8 wire turn signal assembly, wiring diagram?

[timecapsule]

I'm fed up with the 7 wire assembly that I have on my car now.  It's a terrible design and the wire going to the pilot light gets so much wear and tear that it has snapped off twice in about a year and a half.  So now I have just finished designing a method that will reduce that wire movement within the assembly.  

 

But I want to be prepared for it too fail eventually.  So at a swap meet this summer I bought a new turn signal assembly.  It's made by Dominion Auto of Toronto, P/N 70-8033.  Probably 60's vintage but by the condition of the ends of the wires, that have about a 1/16" of bare wire showing it tells me that it has never been installed on a car.  I did as much research on that unit and it seems like it could also be a 6 volt unit, So I checked the pilot light bulb and its a # 53.  So that tells me it's a 12 volt unit

 

I've done considerable searching on the internet for the wiring diagram but I can't find anything.   Not only that, but the wire designation is different from the 7 wire that I have now.  On that one (7 wire), the blue wire is for the pilot light.  On the Dominion one (8 wire), the black wire is for the pilot light.  The other wiring designation that is different is that on the 7 wire unit the brown is for rear right.  I have done a bench test on the 8 wire unit, and the only wire that I can get the pilot light, and test bulb, and flasher to flash is the brown wire when the lever is set for the left side of the car.  So the  brown is for left on the 8 wire unit.  But that is the only wire that responds when testing it with a bulb. ???  The picture below shows the colours.  red. black, blue, orange, white, green, yellow, and black.  Except for the orange, all the wires are 18 ga.  The orange is 16, or maybe 14 ga.  So I ran that one to the L on the flasher.  I ran the X terminal on the flasher to the battery with a 20 amp fuse in line.  I ran the black wire to the P on the flasher.  

 

As I've mentioned in previous posts. I'm as stupid as a stick when it comes to auto electrics.  For some reason beyond my "expertise", I'm wondering if all the wires must be connected to bulbs before it completely wakes up the turn signal unit?  I'm thinking I have everything configured properly since I get the brown to flash appropriately. I've grounded the turn signal unit to the ground post of the battery and I've also grounded the test light bulb to the negative post of the battery.  

 

Yes I could just start disconnecting the wires on the unit that is installed on the car now, and hopefully and eventually sort it out by trial and error.  But the days are short now and I want to get the wiring transferred over in a few hours since my shop isn't where I live and I prefer not walking home in the dark, because I got stumped over confusing wiring.

[Bloo]

I don't know why 8 wires. There are 2 types of switch, 4 wire and 7 wire. They don't always have exactly 4 or 7 wires. Despite making no sense, that terminology has become ubiquitous. Given this one has 8 wires, I am guessing it is a 7 wire switch. It probably isn't a 4 wire....

 

6v vs 12v does not matter at all beyond changing the pilot light bulb or bulbs on units that have lights inside.

 

Ignore colors completely. They don't mean a thing. In the IT industry they say the nice thing about standards is there are so many to chose from...   If you can find instructions for this particular make and model of switch, then I guess colors mean something. Otherwise, you are on your own on that front.

 

3 hours ago, timecapsule said:

Except for the orange, all the wires are 18 ga.  The orange is 16, or maybe 14 ga.  So I ran that one to the L on the flasher.  I ran the X terminal on the flasher to the battery with a 20 amp fuse in line.  I ran the black wire to the P on the flasher. 

3 hours ago, timecapsule said:

On the Dominion one (8 wire), the black wire is for the pilot light.

That all sounds correct.

 

A traditional thermal flasher won't flash without a load, or may flash at the wrong speed with the wrong number of bulbs connected. You should be able to make them all turn on though.

 

You should have 2 wires for right and 2 wires for left. This is the main difference between 4 wire and 7 wire. 7 wire is capable of sharing the brake lights with the signal lights, and so you have separate wires for front and rear.

 

There is a wire in the bundle somewhere that i supposed to come from the brake light switch. If you make that one hot with the signal switch "off", both rear light wires should become hot. When you turn the signal switch on, one of them should go out, the side you turned on. This is how the share feature works. If everything was hooked up, it would have disconnected the rear bulb on one side from the brake lights, and connected it to power from the flasher.

