KoBa Posted February 27, 2023 Author Share Posted February 27, 2023 10 minutes ago, Dandy Dave said: I called them and had good results. Doing a little research a Model TBC is a 5 ton truck. A 1-1/2 ton truck would be a model GTB. This is what you would want copied. Box 10, File 25. for a 1912, 1-1/2 ton model GTB Alas, calling is not my option - I can't speak English, just write and read :). About GTB - it's interesting. But for some reason I thought he was a much more powerful machine. In addition, I was inclined to believe the sources about TBC, since it is reliably known that this French armored car was on a TBC 1.5ton chassis. And it was about the same time and the car is comparable in size. There was also a purely US armored car on a TBC 1.5ton chassis. But this one seems to have been a little later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandy Dave Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 This is a 1-1/2 ton truck. Also a TDB Box 10, File 33. Look here. http://catalog.wrhs.org/collections/view?docId=ead/MS5319.xml;chunk.id=c01_1D;brand=default Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoBa Posted February 28, 2023 Author Share Posted February 28, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, Dandy Dave said: This is a 1-1/2 ton truck. Also a TDB Box 10, File 33. Look here. http://catalog.wrhs.org/collections/view?docId=ead/MS5319.xml;chunk.id=c01_1D;brand=default Yes, there are many more interesting things there. I emailed them yesterday. There is no answer yet. Maybe because I listed a lot. Can I ask you once again to say your opinion on the possibility of сhanging the angle of the steering rod and/or shortening the rod so that the steering wheel becomes lower? Ideally, the task is to lower the driver's seat down, taking into account the operation of levers and pedals. The height in the cabin really bothers me. And one more question (sorry to bother you). It seems you wrote earlier in another thread that TBC later became Model 20. Did I get that right? By the way, in the library catalog, the truck that is 5 ton is not TBC, but it is TCB - if I guessed which 5 ton truck you mentioned at the beginning. Edited February 28, 2023 by KoBa (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoBa Posted February 28, 2023 Author Share Posted February 28, 2023 It says there that it is TBC (1918). It looks like the wheelbase is more than 4 meters. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 Looking at this problem from a purely engineering perspective I think it very unlikely thay the widened the rear axle. This would be a major undertaking...as would widening the front axle since it's a forging, not a casting. That would have been an expensive task for heavy industry. Such plants did exist in Russia but they would have been working flat out in 1915. I also think it is very unlikely they changed the wheel size since as a truck it would already have had solid tires. What looks like steel wheels are probably covers to protect the spokes. If you take the outside dimension of a standard wheel and tire for the various possible chassis (a figure that probably is available) you might have a reference you can work with. Despite the work that went in to creating an armored car on a truck chassis I doubt they would have changed anything they didn't have to change. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoBa Posted March 1, 2023 Author Share Posted March 1, 2023 45 minutes ago, JV Puleo said: Looking at this problem from a purely engineering perspective I think it very unlikely thay the widened the rear axle. This would be a major undertaking...as would widening the front axle since it's a forging, not a casting. That would have been an expensive task for heavy industry. Such plants did exist in Russia but they would have been working flat out in 1915. I also think it is very unlikely they changed the wheel size since as a truck it would already have had solid tires. What looks like steel wheels are probably covers to protect the spokes. If you take the outside dimension of a standard wheel and tire for the various possible chassis (a figure that probably is available) you might have a reference you can work with. Despite the work that went in to creating an armored car on a truck chassis I doubt they would have changed anything they didn't have to change. Yes. I almost completely agree with you. On the front axle, definitely - for the sake of just one truck, even the Russians won't go crazy so much. But I'm still not sure about the rear axle. I know for sure that they would not request special spare parts from the manufacturer. They didn't have time for that. But if something can be done from improvised means, using a crowbar and a sledgehammer, then no "major undermining" has ever stopped the Russians. (And this often leads to trouble, but they don't care). When I try to recreate this layout, I constantly want to expand the wheelbase - at least the rear axle. Although it's probably still optional. The central tower could be only about 2 meters and for a wheelbase of 1.4 m, such a difference does not look like a prohibition. And yes - there is no point in doing what is not necessary. That's just the width of the rear tower... After all, there should fit a man and a Hotchkiss cannon... As for the wheels, you are absolutely right. One of the photos even shows that the wheels were ordinary, but then their centers were covered with hoods. Only it seems to me that at that time there was a very large range of solutions regarding tires from different manufacturers. And every inch on the tire will change the whole scale dramatically. Anyway, thanks for your thoughts... I will probably still try to pay attention to the width of the tires again - it can be successful. