1925 Maxwell/Chrysler tire rim question

[Max4Me]

After just getting the car running after vacuum tank and carb work, I now have a slow leak on one of the tires on my car. I decided to put on the spare until I can find a place to fix it (if it can be). The spare did not quite match up to the existing bolt pattern on the car. I took tracings of both wheels and they are both apparently slightly out of round. (see pix below) The original wheel not so much but the spare is 5/8" difference between the the longest and shortest dimension and will not fit over the lugs on the rim mounted on the car. I thought about removing the bolt holding  the split rim together but not sure that's such a wise idea. I appreciate any help anyone can offer.

[DFeeney]

What is the tires size cast into the sidewall of each tire.  Are they the same?  A picture of your rim and hub will help the "Forum Detectives".

[Max4Me]

DFeeney,

 

Thanks for your reply. All 5 tires are made by The Lester Tire Company and are 4.75/5.00-20.  I could not measure across the hub on the car because of the grease cap, but I measured the distance between the lugs and they are all exactly 9 1/2" apart. On the tires, I measured and labeled the distance between the two opposite mounting brackets. As you can see the distance between the brackets on the original tire, two are identical and one is 1/8' off (measured from the apex of each bracket). However, on the spare tire two brackets are 17 1/4"apart but the third is 16 7/8", 3/8" narrower. Therefore, those two brackets will not fit over the corresponding lugs on the hub attached to the car. The only thing I can think at this time is to use a bottle jack and wood shims to try and spread the 16 7/8 side and try to fit it over the lugs. So easily said!

[wayne sheldon]

Looks like you're on the right track. I take it those are "fixed lugs" on the rims? Most big cars and smaller manufacturers used separate lugs that were not attached to the rim to mount the rim onto the wheel. Most model T Fords with factory demountable rim wheels, some Chevrolet, Overland, Star, and others used fixed lug rims for some years and models. I am not familiar with Chrysler/Maxwell so much, although I think Maxwell did use some fixed lug rims about 1920.

 

People tend to freak-out when faced with the idea of straightening early wheel rims. Misconceptions of the "widow maker" rims, and safety concerns-turned-fears tend to run amok leading people to believe that even minor damaged rims cannot be repaired. Actually, if rims are not badly damaged, they aren't that difficult to straighten.

 

A strong heavy base to work on is important. I often use my car-trailer's tongue for that purpose. I also am fortunate to have some tinsmith anvils that belonged to my grandfather which I often use to straighten many things including wheel rims. Tinsmith anvils are not something most people have, almost anything heavy and solid enough to hold the rim steady while wrestling with it can work well. Trailer tongues are fairly common in this hobby.

 

For a whole lot of reasons, measuring, assessing, mounted tires create interference, the rim should be stripped of tires or other wheel or pieces not being repaired at that moment. So, yes, the air should be let out and the locking bolt removed.

 

The first thing to do is determine just where the rim needs to be tweaked. To that end, for rims that aren't too tough, a "perfect" circle drawn on cardboard may be suitable. Tracing a rim is not "perfect" enough. You need a very round circle of appropriate size to trace, or rig up a compass to draw one. A couple well centered circles (inner and outer) is also helpful to determining which areas of the rim are too straight, and which areas are too sharp.

Once found, mark the rim with a beginning and ending points (chalk, pencil, felt marker?). Most minor issues are gradual, so your area to tweak should be a few to several inches long. If the bent/tweaked area is close to the split? Clamp the area closer to the split, and use the longer part for leverage to make your adjustments.

Once marked, firmly clamp the rim onto your solid base just outside the area to be tweaked. Do not crush the rim with a clamp to the base. A small block or two of scrap wood can cushion and protect the rim from additional damage. When well clamped, try to manhandle and push/pull the other side of the marked area in the appropriate direction, split rims should NOT be latched together! One needs to push past the desired point, and then let the rim spring back freely. Softer metal rims it doesn't take much!

You also want the free-floating ends to help guide you to know when things are getting closer to right. Ideally, the two ends should with little to no pressure basically meet evenly, and with somewhere between a very small gap to a very slight pressure pushing the ends together. Most of this is not critical. Close to perfect is close enough!

 

As a general rule, I prefer to bend and work these rims back to straight cold. However, some rims are just too tough to do cold, and some heat needs to be carefully applied. Also, some rims if tweaked or twisted enough (and it doesn't take much!) are better suited to be repaired with carefully placed hot spots to shrink the metal back to where it belongs.

 

Work slowly, and carefully. Don't force things too quickly and make matters worse. Work it a little, then recheck it. then work it a little more. Easier to make a couple small adjustments than to make a big leap and have to bend it back again.

 

A couple years ago, I needed to replace a tire on my Paige as the eighty year old tire no longer wanted to support the car so that I could roll it around when I needed to (it doesn't run). My spare rim turned out to be bent. Not badly looking at it. But enough that I spent more than two hours trying to get the locking pin put in it, and there was no way it was going to line up enough. Once I accepted that I had to straighten the rim, it took about a half hour to custom make a simple sheet metal template to precisely check the curvature of the rim (the rim was slightly twisted and I needed precision!). Once that was accomplished (including the precision template), it took about forty-five minutes to find and carefully mark the bends and twists, clamp the rim to grandpa's tinsmith anvil, fire up the oxy-acetylene torch, re-bend and tweak the rim back to where it belonged, AND clean and repaint the rim!

