten so I am uncomfortable to go to meetings. I belong to several good clubs but I tend to frequent the smaller local ones because we all have the same basic interests, similar cars and want to enjoy the company of like minded people. I was excited to join the Rocky Mountain Cadillac LaSalle Club when I moved to Colorado from Houston but on dealing with some of the members, I found them to be very intense. As a novice I felt intimidated, and to be honest a little self conscious of my car because it smakes a bit, and sounds a little like a tractor. I never wanted to show it anyway really, just to have it seen and to enjoy driving it so I am restoring it to touring shape. I have never thought much of how much money it is worth or how perfect it is other than to know I have a classic car that is fun to drive and is in as original condition I can make it. Clearly money is an issue since I am on SSDI. Maybe this is a conflict with my innate sense of competition knowing I will be on the bench. Well enough of my ramblings for one night! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[65Jayone]

Randall, I agree with your assessment of the car collecting "cul-cha". I might add that until very recently, I had two Oldsmobiles, a 1966 442 which is a pretty respectable car if not quite "show" quality, and a 1965 Starfire (recently sold) that was more of a "driver" quality car. I really disliked the fact that at Olds events, I was seemingly more "worthy" of people's attention when I drove the 442. Truth is, I had a much greater emotional investment in the Starfire, which was a personal project, one that I dreamed of for years (I converted the car to 4-spd in as "factory-appearing" a manner as possible), as opposed to the 442, which I essentially just wrote a check for. I might expect that people would be more attracted to a "shinier" car at a generic car show/cruise, but among Olds-lovers, I would have hoped that appreciation of the marque's more obscure creations would overcome demands for perfection. With some people, that WAS the case, but it was a very FEW people. Pretty discouraging, and when faced with the reality of having to sell one of the cars, well, I sold the clunkier one.

Anyway, at the risk of sounding bitter, I will say that I dislike IMMENSELY the kind of people who withhold their consideration for those who have apparently "dropped a dime or two" on their cars. It is no different that any other form of snobbery. As for the current pricing of trim parts, I am SO glad that I am not in desperate need of anything...I am happy to say that I bought my car back when a mere mortal such as myself could afford it.

By the way, its nice to see someone else who read "The Gods Themselves", one of Asimov's more obscure books to be sure...I'm a HUGE fan (though I'm trying to lose weight). Anyway, I believe that the quote that the book's title is based on was not Asimov's, originally.

[6219_Rules]

All I can say, Scott, is AMEN to those sage words. And you are right about the quote: it comes from Friedrick Von Schiller, an 18th century play wright's works. Von Schiller was notible because he focused on Man's nature as animal and soul...fascinating stuff actually. Made him very unpopular with the establishment at the time but immensely popular with the radical student element. Some things just never change. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Personally I would have stood oogling your Starfire rather than the Cutlass 4-4-2. I know I will appear some kind of heathen to the rank in file by saying this but I think the cars are overrated. So geht es zum leben. Each to his own, I suppose....different strokes for different bores etc, etc..

I have had my car at two shows, one in Estes Park on the 4th of July (massive turnout and a lot of appreciation) and the big Classic Chassic Car Golden Girls event in Houston, TX last year where my beautiful Dutch (the 47 is named the Flying Dutchman for obvious reasons <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> ) sat next to a 1957 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham and was summarily ignored. OK, I will admit it is only a 3 on the 6 point scale, one that covers a large range of cars I might add, but I dare say that is good enough to be appreciated. I never tire of the joy he brings to the older folks whose smiles shine with memories, and the delight younger people show at seeing something of the past rolling past. Lots of 'thumbs up' out here in Boulder!! SO I am not bitter in the least, rather resigned that as in so much else people today look only skin deep and see little of the spirit and value of what they percieve. A failing of the material culture and cult of youth?? Perhaps. Hmmm. At 46 I am not exactly ancient. Anyway for what it is worth I see the 4-4-2 as a marvelous machine, not quite the same as say the 1967 Pontiac GTO or the 1964 Chevrolet Split-window Corvet Stingray, but right up there. Of course this is all my opinion and I recognise it has the same intrinsic value and rarety as my nether region but there it is <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I am sorry you had to pass on the Starfire. I am in a similar position, due to the fiscal slump I am in, where I may have to pass on the Cadillac and keep the Oldsmobile. I would HATE to choose between them but were it to come to it, as it surely may, I will have to choose the one that is more reliable. But that is a decision best left to another day.

Does anyone read Asimov any more? "I Robot" says so much to the modern time.

Thanks Scott! Nice to meet you.

[65Jayone]

Randall, did you add (very) to the quote? Don't remember it being there before...anyway, I am sure that plenty of people still read the Good Doctor's works even over a decade after his passing. Of course, he published A LOT of non-fiction stuff in addition to his Robot, Foundation, Empire, (etc) series.

