1927 Lincoln V8 No spark.

[Speede]

1927 Lincoln V8 original unrestored car, but has had some questionable “mechanic” work done years ago. Car sat for 50 years. I put gas to it, and it started, but carb needed service. Put head gaskets on while I was at it. Now no spark condition. Put an extra spark plug on a wire and grounded it to head while car being cranked. No spark.  Power to coils and one set of points. Trip points with screwdriver and get nice blue spark. Other set very weak if you can get any spark at all with a screwdriver. 
When I resume tomorrow, I’m going to look for a ground problem on the second set. 
Will the car run on one set of points? All suggestions welcome. 
I’m just out of my zone with this. 

[edinmass]

Let’s try to be clear. It’s a dual point’s distributor? So from what you are saying one bank is fine? Only one side is dead? Single or dual coil? It could be a condenser, coil, primary power issue, points shorted to ground, not rocket science. 
 

Will it run on one bank of four? Probably, but if it’s been sitting and compression is down from stick rings or loaded plugs, or a weak starter it would be hard to start unless you use ether.

 

Did you do a compression check, and drop the pan? If not, start there first. Lots of Lincoln guys here who can help you with the fork and blade V-8 platform. I’m sure they will chime in.

[Oldtech]

Did you check that the distributor is turning?  As Ed says, we need to know if it has 2 coils or one.  

[m-mman]

Model L Lincolns have 2 coils.  Mounted behind the dash, both feed the single distributor. Two coil entry points into the cap and two contacts for the single rotor.  Two points, one for each coil. 

 

Common issue on L Lincolns. . . The condensers.

They are located deep inside the distributor and the distributor must be removed and disassembled to access or change them.  Modern condensers can be adapted to fit inside OR it is common to mount replacement condensers on the outside of the distributor for future maintenance. 

[Speede]

48 minutes ago, Oldtech said:

Did you check that the distributor is turning?  As Ed says, we need to know if it has 2 coils or one.  

 

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

Let’s try to be clear. It’s a dual point’s distributor? So from what you are saying one bank is fine? Only one side is dead? Single or dual coil? It could be a condenser, coil, primary power issue, points shorted to ground, not rocket science. 
 

Will it run on one bank of four? Probably, but if it’s been sitting and compression is down from stick rings or loaded plugs, or a weak starter it would be hard to start unless you use ether.

 

Did you do a compression check, and drop the pan? If not, start there first. Lots of Lincoln guys here who can help you with the fork and blade V-8 platform. I’m sure they will chime in.

The car did run smoothly on all 8 at idle when I first got it started. 
After I completed service is when the trouble started. 
2 coils. Yes. They are modern oil filled coils. 
Yes. Dual  points. 
Are you saying one set runs one side of the engine and the other set runs the other?  If that’s the case I would have expected it to at least sound like it was trying to fire. 
I only checked for spark on one plug on one side. (passenger) 
I’ll see if the other side has spark tomorrow.(drivers) 

I was thinking it could be the one set grounding somewhere. That’s the point I was at my my wife called me to come eat dinner. 
Picking the brains of the AACA members before I try again in the morning. 

[m-mman]

13 minutes ago, Speede said:

Are you saying one set runs one side of the engine and the other set runs the other?  

If only it were that easy. Leland designed 60 degree V8. 

Firing order is scattered between right and left bank. 

Sorry my pictures always post sideways. But this should help. 

Edited March 10, 2023 by m-mman (see edit history)

[Speede]

1 minute ago, m-mman said:

Model L Lincolns have 2 coils.  Mounted behind the dash, both feed the single distributor. Two coil entry points into the cap and two contacts for the single rotor.  Two points, one for each coil. 

 

Common issue on L Lincolns. . . The condensers.

They are located deep inside the distributor and the distributor must be removed and disassembled to access or change them.  Modern condensers can be adapted to fit inside OR it is common to mount replacement condensers on the outside of the distributor for future maintenance. 