The next day, it took about ten minutes to mount the tire onto the repaired rim, and put the safety pin in place. About one hour to repair the rim the right way AND mount it versus more than two hours fighting with the bent rim and failing. Think about it.

[Max4Me]

Wayne,

Thank you so much for your very clear explanation as to how to fix the rim. Unfortunately the lug bolts on the hub attached to the car are fixed. The brackets on the wheel rim are also fixed. My suspicion is that the way the spare was mounted on the carrier it applied enough pressure that over the years to pull it slightly out-of-round. There is just 3/8" difference on one set of lug brackets than the other two. I measured the from the apex of one bracket on the actual rim to the opposing bracket so I know where the rim is tweaked. It sounds like I'm going to have to develop some new skills to tackle this job. I'm brave enough (crazy enough) to try. I'm also smart enough to know when I'm over my head. Unfortunately, in Southern Calif. I'm not sure there's many people capable of doing  this either. The ones I knew have passed on. Thank you, again!

[DFeeney]

I would post on the Maxwell page looking for a good used rim.  I will try to find my rim book that tells the other makes this rim fits.   They are not as hard to find as you might think, but you have to "Shake the Bushes"   Good  Luck.

[Max4Me]

15 hours ago, DFeeney said:

I would post on the Maxwell page looking for a good used rim.  I will try to find my rim book that tells the other makes this rim fits.   They are not as hard to find as you might think, but you have to "Shake the Bushes"   Good  Luck.

DFeeney,

 

I may have an out. By sheer chance I found a place in the next town that works on antique cars. Who knew?!? It was closed when I stopped by yesterday so will give it a shot today or tomorrow. It won't hurt! As a relative newbie, this is what I love about this site-someone  I don't know, from halfway across the country, is willing to do what they can to help. I am interested in what you find out if you find your book. For the record, as you can see from my topic, this car is a Maxwell/Chrysler (no FEDCO plate, just a serial# tag on the firewall that says "Maxwell/Chrysler"). It was built in Canada after Chrysler acquired Maxwell Motors and rebranded it in America. But the Canadian cars were not rebranded until 1926. So, my guess is rims from a Chrysler Four would fit. I will follow up with your suggestion if needed. Thanks again!

[Jack Bennett]

My experience with these old machines is that it is easy to over complicate things.

These cars was made during a time when was usual to get a tool kit with the car, and it was not unusual for the owner to use them.

They were used during a era when the roads were shared with wagons and tractors but not necessarily paved or even graded.

In your tool kit, or available from most antique car owners you have a device called a “rim expander”…….and that’s exactly what it does.

A few days ago I put new tires on the Fargo Express panel I recently bought. I have no doubt that it had set for over 50 years on either its three rims with shredded tires, and it single rim with no tire.

The rims showed signs that the truck had been dragged many times with just the rims supporting it’s weight, and it was no surprise that the rims were dented and bent in several places.

When the tires was mounted, the rims refused to go back on the wheel since they more resembled a oval than a circle.

With the tire installed and aired up to 35 pounds, I used the rim expander to press out the low spots and bring in the high spots.

I can’t guarantee this will work for you but I leave you with the thought that……when working with these old cars, if things seem to be going ok…..you’re doing something wrong.

Jack

[nat]

     The rim is clamped to the wheel on a tapered seat.  If the wheel is round, the rim should become round when tightened evenly.  

     Check it when mounted and observe that the tire bead is a uniform distance from the rim.

[timecapsule]

This is a fascinating post.  Please keep us updated.  Especially with detailed pictures as you go along to show how you over came the problem.

What condition are the spoke tenons in, as they come through the inner rim?  If they are worn, I have come up with a fool proof method of repair, assuming the rest of the spokes are in good shape and not decayed internally. 

[Max4Me]

On 11/9/2023 at 5:17 PM, nat said:

If the wheel is round, the rim should become round when tightened evenly.  

That is the problem The wheel is round but the rim on which the tire mounts is not. I can get a few lugs on the wheel lined up to the rim but then the out of round lugs will not fit over the lugs. DFeeny in the above post gave an excellent reply on a possible way to fix this. 

[Max4Me]

On 11/10/2023 at 10:11 AM, timecapsule said:

What condition are the spoke tenons in

The spokes look really good, nice and round, no wear or decay. In fact I almost wonder if they've been replaced sometime in the past.  I'm interested in your repair method for future reference, though I'm a little leery of repairing them. I believe I have enough woodworking skills and equipment to make my own if needed.

[nat]

On 11/6/2023 at 7:38 PM, Max4Me said:

I measured the distance between the lugs and they are all exactly 9 1/2" apart.

 

 

On 11/6/2023 at 7:38 PM, Max4Me said:

the spare tire two brackets are 17 1/4"apart but the third is 16 7/8", 3/8" narrower.

     Six  holes 9 1/2" apart would have a 19" diameter.  

     It sounds like the rim or a measurement are off by an inch. 

[Jack Bennett]