Nice to meet you as well!

[Centurion]

Scott and Randall, I have enjoyed reading your observations about the state of the car culture. I think that 442's and Eldorado Broughams are both impressive cars, and I would be the last to denigrate either. In the case of the 442 and the Starfire, I suspect that there's much more going on here than merely the condition of the cars.

It seems that there is a definite "herd" mentality within the collector car hobby, and we see it manifested in various ways. At one extreme, we have those who will not consider a car to be even remotely interesting unless it's a tri-five Chevy or a '65-'70 Mustang or Camaro. Even among those who embrace more "exotic" makes such as Oldsmobile or Cadillac, we have those who summarily dismiss cars that have more than two doors or are painted green. And, as we know, there are those who would consider nothing but a "bona fide" muscle car to be worth owning.

Regrettably, in our rush to idolize certain makes, models and body styles because everyone has decided that these are the truly "hot" and desirable cars, many very fine cars are largely ignored. I have grown weary of the weekend cruise nights; regardless of how nice or unique or interesting I might think my cars are, the "car guys" at the meets can't be bothered to even walk over for a look. A couple of weeks ago, for example, I drove my nice original '59 Buick 4-door hardtop into the local cruise-in. I had all the windows lowered for the true pillarless look, and, as I drove in, I heard a Camaro guy joke that he needed my car to haul a 4'x8' sheet of plywood. Another time, I arrived in my nicely-restored 455-powered full-size 2-door hardtop, and a couple of guys joked that my car would make a wonderful donor car for their next street rod project. These comments reveal a great deal about the mentality out there. This has served to re-affirm my belief that getting out on the road and driving the cars is far more fun than sitting at the car shows. The people out on the road respect and appreciate my cars, and are delighted to see them. It's refreshing to be around people who have not been indoctrinated about the "correct" collector cars.

'47 Cadillacs and '65 Starfires are beautiful cars that would certainly attract my attention and admiration. It's a shame that so few people recognize that the Starfire is in most respects a nicer and rarer model than the 442.

[6219_Rules]

Centurion! Salve Amici!!

I would have been over in a heart beat. I LOVE the '59 Buicks. They, like the 60 Cadillac, appear so fluid and graceful as though they are floating above the ground. What a marvelous car!! Do you have pictures of it out on the Photo Post section? I would love to see some of the interior.

My Olds has a 455 with a Turbo 400 transmission. Isn't it nice to have all that grace and elegance, with power to boot?? <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Centurion]

Randall, thank you for your kind comments regarding the '59. Both my cars can be seen at: http://buickshoprag.org/memberscars/brianandlynndlaurance/index.htm

Please scroll to the bottom of the screen to read about and see a few photos of the '59, including interior shots. Click on the photos to enlarge them.

My dad's business partner owned a succession of new Oldsmobile 98's, and his '69 was probably my favorite. Styling was very elegant and tasteful -- I love the GM luxury models of this era. I'm pleased that others also appreciate them.

[6219_Rules]

Brian,

That is a gorgious car! I remember the '59 Buick from my very early life in Columbia, Missouri back in 1962; there was one down the street from us and another a couple of blocks away.

I also remember the Oldsmobiles of that period as well as all of the mid-50's cars. We had a blue '56 Plymouth Savoy 4 door at that time. Anyway I really appreciate your sharing your wonderful cars with us. Thanks!

[rocketraider]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I heard a Camaro guy joke that he needed my car to haul a 4'x8' sheet of plywood. Another time, I arrived in my nicely-restored 455-powered full-size 2-door hardtop, and a couple of guys joked that my car would make a wonderful donor car for their next street rod project.</div></div>

I get the same stuff with the Ninety Eight and Toro, but Brian, you are way too polite to this crowd. Salvos fired deserve retorts, and mainstreamers are the most fun of all to mess with because they can't stand being upstaged <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />.

To the Camaro guy- "Hey, you need the plywood to fix the floors in that rustbucket?! Be glad to haul it for ya, just don't tell anybody I'm hauling Chevy parts..."

To the rodders- "Doubt YOU could build a car to handle a Buick 455" followed by a small burnout demonstration.

Sorry, the highschool smartass is still deep within me <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />. Of course, being 6'3" and 235 lbs with a military buzz and a goatee generally ensures no backtalk. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Centurion]

Glenn, great advice! I need to print out your retorts for future reference!

Thanks for the encouragement.

[Grimm]

To the Camaro guy: "What's the matter, you don't have any more room in your car after putting the box of nails in the back?" or "You must be building one of those little sheds for your car?"

To the guy wanting a donor car: "I can understand, Buick engines are tough to handle for an inexperienced guy like yourself." or "Oh, you need my car to tow yours to the garage?"