LeBaron Isotta Fraschini research

[tomkonrad]

Hello everyone,

 

I am searching for original photos and information on the 1928 Isotta Fraschini Tipo-8A SS Boattail Convertible Coupe by LeBaron, chassis #1353.

 

The car was purchased originally by Harry Williams & Marguerite Clark. It is now part of Peter Boyle's collection and has been restored by D&D Restorations.

 

(Please note, there is a "sister car", chassis #1474. It has different front fenders, and now, after being altered at some point in its life,has a new, lower roof & windshield design. Any original photos on this car are also welcome because I am researching it as well.)

 

After searching through archives, publications, and all over the internet, I am yet to find the type of photos I seek most. Above all I would like to find original photos from the LeBaron show stand at the 1928 New York Auto Salon held at the Commodore Hotel. This has proven very difficult to find, and I'm hoping such photos are out there somewhere along with others.

 

Please see the photos I have for reference, and don't hesitate to contact me with any questions or material whatsoever via email too. (konrad.tom@outlook.com)

 

Thank you, and I hope to learn more about this magnificent car and hopefully see photos of it in period! (Learning of the original color scheme would be an added bonus as well!)

 

Tom Konrad 

 

[Walt G]

In issue #7 of Crankshaft magazine that is now in production I did an story on the sales catalogs/portfolios that Le Baron issued. The catalogs were both hard and soft cover. My story is mostly on the illustration work of the artists - the renderings. I don't recall what was exactly shown in all the LeBaron catalogs ( a total of three that I know of issued between 1928 and 1931) . Isotta Fraschini also had a main dealership in NY City and issued their own sales catalog printed here in the USA. I have that as well. I do not have the time to look at all of this currently but perhaps can add to this after Hershey is over. To much going on currently. ( I can hear some of my friends thinking - so what else is new Gosden ?)

[tomkonrad]

Hello Walt,

 

I am glad to hear there may be something in the Crankshaft Magazine coming up. The timing is great since it's about to come out and as I was just going through the CCCA publication archives looking for such material. I went through plenty of your "Coachwork Lines" articles, too. You can imagine my surprise to see you responded to my posting first! Unfortunately, no luck in the CCCA publications or in the other content just yet.

 

I am very intrigued by your upcoming article. I've heard of, and seen the covers of the LeBaron catalogue covers here and there, but never found any material from inside them, so I look forward to it very much!

 

As for other catalogues and adverts, I'm lucky enough to have acquired an original 1928 advert of this very car (photo attached). It is my absolute favorite pre-war car of them all!

 

Thank you for the advice, and if you have the time at any point in the future, anything else you may be able to find on this car is tremendously appreciated!

 

Tom

 

[a griffin]

Not that this info will help you in the least, but I was able to spend time with the car and owner at Keels and Wheels 2022. A wonderful car. 

I mentioned this car to a friend that went to the show separately and he gave me a little bit of the back story as to it's time in Louisiana. One of those stories that don't get shared with but a few.

[tomkonrad]

A.Griffin,

 

I appreciate this all the same, and can relate. I was lucky to see it at the Cobble Beach Concours d'Elegance in Canada. It left the most incredible impression on me and I've been determined to learn everything I can about it ever since! The original photos being the pièce de résistance! The caretakers who brought the car to the show were so kind and showed me all around it. Something not everyone does, and it's so nice when you come across generous people like them! Most regrettably, I cannot remember their names, but it was the car's mechanic and his wife.

 

Perhaps the story you are referring to is the somewhat "famous" one about Harry Williams' speeding ticket? In short, he was fined for speeding through town, only to pay double the fine and insist the authorities don't stop him again when he returns on his way back! 

 

I love these kinds of stories. They add to the history of these cars, their owners, and the period!

 

Thank you,

 

Tom

[tomkonrad]

2 hours ago, Walt G said:

In issue #7 of Crankshaft magazine that is now in production I did an story on the sales catalogs/portfolios that Le Baron issued. The catalogs were both hard and soft cover. My story is mostly on the illustration work of the artists - the renderings. I don't recall what was exactly shown in all the LeBaron catalogs ( a total of three that I know of issued between 1928 and 1931) . Isotta Fraschini also had a main dealership in NY City and issued their own sales catalog printed here in the USA. I have that as well. I do not have the time to look at all of this currently but perhaps can add to this after Hershey is over. To much going on currently. ( I can hear some of my friends thinking - so what else is new Gosden ?)