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 That is almost certainly a full floating axle. It would be VERY difficult to alter... Take a look at my thread on my 1910 Mitchell. It just so happens I'm rebuilding such an axle right now and I think I can say with a large degree of confidence that altering the width would have been a major undertaking, maybe even impossible in a military work shop and just as daunting a task as altering the front axle. They would have had to make new axle tubes. Aligning them would have required special fixtures that only the maker had and would be both complicated and expensive to make. New axles would have been needed as well and those would need to be heat treated. A White truck differential would have been much more robust than the one I'm working on and all the more difficult to alter. It just doesn't make any sense, especially if they were in a hurry (as they were in 1915). It is not a job that could be done with a sledge hammer and a crowbar! However, dual rear wheels makes a lot of sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 If it was a single shot Hotchkiss cannon, it isn't very big. If it was a Hotchkiss revolving cannon, that's another story but even those are quite short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoBa Posted March 1, 2023 Author Share Posted March 1, 2023 6 hours ago, JV Puleo said: That is almost certainly a full floating axle. It would be VERY difficult to alter... Thanks. You have eliminated my doubts. That's what I wanted to hear from the experts. Now I'll leave the rear axle as standard. Although then it turns out that the man with the gun was in the rear tower in a space about 1 meter wide. It doesn't look so narrow in the photo. But the gun was not revolver, only 37mm caliber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 It is was common for the space inside an armored vehicle to be very cramped. In fact, they purposely recruited small men to man them. I think this car is bitter than the Renault tanks that the French and American used and they also had the 37mm Hotchkiss gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoBa Posted March 1, 2023 Author Share Posted March 1, 2023 47 minutes ago, JV Puleo said: It is was common for the space inside an armored vehicle to be very cramped. In fact, they purposely recruited small men to man them. I think this car is bitter than the Renault tanks that the French and American used and they also had the 37mm Hotchkiss gun. Yes. And if you're interested, the same engineer wanted to put the same central tower on the Renault chassis. They made 11 of them. Then everything was redone, because the cars were overloaded. It is always useful to be able to calculate. Sorry, could you please else give your opinion on the next issue: Is it possible to сhange the angle of the steering rod and/or shortening the rod so that the steering wheel becomes lower on that trucks? Ideally, the task is to lower the driver's seat down, taking into account the operation of levers and pedals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 (edited) I would say very likely yes but bear in mind that I don't have a White chassis to look at. However, most trucks were supplied as a chassis. The body was built by another company to serve a specific purpose. As such, the maker often didn't know what sort of body it would get and so the steering box/column was adjustable. Often, all that was required was a different fitting on the firewall to hold the column. But again, I'd have to look at a White truck chassis to be certain. I will say that one of the most common things done by people building a "speedster" on a truck (or car) chassis is to lower the column. In most cases it is not difficult. It's certainly easier than altering the axle width! Edited March 1, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 Also, keep in mind that a tremendous amount of the "common knowledge" we take for granted simply wasn't there. Competent engineers made errors in calculating just how powerful early motors were. They weren't stupid but a great deal of what we accept as established fact today hadn't been arrived at. I'm not surprised they made the car too heavy...again they really didn't understand the limits of what an engine could accomplish and this must have been even more the case in Russia where only a small percentage of the population had any exposure to cars or trucks...at least until the war. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoBa Posted March 1, 2023 Author Share Posted March 1, 2023 48 minutes ago, JV Puleo said: I would say... Thank you very much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandy Dave Posted March 3, 2023 Share Posted March 3, 2023 On 2/28/2023 at 10:35 AM, KoBa said: Yes, there are many more interesting things there. I emailed them yesterday. There is no answer yet. Maybe because I listed a lot. Can I ask you once again to say your opinion on the possibility of сhanging the angle of the steering rod and/or shortening the rod so that the steering wheel becomes lower? Ideally, the task is to lower the driver's seat down, taking into account the operation of levers and pedals. The height in the cabin really bothers me. And one more question (sorry to bother you). It seems you wrote earlier in another thread that TBC later became Model 20. Did I get that right? By the way, in the library catalog, the truck that is 5 ton is not TBC, but it is TCB - if I guessed which 5 ton truck you mentioned at the beginning. Here's some dimensions for you. 1. Where the column comes out of the floor board to the bottom of the steering spider = 27 inches. To the top of the steering wheel ring =32 inches. 2. From the floor to the center line of the steering spider = 28 inches. 3. Dash to the back of the cab without seat padding = 45 inches. 4. Floor to seat height = 12 inches without padding. 5. Seat width = 20-1/4 inches. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoBa Posted March 3, 2023 Author Share Posted March 3, 2023 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Dandy Dave said: Here's some dimensions for you. ... Thank you very much - this is very important information for me. Today is a brilliant day - I also managed to find the almanac "Motor Trucks of America" 1914. It turned out that at that time TBC trucks were produced on a chassis that was even shorter by 40cm. It's puzzling, but the truth is more important. I'm step by step moving forward! Thank you very much for your assistance. Edited March 3, 2023 by KoBa (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted March 3, 2023 Share Posted March 3, 2023 Historical research is largely what I do in real life. One of my colleagues once commented that it's like unravelling a sweater...you get hold of a thread and eventually the whole thing comes apart. It looks easy until you've done it... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoBa Posted March 3, 2023 Author Share Posted March 3, 2023 1 hour ago, JV Puleo said: Historical research is largely what I do in real life. One of my colleagues once commented that it's like unravelling a sweater...you get hold of a thread and eventually the whole thing comes apart. It looks easy until you've done it... Yes. For me it is very interesting and exciting, but it takes a lot of time. And the most unpleasant thing is to feel that you are taking up the time of others as well. Unfortunately, US libraries and archives are not very ready to communicate with foreigners. They don't even have forms for that. And I can't speak fluently on the phone. I have to pester people with questions. Fortunately, as it turned out, in the USA there are many not only enthusiastic, but also kind people. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoBa Posted March 3, 2023 Author Share Posted March 3, 2023 Haha! Today I was leafing through periodicals. And in The Motor Truck 1914 /November/ on the page 774 found the following:"...The White trucks had what is known as the Russian design. These cars are the regular two-ton model, the motor having a bore of 3-3/4 inches and a stroke of 5-1/4. The wheel base is 145-1/2 inches and the tires are 3-1/2 – inch, solids all around, with duals in the rear. The load carrying platform measures nine feet six inches long and six feet wide." (c) Who is cool? - I am!.. and archivists of the USA. I don’t know who this great person who digitized this magazine is, but he is super one! True, there is again a problem. I still don't believe that the wheelbase can be less than 4m (157-1/2") on this particular car. My eyes persuade me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted March 4, 2023 Share Posted March 4, 2023 Excellent. It seems that the information is out there, it just takes a lot of digging to find it. A huge amount of new data is available from periodicals that, were it not for these digitizing programs, most people would never see. This is just a guess...but a slightly longer wheel base would not be a problem for white. Did the trucks have a drive shaft or a torque tube? If a drive shaft the wheel base could have been increased...not easily but certainly doable in a military workshop, especially if they were also maintaining military railroads... The frame would have been cut and a piece would have been added. It would need a new drive shaft and probably brake rods. People shorten frames all the time which is essentially the same problem albeit it going the other way. But, I would work with the dimensions from the magazine article first... And your written English is far better than average...Years ago one of my teachers visited the Moscow offices of Pravda and saw a number of people translating American newspaper articles. They asked her to read one...because while they could read it, and translate it, they didn't know what English sounded like! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoBa Posted March 4, 2023 Author Share Posted March 4, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, JV Puleo said: The frame would have been cut and a piece would have been added. It would need a new drive shaft and probably brake rods. Yes, probably they could lengthen the frame in the workshop. There was a period in my memory, in the 90s, when ours did a very good business, turning almost any used foreign car into limousines. Then they rented them out for weddings and funerals. They managed to do everything in one private garage and without additional spare parts at all. But still, I don’t think that they would dare to cut the frame, which will have to be heavily overloaded. Rather, the second turret with a cannon appeared because they saw an additional place on the donated chassis - this is the natural course of things. At the same time, one size always dictates another. The cab can not be moved forward - there is an engine. And the central tower cannot be further narrowed - the gunners will not be able to turn around. At the same time, we see in the photo that the rear wheel is not under the tower at all. With a wheelbase equal to 157-1/2", with difficulty, but still we can assume that we will see the location how does it fit. This is only because the tower is round and the far side of the tower is hiding. And with a length equal to 145-1/2" it's hard for me to believe it. Although of course when I make the 3D model I can check partially how everything looks in perspective, but.. The funny thing is that, based on the catalogs I found, White produced a 2-ton truck (Model 20) that would completely fit under the photo. But he began to mass-produce it probably only from the 1920. And it is desirable for us to find a serial (ordinary) car. Or "unordinary", but usual for supply to Russia. Then it is the most reliable. The problem with English is that I mainly learned it back in the USSR. And there was no way to communicate with native English speakers. So there is no practice of speech. Therefore, there is even a legend that we were specially taught so that we could write, but not speak. It is like the goal was we could work with enemy documentation, but not talk to foreigners. Although this is of course not true, just such conditions and features of learning. Edited March 4, 2023 by KoBa (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandy Dave Posted March 4, 2023 Share Posted March 4, 2023 For the record. My old White has a Drive Shaft. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandy Dave Posted March 4, 2023 Share Posted March 4, 2023 Several more dimensions for you. Total width of the cab where the seat sits 45 inches. The "step in" below the seat is 34-1/2 inches. The fuel tank is under the seat. The floor board is also 34-1/2 inches wide all the way to the Dash. Center of steering column is 27 inches from the passenger side and 7-1/2 inches from the drivers side. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoBa Posted March 4, 2023 Author Share Posted March 4, 2023 28 minutes ago, Dandy Dave said: Several more dimensions for you... Thanks a lot. You have really advanced my project a lot. I have no idea where I would have found these figures without your help. Now it looks like I'm armed enough to start making the first sketches. I also allow myself to hope that when it gets warm this will be the opportunity to ask you for some additional photos. But whatever happens in the future, I am very grateful to you. God bless you, your family and your cars! 🤝 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandy Dave Posted March 4, 2023 Share Posted March 4, 2023 7 minutes ago, KoBa said: Thanks a lot. You have really advanced my project a lot. I have no idea where I would have found these figures without your help. Now it looks like I'm armed enough to start making the first sketches. I also allow myself to hope that when it gets warm this will be the opportunity to ask you for some additional photos. But whatever happens in the future, I am very grateful to you. God bless you, your family and your cars! 🤝 Not a problem. Please post photos of the model as you build it, and when it is finished. 🙂 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoBa Posted July 28, 2023 Author Share Posted July 28, 2023 Hello, friends. I want to assure you that my project is not dead and I am moving forward stubbornly. But I have to admit, the work is moving too slowly. Because the first thing is that this project is done on enthusiasm and only in my free time. The second thing is that I do not have full-fledged design documentation and a lot of time is spending on studying disparate materials and fitting parts in place. Thus, there is not much to show yet. However, as proof of the seriousness of my intentions, I can demonstrate the gun that I have already created for this project. Of course, I got a little carried away with this - such thoroughness is not needed. And it also wasted time.https://www.artstation.com/artwork/blJk9o Be that as it may, I again ask for your help. Now I have reached the stage of creating the main units. Found photos are not enough and the greatest difficulty the gearbox is. Here is the best photos I have. As you can see, the shape is complex, but I do not see from all sides. Perhaps someone has more photos from different angles. And maybe somewhere we can even see how the gearbox is attached to the frame. Of course, I as before would be grateful for any kind of any mechanisms and their attachments, but now the gearbox is especially mysterious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 You ask 2 questions I may be able to help with 1) Is it possible to lower the steering wheel? Yes. You would need to remove the steering box from the chassis and file the mounting holes oval. Allowing the steering box to rotate, dropping the steering wheel. You would then need to make a new mount for the steering shaft to the body or dash board. This would interfere with the steering slightly but you could get away with it. 2) Is it possible to lengthen the chassis? Yes. This was done in the period especially when lengthening a passenger car chassis to take a hearse or limousine body. The method was to cut the chassis, pull it apart, then overlap pieces of steel channel and bolt them together. In other words, to lengthen the chassis .5 meter you would use 2 pieces of steel 2 meters long. You would drill holes and put several bolts thru the overlapped area. You would then have to lengthen the drive shaft, brake rods, etc. In the case of the drive shaft the usual method was to keep the original drive shaft, and add a cross member to the frame to support it at the front, then make a short shaft to connect it to the transmission. In the case of a truck with a straight chassis frame it might be easier to remove the spring mounts from the chassis and put them on farther back. Then bolt an extension to the back of the frame if necessary. Both these modifications would not meet the approval of the original manufacturer but they were done. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 You can see by most of the old photos that this model of truck often had dual rear wheels including your armored car. There is even a man standing on the outside wheel in one photo. If you look carefully you can also see that the second wheel rim was bolted onto the outside of the original wheel. In other words, you have one complete wheel and a second that is rim and tire only. This would account for the extra width of the rear axle. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoBa Posted July 29, 2023 Author Share Posted July 29, 2023 13 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said: ... 1) Is it possible to lower the steering wheel? Yes. ... Thanks a lot. This is especially valuable information right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoBa Posted August 2, 2023 Author Share Posted August 2, 2023 Hello. I have one more question. I can't find a picture anywhere that looks like an air filter. Here in this image I can see only a semblance of an air inlet. But didn't this pipe go anywhere further? Perhaps someone can tell or share a picture, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted August 2, 2023 Share Posted August 2, 2023 Air filters were almost unheard of in 1915. The chassis was probably built without one. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoBa Posted August 2, 2023 Author Share Posted August 2, 2023 8 minutes ago, Bloo said: Air filters were almost unheard of in 1915. The chassis was probably built without one. Thanks a lot. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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