Thanks for the information. 
I’m sorry I don’t have a picture to show. I believe this has external condensers, bolted to the side. The set of points that is working is making blue spark. 
The non working side hardly makes any at all. Not even yellow (Bad condenser) spark. 
This particular Lincoln had the factory looking coils mounted low on the side of the engine compartment. The 2 newer coils are mounted next to them. 

[Speede]

Just now, m-mman said:

If only it were that easy. Leland designed 60 degree V8. 

Firing order is scattered between right and left bank. 

Thank you.
Oh the firing order is easy,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8, it’s just the cylinder numbers that are wacky. Lol 

[Bloo]

6 hours ago, Speede said:

When I resume tomorrow, I’m going to look for a ground problem on the second set. 

Good plan.

6 hours ago, Speede said:

Will the car run on one set of points?

Probably not. If it did, it would be running on 4 cylinders.

 

You can think of this as 2 separate 4 cylinder ignition systems. Most likely they fire alternately. I would avoid adjusting any points for now. The 2 "systems" will be the same. Check both and compare.

 

Key on, points open, you should have battery voltage (more or less) on both connections to one coil (small wires). No voltage? Figure out why. Only on the supply side? Disconnect the wire going to the points. Still no voltage on the points side of the coil? Bad coil. Voltage on both sides of the coil now? Something is shorting the points out. It's as if the points never open. Do whatever is necessary to clear the short.

 

Now hook the wire back up if you had it disconnected and close the points by moving the crank a little. You should still have battery voltage on the supply side, but nearly nothing on the points side now that the points are closed. If there's significant voltage still there on the points side with the points closed, the points are not grounding the coil (as you suspected). If the points do ground the coil, and the voltage goes to zero (more or less) on the points side with the points closed, it's fine. Check for spark at the coil wire (not a plug wire). Still no spark? The condenser is probably bad. If that doesn't fix it, try a coil.

 

Repeat the last 2 paragraphs for the other coil, points, and condenser. I think you'll find the problem.

 

Once again, avoid any points adjustment for now. The points in a distributor like that must be set up so that the 2 "systems" are an exact number of degrees apart. Otherwise you will have 4 cylinders either leading or lagging in time. The easiest way to set something like that is with a distributor machine. Doing it without, while possible, is going to be very time consuming.

 

 

Edited March 10, 2023 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

If they are typical old wax paper and foil condensers you are lucky they worked at all. They deteriorate over time and eventually fail, no one knows when. You could add modern mylar condensers, or capacitors, to the coils and they would work just as well as inside the distributor. While being isolated from heat oil and vibration.

[Speede]

Well, got it started. 
thanks to all that responded. 
seems to have been a missing insulated washer on the points post. 
also discovered intermittent power to coils from the switch. Evidently whoever worked on this thing 50 years ago was working on something similar. There was a jumper wire from the coils long enough to get to battery power. 

[Bloo]

One reason for the jumper might be ballast resistors. Some Fords and Lincolns in the 1930s used them. I don't know about 1927, but it wouldn't surprise me if it had a pair of them.

 

Modern normally shaped 6 volt coils don't use ballast resistors. If the Lincoln had some ballast resistors, and they weren't removed from the coil supply lines, for instance if they were under the dash and no one saw them, the jumpering may have been done to get full voltage to the coils.

 

[Speede]

4 hours ago, Bloo said:

One reason for the jumper might be ballast resistors. Some Fords and Lincolns in the 1930s used them. I don't know about 1927, but it wouldn't surprise me if it had a pair of them.

 

Modern normally shaped 6 volt coils don't use ballast resistors. If the Lincoln had some ballast resistors, and they weren't removed from the coil supply lines, for instance if they were under the dash and no one saw them, the jumpering may have been done to get full voltage to the coils.

 

I’ll be looking for that when I go after the intermittent power issue. 
Thank you!