 

The front signals are completely separate switching, and simple. You turn a side on, the switch connects that side's front bulb to the flasher.

 

My guess is you will probably have to take it apart to figure it out.

 

Another guess I have is that the extra (8th) wire is a ground. You should be able to see for sure if you have it open. Most 7-wire switches ground through the mounting, and one of the most common problems is the pilot not working because it does not have a good ground.

 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Bloo (see edit history)

[timecapsule]

8 minutes ago, Bloo said:

I don't know why 8 wires. There are 2 types of switch, 4 wire and 7 wire. They don't always have exactly 4 or 7 wires. Despite making no sense, that terminology has become ubiquitous. Given this one has 8 wires, I am guessing it is a 7 wire switch. It probably isn't a 4 wire....

 

6v vs 12v does not matter at all beyond changing the pilot light bulb or bulbs on units that have lights inside.

 

Ignore colors completely. They don't mean a thing. In the IT industry they say the nice thing about standards is there are so many to chose from...   If you can find instructions for this particular make and model of switch, then I guess colors mean something. Otherwise, you are on your own on that front.

 

That all sounds correct.

 

A traditional thermal flasher won't flash without a load, or may flash at the wrong speed with the wrong number of bulbs connected. You should be able to make them all turn on though.

 

You should have 2 wires for right and 2 wires for left. This is the main difference between 4 wire and 7 wire. 7 wire is capable of sharing the brake lights with the signal lights, and so you have separate wires for front and rear.

 

There is a wire in the bundle somewhere that i supposed to come from the brake light switch. If you make that one hot with the signal switch "off", both rear light wires should become hot. When you turn the signal switch on, one of them should go out, on the side you turned on. This is how the share feature works. If everything was hooked up, it would have disconnected that rear bulb from one side, and connected it to power from the flasher.

 

The front signals are completely separate switching, and simple. You turn a side on, the switch connects that side's front bulb to the flasher.

 

My guess is you will probably have to take it apart to figure it out.

 

Another guess I have is that the extra (8th) wire is a ground. You should be able to see for sure if you have it open. Most 7-wire switches ground through the mounting, and one of the most common problems is the pilot not working because it does not have a good ground.

 

 

 

I was wondering what I might find if I try to take it all apart.  Obviously I have taken the top off to expose the bulb socket and the black wire going to it.  There are two screws in that portion so I guess I'll take them out and dig deeper and see what I discover.  I'm hoping this unit is pre circuit board and the wiring will be self explanatory once I get in there.

[Bloo]

Post pics if its not obvious. I'll try to figure it out.

 

[joe_padavano]

This switch is from a different manufacturer (Signal Stat) and obviously uses different colors, but it is an eight wire switch. The eighth wire is a feed from the park light circuit on the headlight switch. Apparently this is for cars that only use single-filament bulbs at the front and the park light feed to the front is treated like the brake light feed to the rear - the turn signal switch overrides the front park light (or rear brake light) on the side selected for the turn signal and flashes that filament instead.

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by joe_padavano (see edit history)

[timecapsule]

16 minutes ago, joe_padavano said:

This switch is from a different manufacturer (Signal Stat) and obviously uses different colors, but it is an eight wire switch. The eighth wire is a feed from the park light circuit on the headlight switch. Apparently this is for cars that only use single-filament bulbs at the front and the park light feed to the front is treated like the brake light feed to the rear - the turn signal switch overrides the front park light (or rear brake light) on the side selected for the turn signal and flashes that filament instead.

 

I saw that diagram during my search and it confused me because one wire is going to the headlight switch and then on to ampmeter.  What's that all about??  Maybe that's the 8th wire, which would probably be the white wire.  

[timecapsule]

Does anyone have an idea why the orange wire is a heavier gage?  The 7 wire assembly in the car now uses all 18 ga. wires.

