BCA Position on Modified Cars?

[Buicksplus]

The BCA President asked for responses to several questions in the recent Bugle. One was should there be a class for modified cars and should they be judged at National meets?

My comments: absolutely not! I love modified cars and many of my friends have them, but in my view they should not be given much of a position in any marque club. The purpose of the club is to preserve and celebrate the marque and its history, and I do not understand how modified cars do this or how they can be judged via any sort of point system unless it is entirely different than that used by restored or original cars.

I really have no problem with BCA members bringing a modified car to a meet, any more than I would object to them bringing a modern car, motorcycle or motorhome. I would always welcome and enjoy their company, this is after all a social organization. But believe me, creating special classes or judging systems for modifieds is a mistake: it will be difficult to administer and because of the popularity of street rods, it may not be long before the class overwhelms the club with participants. There is no need for this, the rod folks have many venues to display and celebrate their wonderful craft. They just should not be elevated to the same level as original and restored cars at BCA meets.

My two cents, I'm sure many of you will have an opinion on this!

Bill

Albuquerque, NM

[SBRMD]

Bill, with all due respect, and from an owner of three classic and unmodified Buicks:

Gee whiz, that's a snobbish attitude! I don't have a modified Buick - yet - but still, I feel compelled to make a few observations on your post:

1. If a Buick is modified, does that mean, in your opinion, it is no longer a Buick, and therefore unworthy of your recognition as a Buick? Motorcycles and motorhomes are not Buicks, and certainly no one would be inclined to enter them in a Buick show, not to mention contemplate a new class for them. To suggest otherwise, on it's face, would be absurd, and for that reason I feel that your comparison is demeaning as well as condescending to those in this club who have an interest in modified Buicks, whatever their stripe.

2. Buick "hot rods" are really exceedingly rare. Go to any show that caters to the modified crowd, and you will be hard-pressed to find more than a handful of Buicks. Moreover, in a relative sense they are not given much attention or respect, floating as they do amidst a sea of Chevys and Fords. Buick rodders do not have a satisfactory venue to display their craft.

3. Because of the relatively miniscule cadre of Buick rodders, your assertion that they will somehow overtake the rest of the club is, face it, histrionic and laughable.

4. As you point out, the purpose of the BCA is to "preserve and celebrate" the marque. I agree. However, you'll have to make a case for how a Buick rod, especially one that may be constructed of predominantly Buick components, doesn't celebrate the marque. Further, many rodded cars are those that would otherwise moulder away in a junkyard, lost to anyone's enjoyment. How, then, is rodding such a car not a form of preservation?

5. Who says that a modified class would have to be judged on the same basis, eg. the 400 point system, as the rest of the show? Do not some shows already have a choice of "points" or "popular" judging? Certainly a separate set of guideline for a modified class would be in order; it would be a literally a conflict in terms as well as a conflict in spirit to judge them on the 400 point system, which is clearly dedicated to factory originality. Such a separate set would be easy to compose and administer. Further, other marque clubs give awards in modified classes, and people don't seem to have trouble casting their votes in such venues.

6. Exclusivity frankly hurts everyone. Granted, this is a Buick club and therefore exclusive by definition; no one would suggest a class in our shows for Fords! However, for one to declare their "Buickness" to be better than someone else's is discrimination, even, dare I say, bigotry! Such an attitude has the capacity to keep this club small, old and poor, while making enemies of, and driving away those who, in your eyes, and in your words "should not be elevated to the same level".

And that's my two cents.....well, maybe six cents.

Best regards,

Steve Robin

BCA #33891

Golden Valley, MN

[billbuickgs]

Bill,

I must agree with Steve on this point. I have owned over 100 buicks since 1960 and most have been stock engines and bodies. Over the years I have owned modified Buicks, all with buick engines and custom work to the bodies.

We have 2 Reatta convs stock,98 regal GS stock,70 GSX yellow 4 spd STAGE 2 Iron head motor,ETC ETC ETC. The one Buick that I have just as much fun with is my 68 Buick SPORTWAGON.It was our tow car for years, infact the first year I towed my GSX to the GS NATIONALS in Kentucky, just as many people looked at the wagon as they did my rare GSX!

