1970 Chevelle SS, Real or Clone!!

[padgett]

1970 GTOs had a different suspension from a LeMans, is that true of SSs also ?

 

Just found Bill Carroll's book and while a little hard to follow (goes by displacement then hp so a 409 comes after a 402) shows for a 70 402 a 330 hp LS-3, a 350 HP L-34, and a  375 HP L-78 (first two have Q-Jets, 375 has a Holley), and then a collection of 454s.

 

ps 400 SB had a 3.750 stroke, 402 BB had 3.760. Very different visually but sometimes hard to tell from the specs.

[chistech]

On 2/7/2020 at 10:41 AM, lump said:

You're very welcome, Robert. 

 

The only caution that I might mention now, would be to forewarn your friend of the potential disappointment which can sometimes happen when car show attendees may constantly ask your friend things like, "Is this a REAL SS, or a 'clone?'" And then, "Do you have a build sheet or Protecto-Plate?" For SOME folks this can grow tiresome, making them feel like they should explain their car's story again and again, and almost apologize if they cannot prove their muscle car is "real.". If you allow it to get to you, it can rob the enjoyment of going to car shows.

 

Sadly, too many self-appointed experts seem to think it is their sacred duty to walk around car shows, examine whichever makes/models they know a little bit about,  and then proceed to pronounce each feature or component of such vehicles as "right," or "incorrect," as though they know everything about every such model ever made. They often speak loudly enough that  nearby folks will hopefully be impressed with the "tremendous knowledge" that the self-appointed expert must apparently possess. These folks inevitably ask about documentation...even though they often don't even have a car of their own...or at least not one that is up and running and at the show that day! 

 

I would tell him to answer them, "Yeah, it's real, and yes, I have documentation." Then forget those people, and get back to enjoying your car.  

As many know here, over the course of the last 5 years, I researched and restored my 32’ Olds convertible roadster working with the three most knowledgeable people on the 32’ Olds, two being the NAOCs past and present 32’ technical advisors. What I was able to discover along with the present tech advisor is Olds had many running changes in various parts of the car over the course of the entire production year, and these changes often coincide approximately with their place in the production cycle (I know, that makes sense). Cars made in the first quarter show signs of some areas of improper and even crude fitting parts where as cars made in later quarters show a much better fit and finish. Often these later cars have entirely different pieces fitted, yet carry the same part number. I was able to determine my own car was built right around the end of the first quarter to the beginning of the second quarter of the model year’s production. So needless to say, some of my parts don’t fit quite as well or don’t have the added stiffeners that later cars got.

       This past Hershey, I and my Olds competed for our first time. The car was well received and even another wire wheeled roadster and owner were discovered! With all our current research, we have still only been able to locate three wood wheeled roadsters like my own and the owner of one of those other two introduced himself and made me aware “that he had one”. He continued looking over my car very closely while I walked over to a friend showing his 32’ Olds coupe in preservation. All of a sudden I hear in a very loud voice, “hey, the judges aren’t going to like this!” When I looked over, he was gesturing with his fingers, pointing at an area on my car. I politely walked up and asked him what he was referring to and he showed me, insinuating that I had made reproduction parts. I told him that they were originals and if he had done a lot of research, he would come to realize that those parts on the early production cars didn’t fit that well in the first place. Joe Pirrone, the current NAOC 32’ tech advisor was right there, walked up and told him the same thing, stating that both his car and my car are early production with the pieces in question, fitting about the same. He walked away a little disgruntled but too bad. There was no need for that and he way trying to make a scene thinking he could disparage my restoration. I don’t have time for people like that now, and won’t in the future. 

[Robert G. Smits]

FYI the 70 Chevelle SS was delivered to College Station today.  Thanks again to all who responded.  I think Matt's observation was the deciding factor in my friend's decision to purchase the car.  Bob Smits

[Guest Mark McAlpine]

23 hours ago, padgett said:

1970 GTOs had a different suspension from a LeMans, is that true of SSs also ?

 

Just found Bill Carroll's book and while a little hard to follow (goes by displacement then hp so a 409 comes after a 402) shows for a 70 402 a 330 hp LS-3, a 350 HP L-34, and a  375 HP L-78 (first two have Q-Jets, 375 has a Holley), and then a collection of 454s.

 

ps 400 SB had a 3.750 stroke, 402 BB had 3.760. Very different visually but sometimes hard to tell from the specs.

 

Yes, SS Chevelles had the F41 performance suspension package as standard equipment.

 

The LS-3 Turbo-Jet 400 with 330 hp was not available in SS Chevelles or El Caminos.  The base engine for SS Chevelles and El Caminos was the L34 396 (402 cid) with 350 hp.  In the first part of the production year the available optional engines were the L78 396 (402 cid) with 375 hp and the  the LS5 454 with 360 hp.  The L-78 was discontinued in the middle of the production year when the LS6 454 with 450 hp was introduced.

[padgett]

That makes sense (and why to be  accurate you need to know both the production date and the assembly plant since many interesting things were slipstreamed in during the model year. The Body Tag on gM cars is a great source of information. One in particular are the trim and pant codes if only used with certain options/models.)

 

Another is that for 1970 the F41 suspension on a GTO  (SS same ?) included a rear sway bar, Many cloners (particularly of Judges) got that part but missed the rest of the pieces unique to that RPO.