[Bloo]

More current if it is the flasher wire, but only 2 bulbs vs 1. You usually don't see that. The brake switch wiere also feeds 2 bulbs. Maybe 4 bulbs at at time for the orange wire if there is a 4-way flasher function?

 

[timecapsule]

12 minutes ago, Bloo said:

More current if it is the flasher wire, but only 2 bulbs vs 1. You usually don't see that. The brake switch wiere also feeds 2 bulbs. Maybe 4 bulbs at at time for the orange wire if there is a 4-way flasher function?

 

Yes there is a 4 way flasher function.  However there is also a 4 way flasher function in the existing 7 wire one on the car now with all tiny wires.

[Bloo]

Yeah, i don't recall ever seeing one big wire. It can't hurt, but probably isn't necessary.

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Bloo (see edit history)

[timecapsule]

I'll dissect it tomorrow and take some pictures

[joe_padavano]

10 hours ago, timecapsule said:

I saw that diagram during my search and it confused me because one wire is going to the headlight switch and then on to ampmeter.  What's that all about??  Maybe that's the 8th wire, which would probably be the white wire.  

As I said in my first post, the wire to the headlight switch is the feed for the parking lights. If your car only has single filament bulbs in the front parking lights, you need to run the front park light circuit through this switch. If you have dual filament bulbs then you can ignore that connection. The ammeter connection is just the power source. If you don't have an ammeter, connect that wire to a circuit that is hot with ignition on.

[timecapsule]

2 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

As I said in my first post, the wire to the headlight switch is the feed for the parking lights. If your car only has single filament bulbs in the front parking lights, you need to run the front park light circuit through this switch. If you have dual filament bulbs then you can ignore that connection. The ammeter connection is just the power source. If you don't have an ammeter, connect that wire to a circuit that is hot with ignition on.

So are you saying without that wire connected to the ammeter in the car, (battery on the bench) that the bench test won't function properly? 

[joe_padavano]

55 minutes ago, timecapsule said:

So are you saying without that wire connected to the ammeter in the car, (battery on the bench) that the bench test won't function properly? 

How did you get that from what I wrote?

 

The ammeter connection in the drawing is simply the power source for the turn signal system. If the car has an ammeter you want to run all loads through it to get an accurate reading on the ammeter. This has nothing to do with the turn signal switch, it's just how ammeters are used. If your car doesn't have an ammeter, simply connect that wire to a switched power source. There's nothing magic about the ammeter.

[californiamilleghia]

16 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

 

Just to be sure , the contact on the Amp gauge is just to get "+ power"  and has nothing to do with the Amp gauge , just in case  your car does not have an Amp Gauge .

[timecapsule]

16 minutes ago, californiamilleghia said:

Just to be sure , the contact on the Amp gauge is just to get "+ power"  and has nothing to do with the Amp gauge , just in case  your car does not have an Amp Gauge .

I do have an ammeter.  all wiring goes to a fuse panel and then on to the ammeter.  I'll be posting pictures of the inside components and a diagram in a few minutes.

[timecapsule]

So here is what's going on inside the turn signal assembly.  From the wiring, I can see which wires go where as far as each turn signal light.  I'm assuming that one of the wires ( orange, white, or yellow ) goes to the "L" on the flasher. Which one?  I'm also assuming that one of those 3 wires will go to the brake light switch. Which one?  How about the third wire?

I sent along a diagram to help show which wire goes where.  

[37_Roadmaster_C]

One more helpful piece of information would be a picture of the inside switch blocks with the lever in all three positions and just for fun, also the 4 way position. We can figure it out with what you posted, but this last bit will cut the time by a factor of 10 😀.

[timecapsule]

Hopefully these pictures and my explanation will speed things up.  This pictures with the top off really doesn't show much, other than the black wire going to the pilot light.  More pics to come.

[37_Roadmaster_C]

Here it goes...