My point is my wagon looks stock except under the hood lives a monster, a 464 70 buick engine with alum STAGE 2 heads and many other goodies. ON the out side, a give away is a 2 1/2" cowl induction hood with STAGE 2 emblems and on the tailgate, it says it all "SPORTWAGON FROM HELL". MY wagon is a driver but it also has run the 1/4 mile in the 10.40's @ 128 mph. I have put as much blood tears etc in this wagon as anyone else has in their stock Buick. There is a place in the Buick for modifieds. I hope that others feel the same.

I will bring my GSX To FLINT this year and place it along side my son's highly modified white 70 GSX clone ( its a real GS) because we build our BUICKs to KICK AS#

Bill LAGNA BCA 3030 GSCA 654 BPG 1215 ROA 2865 REATTA DIV 202

MY 2 CENTS !

[The Old Guy]

The modified question has come up before. One thing that has been pointed out is that the BCA is getting older, and we need younger people in out club. If you have looked closely at some of the modifieds that have been shown at the national meets, you will find some real quality workmanship, and some beautiful cars. The BCA has maintained that thay must be Buick bodied, and that makes for a very exclusive group. The previous poster also pointed this out. Judging ,if it is necessary, could be just the opposite of our 400 point system . Every modification made would give the car points, and the Buick with the highest points wins.

We have a performance division within our ranks that have Buicks modified to go fast, and they are of show quality and would have nowhere to present their cars if it were not for the modified class. This class abounds in younger people, and they can use their talent later to do a quality restoration.

I became a member of the BCA in 1969 because my boys were old enough to use my race car, and that worried me. I have had some decent Buicks through the years and have had the good fortune to have two of my Buicks at The Meadowbrook Concurs'd'elgance ( one was not invited until after I sold it )

Now my children are grown ,but I am not , and I have two modified Buicks, a 72 GS 455 that I drag race, and a 37 Buick coupe that is all late model underneath. It also has a 455, and I still enjoy all the facets of the automobile hobby

[NTX5467]

Although I've been accused of being a "purist", I will concur that modified Buicks DO have a place at ANY BCA event, just as I believe that ANY BUICK produced (including late models) should be welcomed with open arms at ANY BCA or BCA chapter event. They are just as much a part of the Buick family as a completely correct or older Buick. Some of the best looking modified cars I've seen have been Buicks.

I concur that a different judging scheme would be needed for any modified vehicle class, but it could mimick the current point deduction system already in use. It might also be advisable to not use the "point range" award system for this class also, having 1st, 2nd, or 3rd place awards instead. I might also go so far as to propose that the modified class should also be included as candidates for Best of Show too, but I know others might disagree with that, or have a Best of Show "400 Point" and Best of Show "Modified".

I rather doubt the modified class would be a large one, but it can also serve to attract the general public (i.e., potential members) who might not care if a 1960s Electra has whitewalls of the correct width on it (much less radial tires). It can also show others that you don't have to have a Ford or Chevy to have a really neat modified car. The additional rule that it needs to be Buick Powered be in place or award extra points for that.

Yes, there are many street rod clubs in existence, even a Buick Street Rod Club if I recall correctly, just as there are several local and national street rod club sanctioning organizations. As mentioned and as I have also observed, they are full of Fords and Chevies, usually with Chevy engines. Nothing wrong with that, if that's what you want, but to take the time to do a Buick or Mopar (for example) street rod in completely "manufacturer's family" execution is definitely worth rewarding.

The BCA and its members have done a great job of focusing on "assembly line correct" vehicles with the orientation of preserving them for future generations and such, but for the club to grow and expand there also needs to be a "widened horizon" orientation to admit that more modern Buicks and modified Buicks are worthy of the same preservation efforts.

Last time I looked, I didn't find the word "antique" anywhere in the BCA's Mission Statement yet it seems many members put it there themselves by their actions and orientations. Nothing wrong with that, but such actions also send signals to younger Buick enthusiasts (yes, there are teenagers who have websites to showcase their fwd LeSabres in the Buick Only Webring, for example, not to mention their late model fwd Regal GS cars) that they need to look elsewhere, which many do. I don't perceive that we need to be alienating these people up front as they CAN be the future Buick enthusiasts that keep this organization alive.