 

53 minutes ago, a griffin said:

Not that this info will help you in the least, but I was able to spend time with the car and owner at Keels and Wheels 2022. A wonderful car. 

I mentioned this car to a friend that went to the show separately and he gave me a little bit of the back story as to it's time in Louisiana. One of those stories that don't get shared with but a few.

Apologies, I'm new to this forum and forgot to quote your posts in my replies. I hope this helps and I'll be sure to do so going forward.

 

Tom

[a griffin]

1 hour ago, tomkonrad said:

A.Griffin,

 

I appreciate this all the same, and can relate. I was lucky to see it at the Cobble Beach Concours d'Elegance in Canada. It left the most incredible impression on me and I've been determined to learn everything I can about it ever since! The original photos being the pièce de résistance! The caretakers who brought the car to the show were so kind and showed me all around it. Something not everyone does, and it's so nice when you come across generous people like them! Most regrettably, I cannot remember their names, but it was the car's mechanic and his wife.

 

Perhaps the story you are referring to is the somewhat "famous" one about Harry Williams' speeding ticket? In short, he was fined for speeding through town, only to pay double the fine and insist the authorities don't stop him again when he returns on his way back! 

 

I love these kinds of stories. They add to the history of these cars, their owners, and the period!

 

Thank you,

 

Tom

No, that story is quite interesting and funny, though.

 

The story that was shared with me is a bit more.....seedy? salacious? sinister? Not one I would openly share only because I won't speak about people, in this case a previous owner (long deceased), that I don't know. The person that shared the info with me has been active in the hobby over the last 60 years and quickly identifies many cars from the region long before I can verify previous owners. He's quite the walking historian of cars that spent time in and around the south.

Edited September 22, 2023 by a griffin (see edit history)

[tomkonrad]

While research on IF #1353 goes on, I wanted to touch on the "sister car", chassis #1474 from 1928/29

 

A very similar LeBaron design on an 8A S chassis (as opposed to 8A SS on #1353), it had the most notable difference in style in regard to the front fenders being less rounded following the profile of the wheels and instead a "flattened" appearance akin to a Brewster Phantom I York Roadster.

 

The car survives today, although, it has been restored and is no longer in its original color scheme or complete shape. At some point in its life, the windshield was altered, keeping the same angle, however, being considerably lowered and the vertical pillar/trim removed and sporting a different roof without any landau bars as originally. The unaltered 1928 #1353 example being a perfect example to base an eventual restoration on and ensure the design of the roof and windshield are re-created accurately.

 

As for the car's history, it is unclear to me at this point whether it was the second built in LeBaron's Boattail Convertible Coupe style, or perhaps a third as is possible and suggested by Hugo Pfau in his writing on the marque and the positive reception of the 1928 design.

 

In regard to ownership from new, I believe the car to have been originally purchased by George Piperno, who owned several IF's and then became the possession of Wallis C. Bird before being auctioned and exchanging hands on several occasions to this day. Interestingly, assuming George Piperno was the original owner, he is know to have had three bodies on a single IF chassis (presumably this one, #1474) after the original was rolled and then followed an interim Open-Surrey body while a new "proper" body was constructed by LeBaron so the car could still be used. I've attached a photo of the Open-Surrey. If anyone knows about this example and how it may relate to #1474 and the ownership history, I am most intrigued.

 

Lastly, on the topic of color, I am fortunate to have an excellent photo of the cars side profile in period, as well as some photos from the Wallis C. Bird estate sale, plus some from here and there. In all the black and white photos before the colored ones show an altered/restored car, it appears to be black, however it has been said it was in fact a dark blue contrasted by the bare metal bonnet as can be seen in the photos. Learning of the interior color scheme and upholstery material, plus details such as the woodwork and even roof color would be a great discovery! 

 

With some simple online photo colorization, please see the photo of the car in its likely "original" color scheme as well as the old photos and some newer ones for reference.

 

Tom

Edited October 26, 2023 by tomkonrad
Model year correction (see edit history)

[alsancle]

I believe I provided most of the Bird auction photos to the CCCA magazine when they published that article.   My uncle Ted Billings and my dad along with Tony Pascucci had a deal with the bank to buy all the cars for 35k.   My dad was going to get the SS Mercedes,  Ted was getting the Duesenbergs,  Tony wanted the Isotta.   The lawyers caboshed the deal sadly.   I might be driving around in that SS this afternoon if it happened.