 

Yellow - flasher main connection  Normally "L"

White - Park light feed from headlight switch

Orange - Brake light feed from brake switch

 

Green - Front left or right (pairs with Blue)

Blue - Rear left or right (pairs with Green)

 

Red - Front left or right (pairs with Brown)

Brown - Rear left or right (pairs with red)

 

Black - to flasher pilot connection  Normally "P"

 

Also, connect the "B or X" flasher terminal to power and make sure to ground the switch assembly

 

I hope this helps

 

Edit to correct my flasher terminal letters

Edited October 29, 2023 by 37_Roadmaster_C (see edit history)

[timecapsule]

I think this will be the most helpful picture.  The activator arm is removed.  Under it is this sliding bar that activates the 4 way flasher.  When it moves forward it pushes both of those plastic half round pieces at once.  If one was to apply the left turn signal, that 4 way activator along with the turn signal arm is pulled down, which inturn slides only the half round plastic slide up which  makes contact with blue, green, and yellow.  If the turn signal lever is pushed in the opposite direction then the red brown and yellow all make contact.

When 4 way flasher is activated by sliding the arm straight in, then blue, green, red, brown all make contact with yellow.

[Bloo]

This looks like the extra wire is for the same function as the extra wire in the switch @joe_padavano posted. It "shares" filaments in parking lights. That can be ignored if you don't plan on implementing the feature. Your old switch would not have had it.

 

There are 2 ways it could connect. No difference between the two as far as I can tell. In all cases, Black goes to the flasher "P" terminal.

 

Yellow - Power from flasher

Orange - Power from brake light switch

Brown - Side "A" rear

Red - Side "A" front

Blue - Side "B" rear

Green - Side "B" front

White - Ignore (this would be connected to parking light circuit power if sharing parking lights)

 

OR.... since both the front and rear implement a "share" function, it could be like this:

 

Yellow - Power from flasher

White - Power from brake light switch

Red - Side "A" rear

Brown - Side "A" front

Green- Side "B" rear

Blue - Side "B" front

Orange - Ignore (this would be connected to parking light circuit power if sharing parking lights)

 

I think they meant the first option because I doubt they put in an extra large wire (orange) for a feature they expected almost no one to use.

 

I used "Side A" and "Side B" because I am not sure which is right and which is left. That could be determined by turning the switch on.

 

Edit: @37_Roadmaster_C beat me to it. Yeah, like that.

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Bloo (see edit history)

[timecapsule]

3 minutes ago, 37_Roadmaster_C said:

Here it goes...

 

Yellow - flasher main connection  Normally "B"

White - Park light feed from headlight switch

Orange - Brake light feed from brake switch

 

Green - Front left or right (pairs with Blue)

Blue - Rear left or right (pairs with Green)

 

Red - Front left or right (pairs with Brown)

Brown - Rear left or right (pairs with red)

 

Black - to flasher pilot connection  Normally "P"

 

Also, connect the "B" flasher terminal to power and make sure to ground the switch assembly

 

I hope this helps

Thanks.  I'm assuming "B" means battery.  My flasher has an "X"  for that one.  "P" for pilot light and "L" for load

[timecapsule]

Thanks guys for all your help.  I'm sure I can figure it out from your explanations now.  

[Bloo]

Yes, "L" (load) on the flasher goes to the signal switch (yellow).

 

Make sure the housing is grounded or your pilot won't work.

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Bloo (see edit history)

[37_Roadmaster_C]

@Bloo caught my mistake in flasher lettering. I edited my post to correct.  Not enough coffee yet 😂.

[timecapsule]

Well it wasn't exactly a slam dunk today with the "bench test drive" for my turn signal unit. 

But at least, thanks to you guys, I know what's going on and what each wire does.  

I struggled even after I got it all wired up on the bench with 4 bulbs wired in.  After some time and a multi-meter in hand, I figured out that I wasn't getting continuity, and I tracked it down to the slider piece and the plastic board with all the contacts are.  So I cleaned off all the old grease and then cleaned it further with electrical contact cleaner and I've got that working much better.  However I still think I have one lazy contact.  I think I'll take it apart again and stretch out the tiny springs that are putting pressure on the slider bar to make contact on those (12) round contacts on the black plastic board.  

 

The other issue I think I am having is a faulty flasher.  

If I have a fused wire from a battery going to the X terminal, then I should have 12 volts going from the L terminal, into the turn signal assembly, right?