I feel that it should be one of the BCA long term goals to make the BCA an "all encompassing" Buick enthusiast organization for ALL Buick enthusiasts where everybody is really welcome at BCA events. Such an orientation works dang well in the Mopar end of the hobby (where you can see grandparents, parents, and grandchildren all enjoying the cars of their past and present youth at the Mopar Nationals each year) and it can work in the Buick end of things also. I suspect similar things can be observed at some Ford and other GM enthusiast events also, but haven't seen it to the degree as I have at the Mopar Nationals.

Yep, Buicks have traditionally been known as an "old man's car" in the past, due to the placement of the Buick carline in the higher end of the general scheme of things by Billy Durant, but there have been "young person" Buicks too and will continue to be in the future.

I'm not advocating that we abandon any of the 400 point orientations, just that we expand things so that we have a better marketability factor to Buick enthusiasts who are not currently members or those who didn't realize they could be a Buick enthusiast. If that means allowing some modified Buicks in the show field of a BCA event, then let's do it. If that means easing or decreasing the 12 year rule, then let's do it (but that's a whole 'nuther subject).

The current Archival Class and proposed activation of the Driver's Class are also ways to expand the membership and show participation at BCA events, but they are still seemingly in their infancy and not fully appreciated. Adding the Modified judged class would send the signals that the BCA is not specifically an "antique" car club, but a car club for ALL BUICKS.

These are some of my own orientations and I respect those of others. Hopefully, we can find a viable middle ground on this an other issues pertaining to the future of the BCA.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Buicksplus]

Friends:

I seem to have touched a nerve here.

I did not assume in my post that modified cars meant modified using Buick or mostly Buick components, though I suppose the BCA does include that restriction in today's definition. I know all the modified cars I have seen featured in the Bugle have Buick engines.

I agree that there are relatively few modified cars using Buick bodies and engines, but there are many more using Buick bodies with small block Chevys. Do you think such Chevrolet powered cars should have a niche in the BCA? Is a Chevrolet (or Ford, Cadillac or whatever) powered Buick still a Buick? Can you justify excluding modifications like this while including heavily modified Buick powered machines?

I think a club needs to do whatever is needed to keep younger folks on board and I do not favor banning much of anyone from showing up at our meets. The question is whether we should create special classes for these cars and encourage them to come to our meets. I have seen Buick pickup conversions from the 20's and many modified cars at Buick meets in the past. They are interesting cars and many have fabulous workmanship and great looks. I suppose an advantage to classifying and judging these modified cars is that because the options of banning them, ignoring them or trying to compare them with original or restored Buicks at the same meet are not good either. The potential downside, though, is the domination of the meet with rods, and that is my concern. Perhaps this won't be a problem, particularly with a Buick component restriction...

Bill

Albuquerque, NM

[rocketraider]

Olds Club handles this issue with a judging restriction- "If a non-Olds engine is installed it must be a factory installation". That tends to keep the Chevy-powered street machines at bay, though the post-70s cars often had them factory installed. Most of us can fathom no reason to install one in the first place! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Dave@Moon]

While I favor almost any modification to a car in the interest of saftey (see any thread that mentions radial tires to see where that'll get ya'), my interests run almost exclusively with authenticly restored cars. Having said that, however....

It's apparent that we a entering an era now where cars of the age where collectivity normally began are now being ignored. There is no reason to believe that they will not be further ignored in the future. This is where the necessity for recognition for modified cars arises.

The cars of 1980 and later became increasingly complex, and their sub-components became increasingly specialized and unique to individual models. Compare any Buick parts catalog prior to 1980 to the massive sets of catalogs necessary by 1990, and the issue becomes clear.

It has become impossible to accurately restore cars between 20 and 25 years of age. And the future is even bleaker.