[tomkonrad]

56 minutes ago, alsancle said:

I believe I provided most of the Bird auction photos to the CCCA magazine when they published that article.   My uncle Ted Billings and my dad along with Tony Pascucci had a deal with the bank to buy all the cars for 35k.   My dad was going to get the SS Mercedes,  Ted was getting the Duesenbergs,  Tony wanted the Isotta.   The lawyers caboshed the deal sadly.   I might be driving around in that SS this afternoon if it happened.

Incredible! It would have been great if you did have it. 

 

Do you recall what the colour scheme of the IF was at that time? Was it in fact a dark blue? And the roof and interior colors? I assume the roof was beige, but perhaps a light grey??? I've been dying to know for a long time and it's proven very difficult to discover these details.

 

Tom

[alsancle]

Sorry Tom, my dad passed last year so we can’t ask him. The pictures were all black and white.

[Walt G]

I am about to work on a story of the Bird estate auction - I was there with my parents and beyond the cars for sale the parking lot in the field next to the garages was full with spectators cars and a good number of them drove there in their CCCA classic just for fun. John Wemple drove there from NJ in his 1937 Packard 12 club sedan.

The story of what I recall and the history of the Duesenberg Beverly sedan is the focus , I have a photo copy of the action catalog that Austin Clark made notes in as he bought a Bugatti race car there that Wallace Bird used at the Roosevelt Raceway in Westbury, NY pre war.

To many stories yet to be told but many club and commercial publications are now focusing on the post war era with no room ( not even 4 pages to quote an Editor ) for the earlier cars. I find this interesting as the most popular thread on these forums is one about photos/comments/information  of pre WWII era cars. I guess certain editors can't agree with that.

[tomkonrad]

On 10/31/2023 at 10:16 AM, Walt G said:

I am about to work on a story of the Bird estate auction - I was there with my parents and beyond the cars for sale the parking lot in the field next to the garages was full with spectators cars and a good number of them drove there in their CCCA classic just for fun. John Wemple drove there from NJ in his 1937 Packard 12 club sedan.

The story of what I recall and the history of the Duesenberg Beverly sedan is the focus , I have a photo copy of the action catalog that Austin Clark made notes in as he bought a Bugatti race car there that Wallace Bird used at the Roosevelt Raceway in Westbury, NY pre war.

To many stories yet to be told but many club and commercial publications are now focusing on the post war era with no room ( not even 4 pages to quote an Editor ) for the earlier cars. I find this interesting as the most popular thread on these forums is one about photos/comments/information  of pre WWII era cars. I guess certain editors can't agree with that.

Walt, I agree with the focus on post-war cars, but that seems to be the way it's heading for now to the disappointment of all of us pre-war car enthusiasts...

 

Regarding your story on the Bird estate auction, where will it be published when completed? I am very interested in reading it.

 

Thanks!

 

Tom

[kar3516]

On 10/31/2023 at 9:16 AM, Walt G said:

I am about to work on a story of the Bird estate auction - I was there with my parents and beyond the cars for sale the parking lot in the field next to the garages was full with spectators cars and a good number of them drove there in their CCCA classic just for fun. John Wemple drove there from NJ in his 1937 Packard 12 club sedan.

The story of what I recall and the history of the Duesenberg Beverly sedan is the focus , I have a photo copy of the action catalog that Austin Clark made notes in as he bought a Bugatti race car there that Wallace Bird used at the Roosevelt Raceway in Westbury, NY pre war.

To many stories yet to be told but many club and commercial publications are now focusing on the post war era with no room ( not even 4 pages to quote an Editor ) for the earlier cars. I find this interesting as the most popular thread on these forums is one about photos/comments/information  of pre WWII era cars. I guess certain editors can't agree with that.