I have everything lighting up as it should.  Two lights come on when I activate the brake light switch that I installed.

When I move the turn signal lever to one side two lights light up.

When I move the turn signal lever to the opposite side, the other two lights light up

When I push in the 4 way flasher, all 4 light light up

However nothing flashes. Yes I have grounded the turn signal assembly.

Btw, I used the white wire for the brake light because nothing happened when I hooked up the orange wire to the brake light switch.  I think that was a continuity issue. 

 

But to throw a wrench into the whole thing, if I disconnect the flasher from the turn signal assembly, and then run a fused wire from the battery to the X terminal on the flasher and then a bulb and socket and wire to the L terminal and then ground the socket to the negative post, the bulb will flash.  ????  go figure.

 

I'm using an electromechanical flasher X, L, P terminals.  I also have an electronic flasher  X, L, - ( ground) terminals.  Will that work, assuming I forget about pilot light?  Or should I go buy another electromechanical flasher?  Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

[Bloo]

1 hour ago, timecapsule said:

If I have a fused wire from a battery going to the X terminal, then I should have 12 volts going from the L terminal, into the turn signal assembly, right?

Yes, assuming it is a traditional thermal flasher. If it is something else, I have no idea. It probably won't flash until there is a load.

1 hour ago, timecapsule said:

When I move the turn signal lever to one side two lights light up.

When I move the turn signal lever to the opposite side, the other two lights light up

When I push in the 4 way flasher, all 4 light light up

It's working.

1 hour ago, timecapsule said:

However nothing flashes. Yes I have grounded the turn signal assembly.

The only reason it needs grounding is for the pilot to work.

1 hour ago, timecapsule said:

Btw, I used the white wire for the brake light because nothing happened when I hooked up the orange wire to the brake light switch.  I think that was a continuity issue. 

That should be fine, as you can see from the contacts, they do the same thing.

1 hour ago, timecapsule said:

But to throw a wrench into the whole thing, if I disconnect the flasher from the turn signal assembly, and then run a fused wire from the battery to the X terminal on the flasher and then a bulb and socket and wire to the L terminal and then ground the socket to the negative post, the bulb will flash.  ????  go figure.

It might depend on what bulbs you are using and what the flasher is? On a traditional flasher, no ground is needed, and the current drawn by the bulbs causes the flashing. Back in the day, they had to be for the correct number of bulbs. Two was typical, to run a 4 bulb system one side at a time. When one bulb would burn out, the flasher might flash at the wrong speed or not flash at all. The upside was it let you know something was amiss. 6 bulb system? Different flasher. Trailer? Different flasher. Later on they made "heavy duty" flashers that were far less sensitive to bulb count and would usually work no matter what. That's probably what you already have, and definitely what you are going to need because your 4-way setup doubles the bulb count when you turn it on. Early 4-way systems used different switching and a separate flasher because otherwise it probably wouldn't flash at the right speed, if at all.

 

The short answer here is that for a useful test it needs to be two signal, brake, or backup light bulbs. Some 1156 and/or the big filaments of 1157, 1034 etc. should work assuming this is a 12 volt system. All bulb sockets must be grounded. Don't use any dim tail light filaments or small parking light bulbs, otherwise its possible you will get random results. Four bulbs should also work (like 4-ways). This should work whether the switch is in the circuit or not.

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Bloo (see edit history)

[timecapsule]

I never thought to check the bulbs,  They are just a bunch of marker light style lights I had kicking around.  I'll open them up and have a look at the bulbs tomorrow. 

Here is the flasher that I'm using.  https://www.napacanada.com/en/p/FLSHD13

Not much info on it though.

The two  pictures below are of the electronic flasher I happen to have, that I was thinking about trying.

[Bloo]

Those are both electronic, and I am not sure how they are supposed to react. That application list for the NAPA one is odd. Mostly imported cars, and then a few specific Jeep and Desoto models? Huh? That's just plain weird. Also a bunch of Alfa Romeos are included. Offhand I don't think those interchanged with the American flashers, but I am not sure.