Can you even imagine the assemblage of componentry necessary to construct a 400 point Reatta out of a naked shell? Do you think you could do it with certainty that all the component codes and date codes were 100% accurate? Who will be reproducing the 150+ decals/lables/tags/etc. that will be needed, and will you be sure they're correct for your Reatta's year <span style="font-style: italic">and</span> month of manufacture?

Now, would you want to do all that for Somerset?

So OK, we're limited to preserved Archival Class cars for those years. So what?

So, if they're driven, all of the above headaches apply for every given repair these less than reliable examples of our beloved marque will need. Touring in your 1983 Skyhawk could very well cost you a part that is simply unobtainable in anything like it's original form. Should you happen to have a 400 point Skyhawk, the only way to keep it such forever would be to permenantly trailer the car exclusively. There'd be no way of reliably returning it to that condition after one or more unobtainable componenets wear and/or fail.

Does anyone see that happening for a Skyhawk? Skylark? Century? Even a Regal, LeSabre or Electra from that era doesn't seem to be the kind of car appropriate to permenant trailer queen status.

So therefore, modified cars are almost certainly inevitable. Having said that, however.....

[Dave@Moon]

The AACA is currently trying to address this problem by creating a non-judged "Driver's Class" and the "Hot Rod" class currently limited to modifications made before 1949, although that'll likely change sooner of later. While the Driver's Class has been a rather benign addition, there is a lot of controversy ( ) regarding the Hot Rod class (Class 37). This is why.

One of the peculiarities of today's car market is that a great many cars are in a stage where they're worth more financially in a modified "street rod" state than they are as authentic restorations. These cars are largely, but not exclusively, the 1930-1950 coupes and convertibles, as well as most pickup trucks and (watch this one) <span style="font-style: italic">many later model luxury cars!</span> Watch the prices for Rivieras, Electras and Wildcats offered for sale. It can be very common these days for the chopped, crate-motored, monochromed version to be more desirable (and therefore more valuable) than the stock car. As a result it has become <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">VERY</span></span> common to find and site examples of completed award winning restorations being put to the acetylene for the sake of today's hot rod market. (It is simply cheaper to do it that way than to start with the proverbial rusted out hulk most of us envision as the source material of choice for hot-rodders.)

By admitting "modified cars" willy-nilly with no thought out definitions of what is and isn't acceptable, the club could find itself bestowing it's blessing on actions and creations that I'm sure most members would find revulsive.

Therefore I beg upon the Board and any members called upon to define this category to be <span style="font-style: italic">extremely</span> careful as to the definitions given and the terms used. The Buick you save could be your own.

[Guest]

I don't think we can afford to turn our back on anyone. Having too many people trying to show their cars at our events would be a good thing.

I would judge any car that had a buick part on it. I'd award extra points for a Buick Body, and still more points for a Buick drivetrain. If someone wants to enter a motorcycle with a buick engine I'd love to see it. Bring on the variety.

I have faith that a judging system can be created that will greatly favor cars that have that essential "Buickness".

Remember, if any of the problems mentioned arise we can adjust the rules to cope.

The sooner we start the sooner we will get it right.

[NTX5467]

Dave, the deal with using "good" cars for hot rods or race cars has been going on for decades. Everyone wants a good, straight body and chassis to deal with, it seems, even though they immediately start cutting and hacking on it. In retrospect, there have been many cars ripe for a great restoration or "saving" that were made into race cars--not to mention the demolition derby cars.

Not to mention the number of steel-bodied 1930s Fords that were cut up for street rods (street rod=prior to 1949; street machine=1949 and newer) over the years. I saw a chopped top street rod guy with a t-shirt which read "Anyone can restore a car, but it takes a real man to chop one" (or something to that effect). Some neat creations, for sure, but some solid original cars were lost in the process of creating that niche of automotive history.

Considering this is a Buick oriented organization, I would concur that any modified vehicle entered in a BCA or BCA chapter event should have a Buick motor/drivetrain unless another GM motor was factory installed when new. No real change from what we have now in that respect.