I agree that the focus on post war cars is WWII is unfortunate.  Unfortunately for most of the country it is/was a self-fulfilling prophecy.  The CCCA classic cars are basically never seen by the general population at large; especially in the center of the country.  Cars shows in Texas during my lifetime have been packed with early Ford hot rods, mid 50s cars, and muscle cars.  As a certified car nut from Texas since I was 15 years old, the first true CCCA classic I ever saw was a Lincoln K sedan in a garage in Sundown TX when I was approximately 40 years old.  I thought it was huge compared to the early V8 Fords I had seen and that my dad favored.  The second time was when the Great American Race stopped in Granbury TX on a day that my wife and I happened to be there.  I’ve been at Hershey the past three years; participants there complain about missing what it used to be.  I think the pre WWII CCCA guys on or near the east and west coasts don’t know how good they have it in comparison to most of the country

Edited November 3, 2023 by kar3516 (see edit history)

[Walt G]

To really appreciate the pre war classic cars ( or any car)  you have to see them in person. It is a visual exercise not only in styling and design but also in volume - the size comparison as you stated. It is like watching a movie on a TV screen or computer then also seeing it in a theatre - no comparison. I belonged to CCCA for 45 years also for over 30 years contributed to their publications , I left 6 years ago .

In order to see the cars appreciated there has to be some more public display of the cars, perhaps a joint regional meet between AACA ( or a one make club?) and CCCA so that the owners of the cars and some of the general public can talk to the owners and respectfully see a door, hood, trunk lid, rumble seat  opened by the owner to show the inside as well.

This falls upon the attitude and thoughts of the club officers and board members, the region officers as well. Make people feel welcome and they will follow and join. Classic car events should just not be restricted to "concours" displays .

Edited November 3, 2023 by Walt G (see edit history)

[8E45E]

An I-F in the Canadian Automotive Museum in Oshawa:  Orphan of the Day, 08-02, 1929 Isotta-Fraschini - Studebaker Drivers Club Forum

 

One that was in the Imperial Palace Musuem in Las Vegas, (not a LeBaron body)  Orphan of the Day, 03-27, 1930 Isotta Fraschini Tipo 8A Castagna - Studebaker Drivers Club Forum

 

Craig

[tomkonrad]

On 11/6/2023 at 7:42 AM, 8E45E said:

An I-F in the Canadian Automotive Museum in Oshawa:  Orphan of the Day, 08-02, 1929 Isotta-Fraschini - Studebaker Drivers Club Forum

 

One that was in the Imperial Palace Musuem in Las Vegas, (not a LeBaron body)  Orphan of the Day, 03-27, 1930 Isotta Fraschini Tipo 8A Castagna - Studebaker Drivers Club Forum

 

Craig

Hello Craig,

 

I can speak on the IF at the Canadian Automotive Museum in Oshawa because I've conducted research on it for them a few months ago!

 

It is an absolutely incredible example with "Torpedo-Bateau" coachwork by Carrozzeria Cesare Sala. 

 

The car has an incredible story. In short, it was shown at Olympia and purchased by Cyril Gleeson from the Republic of Ireland after he traveled to the show to purchase a "small sports car" in his words, and was won over by the Isotta Fraschini when he saw it. Years later it made its way to the USA and then to Canada where it lives now 

 

I've tracked down documents including letters written by Cyril describing the car and his purchase and ownership experience. 

 

Attached are some photos of the car when on the show stand at Olympia. Note that it looks very different. That is because he had it repainted, re-upholstered, and the woodwork re-done in mahogany. He painted it green, and other than the "new" color it received at some later point in its life that it has now, is all original. 

 

Also, I've attached more photos showing the car at Pebble Beach, and from years ago in Toronto, Canada.

 

There are a few examples with similar coachwork. One resides in Italy, and there is another that is currently missing, which had slightly different front fenders.

 

I'm happy to elaborate on the topic if anyone is interested. Please let me know!

 

Tom

[alsancle]

Awesome!

[8E45E]

Thanks for the information!

 

Yes, would love to know more.

 

Craig

[tomkonrad]

39 minutes ago, alsancle said:

Awesome!

 

26 minutes ago, 8E45E said:

Thanks for the information!

 

Yes, would love to know more.

 

Craig

In the coming days, I will create a dedicated post for this car and the others built in its style. This way I can go into further detail there, as I would like to keep this thread generally focused on the LeBaron boattail convertible coupe's.

 

I appreciate the interest!!!

 

Tom

[8E45E]

13 hours ago, tomkonrad said:

In the coming days, I will create a dedicated post for this car and the others built in its style.

Thanks!

 

When you start your new post, I'll directly upload those same photos on it as opposed to a link as I did above.

 

Craig