 

 

[timecapsule]

Thanks Bloo,  When I bought that flasher that I'm using some time ago ( the Napa one in the link), I got that over the counter and I asked for an old school flasher with the X,L, and P terminals.  Granted the guy at the counter was still wearing diapers so I'm guessing he just grabbed the first one he saw.   I'll go to Amazon and select an old school flasher suited for my application.  In the mean time. I'll try to fine tune my bench set up.  With the correct bulbs if the ones I'm using are not the right ones.

Edited October 31, 2023 by timecapsule (see edit history)

[Bloo]

550 *might* be the number of the common American 3 pin 12 volt one. If yours doesn't work normally with two and or 4 bulbs hooked up, maybe try one of these:

 

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/NF_550

 

It looks like it is good for 1-4 bulbs, so should work with that switch of yours in a 4-bulb system, 2 when signalling, 4 when using 4-ways. There's a bunch of Alfa's in the application list, but a bunch of American cars too, so I was probably wrong about that detail.

 

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Bloo]

6 minutes ago, timecapsule said:

Thanks Bloo,  When I bought that flasher that I'm using some time ago ( the Napa one in the link), I got that over the counter and I asked for an old school flasher with the X,L, and P terminals.

He might have been right. It might be fine. You'll know when you bench test it. I am not against electronic flashers, just have no experience with those particular ones.

 

[joe_padavano]

Coming back in late, as it appears that you are on the right path. The mechanical flashers are just a self-resetting circuit breaker. If the resistance in the system (which includes the wire length in addition to the bulbs) isn't sufficient to generate enough heat in the bimetallic strip in the flasher, they won't flash. I was going to suggest that an electronic flasher that uses a timing circuit independent of current draw rather than a bimetallic strip might be a better choice.

[timecapsule]

2 minutes ago, joe_padavano said:

Coming back in late, as it appears that you are on the right path. The mechanical flashers are just a self-resetting circuit breaker. If the resistance in the system (which includes the wire length in addition to the bulbs) isn't sufficient to generate enough heat in the bimetallic strip in the flasher, they won't flash. I was going to suggest that an electronic flasher that uses a timing circuit independent of current draw rather than a bimetallic strip might be a better choice.

hummm!  so from what you just said could the reason I'm not getting a flash be that the wire length on each of the 4 lights on my bench test set up, is about 8" long?  

[timecapsule]

Perhaps I spoke too soon Joe.  After giving it a bit of thought, the flasher you're talking about is the old school bimetallic strip kind, like the 550 Bloo mentioned.  The one I've been using ( link above) is a electromechanical type.  Whatever that means.  But it probably doesn't have that bi metal strip that is heat sensitive. So perhaps the length of wire might not make any difference. 

Just a guess, since I'm way out of my league now.

Edited October 31, 2023 by timecapsule (see edit history)

[Bloo]

Electromechanicai *IS* the old type. Napa's page is wrong. It says electromechanical, but the flasher clearly says "electronic" on the housing in great big letters. Electronic is the new type. So much WTF in that NAPA page. Anyhow, there is nothing wrong with the idea of an electronic flasher. The proof is in whether it works when you hook 2 and then 4 bulbs to it. It will either work or it won't.

 

 

[joe_padavano]

10 hours ago, timecapsule said:

hummm!  so from what you just said could the reason I'm not getting a flash be that the wire length on each of the 4 lights on my bench test set up, is about 8" long?  

Exactly what I was trying to say, and as Bloo points out, your "electromechanical" flasher is the bimetallic strip style that requires a specific current draw to heat up the strip.

[timecapsule]

Just to update,,,  I finally got it.  I credit all you guys for helping me along with this.   So it was a combinations of everyone's suggestions that paid off.   However one big factor was the flasher.  I went and got one of those 550 flashers that Bloo recommended.  Which was the one I remember from the good old days.  Sure enough once I plugged it in everything worked fine.  

So thanks everyone for all your help with this.

Yes I've wrapped masking tape around each wire identifying where it goes, incase I happen to forget before I do the switch and wire it into the car.

Cheers