At the present time, it seems we have the 400 point and Archival classes for correct/original vehicles. The proposed activation of the Driver's Class would then kick in for the not exactly correct, but "reasonable facsimilie" preservations where use takes precedence over correctness. To round things out the modified vehicle class would, it seems, fit right in. Even with the current 12 year rule, modern vehicles will continue to expand the show class ranks of judged vehicles. So, conceivably, there would be a Buick class for most any Buick enthusiast in the BCA to display their vehicle.

It might be that the details aren't fully developed for a year or so, but this is a start.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Dave, the deal with using "good" cars for hot rods or race cars has been going on for decades. Everyone wants a good, straight body and chassis to deal with, it seems, even though they immediately start cutting and hacking on it. In retrospect, there have been many cars ripe for a great restoration or "saving" that were made into race cars--not to mention the demolition derby cars.

</div></div>

I'm not talking about <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">restorable</span></span> cars being hot rodded, I'm talking about <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">restored</span></span> cars being hot rodded!!!! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

You can pick up almost any hot rod magazine and peruse the ad section and find a number of cars that were sitting on the Hershey show field (or some similar venue) this year or only a few years ago. It's a simple equasion: buy a stock '34 Buick or '65 Riv for $15K, add $5K + acetlyene, make $25K street rod. I can count at least a half dozen street rods I saw at shows this year that could <span style="font-style: italic">only</span> have been made from a complete, restored original car.

One of them was a '34 Lincoln KB sedan, no less! At least it was the only one w/o a sbc. It had a 460 truck motor!

[NTX5467]

Thanks for that clarification. I wasn't aware THAT was going on to quite that extent.

What I have seen happen is people who like the style and "presence" of the older vehicles do is "repower" them with modern drivetrains and even swap frames to something more modern to allow them to drive them without having to worry about finding parts should something break.

I have an acquaintance that had a late '40s (I think) Lincoln Continental coupe. It had the original V-12 and transmission when he got it. It was a restorable car as is, but he had other ideas. He had been down the road with those vintage flathead Fords and their durability issues on rod runs and such (he said it was why when you took one on a trip, you also took your tow vehicle and a trailer along, plus spare parts).

He sold the V-12 and trans to a guy via Hemmings, sold off other things to people who needed them, and then commenced getting it ready for a 500 CID Cadillac engine/trans from a donor vehicle. I certainly would have put a newer Lincoln V-8 in it myself, but he was determined to put a Cadillac in it . . . kind of like the old days when Cadillac V-8s were the thing to have in your hot rod. At least he had the good sense to put the parts he didn't need where they needed to be.

At the first Good Guys meet they had at Texas Motor Speedway, in the swap meet area was a beautiful silver '65 or so Riviera. Even had the Nailhead motor under the hood. The interior was not there and a "firewallectomy" had been performed and they'd started putting some flat metal in its place (and not a very slick job either) "just like the magazine cars". I just shook my head and walked away. Kind of like having a really slick car and then, when you raise the hood, a terriffic "WOW" factor. In my case, it was "wow, WHY??"

I concur that these restored vehicles really need good homes that will appreciate and care for them, but as long as there are people with enough money to purchase such a car and then change it, we can't really stop them. About all we can do is not watch as it happens. Kind of like some women, with all due respect, I've seen that will marry a man and then try to change his habits and orientations, knowing full well what she was marrying before she entered into that contract. Then, when the changes are done, we're supposed to be impressed.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[Dave@Moon]

Just a quick note for those who don't belong to the AACA. The "Hot Rod Class" that was proposed there has been rescinded. As far as I can tell, this is the entire press release that was issued today:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> AACA Board Rescinds Class 37 Historic Hot Rod Effort

Philadelphia, PA?February 6, 2003?The Antique Automobile Club of America Board today announced it would rescind its previous action to introduce a display only class that would have featured historic Hot Rods as part of their National Meets. The action was taken after the Judging Committee recommended to the Board that it be discontinued. It was felt that there was a significant amount of misunderstanding and confusion concerning this proposition and it was best for the club to not proceed with this Class.

<p>

The Antique Automobile Club of America is the largest club dedicated to the preservation of antique automobiles and their history in the world with over 62,000 members worldwide.

</div></div>