1925 Maxwell/Chrysler intake/exhaust manifold question

[Max4Me]

I have been working on my car for a bit and had to pull the intake/exhaust manifolds. There is a tremendous amount of carbon blow-by on the gasket for the end two exhaust ports. The manifolds were simply bolted onto the gasket/block with the tube flanges pressing against the gasket. However, I notice on both the exhaust and intake tubes of the manifolds there are recesses about an eighth inch deep with matching recesses in the block. Was there originally some type of spacer that fit into those recesses to connect the manifolds to the block? Half inch exhaust tubing fits perfectly. By design or coincidence?

[Mark Gregush]

Looks like it would have had gland rings like the Model T, A and 32-34 Ford 4 cylinder engines. Here is a sample; https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/product.htm?pid=979405&cat=41733

[Max4Me]

Mark, that looks like what I expected would be in the recesses. The link doesn't give dimensions. I got some 1 1/2"steel exhaust tubing and thought I could make my own. The slit is a good idea for heat expansion. There is, or was a huge Model T warehouse near me but I believe they're moving locations and haven't given a reopening date. Worth checking, though. Thank you for your reply!

 

Dave

 

[Max4Me]

Follow up: The Model T rings are only 1 3/8" so I think I am going to try to make my own. I'll let you know!

 

[Mark Gregush]

The ones we get now for the T and As are just split exhaust pipe that is cut to length. They do a few things, help support the manifolds and help direct the flow in/out of the manifolds, and to some extent protect the gaskets.

[wayne sheldon]

I have made gland rings for a few cars (including my model Ts when the part suppliers were out of them) A few times, I have found tubing just the right size, and cut the pieces to fit and fill the depth of both sides. Seemed to work just fine.

While having a slit might be a good idea from a potential expansion issue? Such a slit using exhaust pipe tubing may not be a good idea. I did that once. The material from the exhaust pipe tubing, with a slit in it, collapsed in upon itself and wound up in the muffler. Not a big deal, but it left the port without that gland ring that is supposed to be there, for a reason.

Me being me, I had to figure it out, and it came to me. Exhaust pipe, like electrical conduit (which I worked with on and off for many years!), is a softer malleable steel than other types of pipes. They are made so that they can be bent and shaped to fit their applications. Electrical conduit needs to fit around corners and offsets in the building's construction. Exhaust pipes need to be shaped to go around axles and chassis members as well as lining up to multiple mufflers or catalytic converters. That softness is fine up to a point. However, a small piece of that soft steel, heated to the hottest spots that the flaming exhaust can offer as it exits the engine, might just curl up and blow out.

Exhaust pipes are designed to carry those hot gasses away, but the entire length of the pipe acts as a radiator and the flaming gasses begin to cool quickly. The pipe as a unit provides stability to itself. The little piece inside the manifold may or may not tolerate it.

I have used rigid steel pipe pieces with no apparent problems losing the pieces, even with a slit cut into it. My experience for whatever it is worth.

[ArticiferTom]

Wayne , I thought about all thing you mention when putting mine on last year . Oped to us copper pipe . The gasket use copper on edge so heat not problem and did add split . A year and for hundred miles all is fine . Large truck engine gas type from pre Y2K still us steel ferrules . Ebay sells .

[Max4Me]

Mark, thanks for the input. I knew something had to be missing. But now it comes down to slit or no slit. (see Wayne's comments below)

 

Wayne< interesting note on the thinner exhaust pipe curling. I wouldn't be concerned about the rings ending up in a muffler, but the intake manifold uses them, too. I would be very concerned that if they curled and got sucked (well, technically, blown) into the intake side I could be looking at valve damage. Perhaps the smart thing to do is just leave the tubing whole and call it a day.

 

I sincerely thank the both of you for your kind and informative input!

 

Dave

[Max4Me]

8 minutes ago, ArticiferTom said:

Oped to us copper pipe . The gasket use copper on edge so heat not problem and did add split .

ArticiferTom: That's interesting about copper. That actually was my first thought because most head and exhaust gaskets have a copper core. I tried, but failed, to find a local company that carried 1 1/2"copper tubing. Might be time to look a little harder. Thanks for your input.

[ArticiferTom]

I had a piece of two inch I cut off of and squeezed down . Like i said steel ones are still used and sold , too .

[wayne sheldon]

I wouldn't be too concerned about the intake pieces curling in? Although it is theoretically possible, I would expect the constant cooling effect would allow the metal to retain enough rigidity to stay in place. If there were enough taper in the gland cradles (for lack of a better term?)? It could be possible for them to curl in. 

 

As for copper in the exhaust connections? Somebody does (or did?) make copper gland/gaskets that in effect were copper tubing expanded to pinch between the block and the manifold, with what amounted to integral half glands (can't think of a better way to describe it?) that pressed into both the block and the manifolds.

I have not (yet?) myself tried those. But I would like to if they are still available. I have heard good reports for those, but would like to see for myself.

I suspect, that clamped between the block and manifold might keep the copper cool enough to remain in place. However, I would be concerned about the flaming exhaust gasses from burning away much of the gland area? Most people do not realize that the flaming exhaust gasses in many engines can reach temperatures well in excess of 2300 degrees Fahrenheit! The only thing that keeps those engines from melting away the side of the block is that the gasses are forced to exit quickly enough for the block's cooling to keep the block (and manifold itself!) below the melting point. I did see an engine after it was forced to run too long with carburation issues that the exhaust manifold did melt away, just before the tops of the pistons dropped into the oil pan. Talk about a mess!

 

Of course, our antiques hopefully will not generate quite as high heat. On the other hand, seeing a model T Ford with the carburetor just a bit too lean, or timing a bit retarded? Not unusual to see the exhaust manifold a bright glowing red. Not good for it either.

[Max4Me]

Wayne: Never an easy answer is there? This is my first antique car to work on and clear answers are hard to come by. Maybe it's time to just flip a coin. Thank you for the food-for-thought, though. It is appreciated (from all of you).

[ArticiferTom]

I used mine in combo with a Remflex all material gasket . The ferules just keep alignment though heat cycles and prevent hard flame from hitting gasket . They are not even necessary per manufacture of gasket . I only put on exhaust .  Also am using on Plymouth 4  engine with step in head and manifold .

   These ferules should not be confused with older type copper gasket rings used on these engines as the only seal and where individual . 

[viv w]

The 3 Chrysler 4 cylinder cars, models 50 and 52 that I restored, had copper asbestos gaskets between the manifold and block, there were no gland rings, like those I have seen on model A Fords. Also there is no mention of gland rings in the Chrysler master parts list, they only list gaskets.

 Regards

Viv

[Tonz]

I recently had my 1926 Chrysler 50 manifolds off, and they did have steel rings in each recess.

These are, i imagine, to flow the exhaust past the gasket, also it's the only thing that aligns the manifold to engine block.

The steel ones could easily be cut from exhaust tube of correct diameter.

Mine were a snug fit which helps assembly.