1937 better front brakes

[drrotor]

In restoring my Coupe Express (beam axle 5A), I’m staying with the beautiful original  Artillery Wheels-  16”. I’m upgrading the rear end to an early 50’s 2R5 1/2 ton Dana 44 rear end with better 4.09 gearing, which also has somewhat better brakes than the ‘37 did. But the front brakes… just not up to freeway driving. Any good suggestions on improving or replacing them? Do newer Stude truck brakes bolt on? And if so, what year/model specifically? 
I could be ok with going to disc brakes if:

-they fit the ‘37 wheels

-are a straight-forward swap not requiring a machine shop (although I’m willing to listen)

this is not a hot-rod— (even though it’s got a bored out 245 and a 5-speed), and I want it to appear relatively stock. Recommendations requested especially from someone who’s actually done it. Thanks guys!

[SMB]

I built my own for my 37 president using Geo Tracker rotors.   I made the bracket and have a template available.  I have no idea if they will accept the artillery wheels.   

I would to go back and dig in the files for part numbers.   I did power them on my car.  MY APOLOGIES FOR NOT REALIZING YOUR PROJECT IS A CE.   Maybe the info will help anyway.

Edited December 19, 2021 by SMB (see edit history)

[SMB]

Additional info.   I used the original hubs and IIRC I did have to have them machined a bit to fit inside the rotor.  I don't recall exactly how I achieved the correct bolt pattern.  It was 11 years ago.

I must have drilled a new pattern in the rotors. The Dictator probably has a smaller hub than the President I does.  They work great!

Edited December 19, 2021 by SMB (see edit history)

[drrotor]

Nice work! I don’t know if the beam axle and the Planar suspension share the same hub… anyone?

[(S)]

The part number for the Front HUB is  191757.     This was used  on M 5  up to early  2 R trucks  .  I would guess the whole hub and drum would upgrade the front just like it does for the rear.....

[Gary_Ash]

That hub 191757 is a REAR wheel hub, not front.  For 1937 cars and J5 C-E trucks, the front hub is 511295, used as early as 1934.  Things changed for 1938, so the later cars and trucks, including M5's,  used different hubs and wheel bearings as well as different brake drums and shoes.  I was able to put 1963-64 truck brakes on my 1948 M5 truck, an easy bolt-on change.  Would the 1964-64 backing plates fit your spindles?  Those later truck brakes use the same shoes, wheel cylinders, and small parts as the Lark-type cars, but the wheel bolt pattern is different between cars and trucks.  I have wondered if the Lark backing plates could be re-drilled to fit older trucks - and maybe your spindles. 

 

This doesn't sound like a done-deal swap.  You may have to get the drawings for the spindles, hubs, backing plates, drums, and shoes from the Studebaker National Museum archives to check dimensions.

 

Brakes from 8E5 and 8E7 trucks, late 1963-64.

[rbk]

Check with Jim Turner.He builds disk brake systems or later Studebaker and his last project was the build a disk brake system for early Champions.

He maybe interested in building a disk brake setup for earlier cars

http://www.turnerbrake.com

[(S)]

Sorry I looked at the wrong line.    I was looking at hubs only, and unless I missed something  I was suggesting use your hub with a later truck drum. 

 191645 is the one I was looking at.   The backing plate may need to be centered and drilled.  I have some here to check.

[(S)]

I see.  It won't do 1937  but would do a 38, 39.

[drrotor]

Well I have another thought. Has anyone tried to put 1940’s spindles on a ‘37 front axle? If they would interchange (or are they the same?), then Turner Brakes disc brake kits would bolt right on. 
I have new king pin rebuild kits for my ‘37… could they be used or modified to make the newer spindles fit?

[Gary_Ash]

It seems that 1937 was the last year that beam axles were used in the cars, after that only planar suspension through 1950.  The knuckles/spindles are completely different animals, so there is no swapping later stuff to the 1937 axle.  Note that SMB's disk brake adapter shown in a post above is on a 1937 President with planar suspension, so his template won't help on your car, though it's a good concept.  Maybe different linings would improve your existing brakes. 

 

EDIT:  Here might be some good news:  The wheel bearings, cups and cones, are the same for 1937-42 Dictator/Commander cars as well as for Presidents, so a later hub might fit and the bolt pattern should be the same (5 on 5?).  So if a 1963-64 truck backing plate or Lark-type plate can be re-drilled to fit, you might have a shot at the later shoe brakes and drums.  You'll have to check that your artillery wheels fit the hump in the later drums.   

Edited December 22, 2021 by Gary_Ash (see edit history)

[John DePrey]

The difference is easily seen comparing plate 12-1 to 12-4 in the 34-46 chassis catalog. The 5A/J5 spindle has a rectangular portion protruding thru the backing plate, and uses a 2 x 2-3/8 rectangular bolt pattern on the plate. Yes Kenny I took off a wheel and drum just for you.  The 6A - up spindle has a circular bolt pattern and a cylindrical boss protruding thru. 

The spindle to brake interface on a postwar truck appears same as on a prewar Planar car so I believe Turner's truck kit would work on a 6A up IF the rim clears, but not on a 5A/J5.  Note this is a 12" Fleetwood rotor. I pulled a wheel off my '59 (it's on the lift anyway) with Turner discs on it and check fit a '37 artillery wheel; the spokes interfere with the tips of the floating caliper pins... so we're 0 for 2.

if you don't have the chassis manual, I have 2...trade my spare for a half rack of space dust...