[mercer09]

JamesR...IF I remember correctly, in 1970 there was no designation on the title to ID the car as an SS model or not. 

 

I have an original title for a 1968 big block and it does designate big block SS.  All depended upon your dmv. Most wont state SS........

[dodgebrother]

This is a comment on the start of this subject of 1970 Chevelle real or clone.

I have owned 3 -1970 El Caminos.

1- 1970 El Camino SS 396 TH 400

2- 1970 El Camino SS 454 LS6 TH 400

3- 1970 El Camino SS 454 LS6 M22

 

All 3 of these are numbers matching and documented by GM Canada historical services and the LS6 Registry. 

 

The only 1970 454 LS6 cars that can be verified as real and not clones are the ones that have a build sheet and are documented by GM Canada and have a 3rd party numbers match.

Also the 3rd party LS6 registry and Dale Mcintosh does his assessment and confirmation. 

Canadian Documented GM muscle cars are blue chip and a good investment.

 

Buying a 1970 Chevelle or 1970 El Camino SS 454 LS6 without that is just another clone or tribute car and should be priced based on that.

The same goes for any big block GM muscle car up to 1970.

 

If you are not worried about numbers or pedigree and the price is right and someone is not selling you a supposed numbers car then any 1970 Chevelle or El Camino is just nice to look at and a lot of fun to drive.

But if you are looking at buying a numbers matching real 1970 Chevelle SS or El Camino SS 454 LS6 car beware as there are some very good cloners out there.

 

These photos are of my LS6 cars.

[Guest Mark McAlpine]

On 5/6/2020 at 1:45 PM, dodgebrother said:

This is a comment on the start of this subject of 1970 Chevelle real or clone.

I have owned 3 -1970 El Caminos.

1- 1970 El Camino SS 396 TH 400

2- 1970 El Camino SS 454 LS6 TH 400

3- 1970 El Camino SS 454 LS6 M22

 

All 3 of these are numbers matching and documented by GM Canada historical services and the LS6 Registry. 

 

The only 1970 454 LS6 cars that can be verified as real and not clones are the ones that have a build sheet and are documented by GM Canada and have a 3rd party numbers match.

Also the 3rd party LS6 registry and Dale Mcintosh does his assessment and confirmation. 

Canadian Documented GM muscle cars are blue chip and a good investment.

 

"Buying a 1970 Chevelle or 1970 El Camino SS 454 LS6 without that is just another clone or tribute car and should be priced based on that.

The same goes for any big block GM muscle car up to 1970."

 

If you are not worried about numbers or pedigree and the price is right and someone is not selling you a supposed numbers car then any 1970 Chevelle or El Camino is just nice to look at and a lot of fun to drive.

But if you are looking at buying a numbers matching real 1970 Chevelle SS or El Camino SS 454 LS6 car beware as there are some very good cloners out there.

 

These photos are of my LS6 cars.

 

 

Hello Dodge Brother.  First, nice El Caminos!  I love the backdrop mural of the Spitfire.  Where was it taken?

 

Second, I agree with you--lack of documentation impacts the price of any muscle car being sold.  There's nothing necessarily wrong with a well-built clone/"replica"/"tribute" as long as it's presented as such and, if being sold, priced accordingly.  (I always love when you hear a car being sold at auction described as "a genuine LS-6 Chevelle, but no documentation."  If may be genuine, but if you don't have documentation to prove it, it's not going to draw the bids that a car with documentation will draw.  There are a lot more "genuine" LS-6s out there then were ever built.)  As you said, GM of Canada vehicles have rock solid documentation and their historical services can provide records even for the years that records were lost in the United States.  

[padgett]

Does the M22 whine a lot ?

[dodgebrother]

Thanks Mark..!

 

That particular photo was take at the Abbotsford International Airport on the wall of a bar that used to be called the Red Baron.

Unfortunately the new owners in their lack of wisdom or not having any sense of nostalgia painted the whole wall over one color.

I had used that as a backdrop for several cars over the years and it just added a great nostalgic touch.

 

I agree on all your comments as well.

If it is a clone it should be stated as that.

Otherwise I wouldn't trust any statements of Numbers matching and so on and specifically a GM muscle car.

GM Canada did a good job of documenting all GM cars coming from Detroit over the border muscle or plain Jane.

I have received information and history on cars and trucks going back to 1935.

The only other group that comes close to providing this type of factory info was the Chrysler Museum which now that service has stopped.

Hopefully George at GM Canada carries on and I think he has trained his protégé to grab the reins soon.

 

The only other entity I would trust to document an LS6 far would be Rick Nelson from www.musclecarrestorationanddesign.com

Rick is a real decent guy and an expert and honest as the day is long.

 

I am on the search for a CDN GM doc 70 SS LS6 coupe Cranberry Red Tan interior like the one in the original brochure........gotta keep the dream alive to keep the dreamer alive. 

 

Take care keep safe............

[dodgebrother]

Yes the M22 does have that infamous whine and just adds to the sound going through the gears off the line or just cruising the boulevard in second and giving it a bit of punch to watch that cowl induction flap go up an down.

[padgett]

Back in the day the joke was that the M22 "rockcrusher" couldn't really crush rocks, it just sounded like it was.

[dodgebrother]

True !