I even thought of an axle swap, but the leaf perches are 4" closer together on the J5. 

I would observe that the wheel cylinders on the J5 are HUGE and, at 11 x 1-3/4", the shoes/drums with good liners might be up to the job. The J5 would be easy to adapt a dual MC to too. 

[drrotor]

You all are great. John, thanks for going to that effort. But looking back at my previous post, I realize my question wasn’t clear. 
Gary— you thought I was talking about using car spindles from the ‘50’s. No, what I’m asking is whether spindles from an early ‘50’s 1/2 ton truck with beam axle would interchange (or rather, FIT) onto the ‘37 beam axle. Because Turner does make a disc kit to fit early’50’s trucks…

[Gary_Ash]

Good job by John!

 

Yes, I thought about the truck knuckles, too.  The best ones would be from 2R5 or later half-ton trucks which use the king pins that are 1/2-inch longer, though they can be used on all of the M5 trucks (like mine).  The knuckle forging number is 102512, part numbers 677604 (R) and 677605 (L).  I couldn't find a way to cross-index the truck parts as they all have different part numbers from the cars even if the parts are identical.  I also wonder if you could just swap in an entire 2R5 front axle.  It would depend on the space between the front springs, but I think the Dictator/CE frames were much narrower in front, say 24-5/16 inches versus about 41 inches for the 2R5 trucks. 

 

Here is the longer king pin used on the knuckles listed above.  The diameter is .8025 inch.  I don't know the thickness of the axle where the pin goes in, i.e. how much length of the pin is in the axle.  If your king pins are the same diameter, that's a start to switching knuckles. 

 

 

[John DePrey]

On 12/22/2021 at 9:37 PM, drrotor said:

 

I have a keen interest in seeing someone figuring this out  lol

[Gary_Ash]

This needs a volunteer to go to the Museum and, with Andy Beckman’s permission and support, pull the drawings for the 1937 axle and spindles and the truck parts for comparison, and brake parts, too. Write up the results and publish in ASC Review. Do I see any volunteers who live close to South Bend?

[drrotor]

Ok I just went out and measured my ‘37 NOS king pins… they are the same diameter: .8025. So that’s good news! And the length is roughly 5-1/2” long. If I’m understanding this all correctly, they appear interchangeable with the early’50’s ones… so I’m also guessing the early ‘50’s truck spindles might just fit. Now I just need a pair of 2R-5 spindles to test fit. John?

Edited December 24, 2021 by drrotor (see edit history)

[drrotor]

I called Jim Turner to ask him about this swap. He happened to have a 2R-5 front axle handy, and measured the height of the casting at the king pin. He says it’s approximately 2.84”. So now I just have to tear apart my C.E. Axle and measure it to compare.

[Gary_Ash]

I Googled the knuckle part numbers.  The 677604 part seems to be available at Stephen Allen’s mystudebaker.com.  The left side 677605 is listed at kgworks.ca, just carefully scroll down the page.

[DynoDon]

I used the same process as SMB, but used 72 Chevy PU rotors/caliipers that have the 5x5 bolt pattern - and clear artillary wheels.  I thought is was important to mount the adapter plate on the INSIDE of the spindle flange (to keep the spindle bearings inboard and fully supported, and reduce the bending stress on the spindle). I used part of the casting from the '72 chevy that holds the caliper, so the caliper would be held properly, and bolted it to the adapter plate.

[DynoDon]

Here is the rest of the assembly.

[DynoDon]

This was on a early '39 Coupe Express, so uses the '38 chassis.

[drrotor]

Don-  Did the Chevy wheel bearings fit the Stude spindle? Excellent pictures, by the way… but I’m not clear on what “casting “ you cut or ground to fit… also wondering if your solution would work here, seeing as how I’m working with a beam axle which has a very different spindle.

[John DePrey]

20 hours ago, drrotor said:

Ok I just went out and measured my ‘37 NOS king pins… they are the same diameter: .8025. So that’s good news! And the length is roughly 5-1/2” long. If I’m understanding this all correctly, they appear interchangeable with the early’50’s ones… so I’m also guessing the early ‘50’s truck spindles might just fit. Now I just need a pair of 2R-5 spindles to test fit. John?

my spare axle is under my parts Champ holding it up. As an aside, did you know that the Champ front axle is ~3" wider than a 59 front axle? I swapped em because the 59 kingpins are loose in the beam axle and the Champ kingpins were tight, looks like they were redone. Then the reach rod was too long... damn. Discovered it after it was all installed including Turner discs. I put the Champ reach rod in for now but I suspect I will need to swap some stuff back. 

[DynoDon]

The Chevy bearings did not fit the Stude spindle, so I went to the Timken web site and picked out a bearing with an ID that fit the spindle and OD that fit the rotor and a length that matched closely to the Chevy and Stude bearings. The casting that I cut up was the Chevy spindle support as well as the caliper support. As you can see there was some machine work involved. The chevy spindle is pressed into the casting, so I made a saw cut to release it from the casting, and then started removing other material that attached to the tie rod end, ball joints and turning stop.

     You could do the same sort of thing with what ever disc brake you had assess to, I just happened to have the '72 Chevy PU parts handy.

Don