Good News about BENGAL :)

[EstateWagon79]

Yesterday on Motor Week, they showed the Bengal and said rumors are circulating that the car will hit production. Isn't this great news!<P>I know some people don't like this car for many reasons, (e.g. FWD, funky head lights) but I for one think it would be a great step for Buick into the younger crowd. With Tiger as the spokesperson, it seems like it would be a hit!<P>If built, the Bengal could literally turn the image of Buick from "grandma's car" to "high performance luxury" like it was back in the days of yore. With the support of a younger market, Buick may even build enough courage to develop some V8 RWD platforms like the Blackhawk.<P>For years, we have sat and sulked at the loss of two door Buick convertibles. Well here's our chance to cheer up and be happy once again. <P>Write to Buick and encourage them to build the Bengal. Keep your fingers crossed!

[Guest]

I like the Bengal. It is a very radical departure from the Buicks of today. But I really would like them to build a full-size RWD car and call it either Electra or Roadmaster.<P>------------------<BR> <A HREF="http://members.fortunecity.com/gmfan33/index.html" TARGET=_blank>The Classic Car Resource Page</A>

[Centurion]

I would be delighted to see the Bengal in production. And, if I can afford it, I will be eager to order mine. Just wish they would call it "Wildcat".

[Guest]

All I can say is 3.8.At least leave Buick its dignity by kepping a great piece of its heritage. There was a thread just recently about dropping other divisions motors into different division cars. Maybe to us it may matter because we know the history of the 3.8. But I guess the rest of America doesn't which I see as sad, considering how America used to be about their cars. I am only seventeen, but I share many of the views the rest of you do. I used to be all about chevy until I got my hands on buick. Now I would rather own a Buick no matter what my buddies say. This old persons car has shutdown plenty of the cars that supposedly appeal to the younger crowd. Mustangs, Camaros, and Firebirds will always turn heads, but Buicks make people think what is that car. I can also say my 77 Regal has gotten the approval of a corvette owner. Well I kinda got off of the subject, but like many of you have said RWD would be great, but I doubt it, and I guess we will have to live with the fact that a Buick motor will not reside in the engine compartment. One question I have would it really cost that much to update the 3.8, not like GM's money is being spent on anything worth while anyway (Aztek, and some relatively lame concept vehicles).

[Dave@Moon]

[Guest]

I don't think anyone would chose the Bengal over an Audi TT or a Boxster. They should build the blackhawk with a Northstar V8.<P>Tomsriv<BR>

[Dave@Moon]

Why not a Buick TT? What's wrong with the idea? <P>I was the first person on this foreum to call for Buick to build the Blackhawk. It would make a good showpiece for the current lineup of "traditional American cars". But....<P>Buick was once a well-respected near-luxury car with a (relatively) affordable price and a reputation for fine engineering and exceptional performance { <I> a Century used to designate how fast the car went, not how old the driver was! </I> }. That reputation was coopted many years ago by the German and Swedish competition, and now it needs to be retrieved from them <I> and </I> the Japanese players in that market. That is to say it has to be retrieved if Buick is going to be known as a "doctor's car" ever again. <P>Buicks heritage is to be respected and preserved. But trying to live on just that put Buick where it is today. You cannot believe how tenuous Buick's position in the market is as we speak. Fully half of Buick's new car customers in 2000 were too old to be Korean War Veterans! While that generation (WW2 veterans) is to be respected for all of their great accomplishments, the fact remains that 1000 American WW2 veterans passed on from this world every day in 2000. <P>Very, very soon there will be no market for "traditional American cars". <P>I think a Buick TT or CLK is an excellant start. Now when they begin to build an affordable, credible competator to the BMW 323i (alongside a standard, Lexus-type lineup of cars), then look out!

[EstateWagon79]

I agree with you Dave Moon. I think Buick needs to take the same direction as all other "luxury" manufacturers.<P>Here is what I think Buick should have.<P>1) Full size luxury sedan: Maybe a Park Ave or the La Crosse. Something to compete with the BMW 7 Series, Chrysler Concorde, etc.<BR>- RWD<BR>- V8 350hp<BR>- Dual Exhaust option<BR>- 4spd auto / 5spd manual<P>2) Mid size luxury sedan: Maybe a Century or a new name. To compete with BMW 5 Series, Benz E-class, Chrysler 300M, Audi A6.<BR>- RWD<BR>- V8 350hp, V6 250hp<BR>- Dual Exhaust option<BR>- 4spd auto / 5spd manual<P>3) Compact luxury sport sedan: Maybe an updated Regal. To compete with BMW 3 Series, Benz C-class, Audi S4.<BR>- RWD<BR>- V8 350hp<BR>- Factory Duals<BR>- 5spd only<P>4) Compact convertible: The Bengal. To compete with Z3, SLK, TT, etc.<BR>- RWD<BR>- V6 250hp<BR>- Factory Duals<BR>- 4spd auto / 5spd manual<P>5) Two seat American roadster: The Blackhawk. To compete in a class by itself. <BR>- RWD<BR>- V8 500hp<BR>- Duals<BR>- 4spd auto / 5spd manual<P>6) A true American classic convertible. Something along the lines of a 60s Electra 225. Big luxury car with all the power to go with it.<BR>- Specs matching the Bengal and Blackhawk.<P>With these five cars and many high performance options, Buick could easily clean house. Think of the possibilities! Along with these cars, Buick could return to racing Daytona with the Century or Regal. They could even run LeMans! <P>I know there is no way this would happen, but oh well. It's fun to dream.

[AK Buickman]

Buick Motor Division should integrate their once proud past with 21st century technology and styling by calling this machine "Wildcat"

[Guest]

EstateWagon79 hit the nail on the head -- the #1 thing I would like to see Buick do (and all of GM) is offer more manual transmissions.<P>I love manual. My friend is planning to get a 98-00 Regal GS. Great car, but automatic trans? Bleah, not for me. Yet what are my options if I want manual? BMW, Audi, VW, Saab, etc. No way. Lincoln LS? Very cool that it has manual, but only with the V6 (still cool though, first Lincoln manual trans since 1949!). The Bengal doesn't have a manual trans either if I'm not mistaken.<P>Carl<P>p.s. clutch-less "auto-manual" type transmissions don't count.

[Guest]

I like the Buick lineup as is. I have even come to accept front wheel drive and V6 powerplants. Just let the Bengal be an imagesetter like the Corvette is to Chevrolets.<P>------------------<BR> <A HREF="http://members.fortunecity.com/gmfan33/index.html" TARGET=_blank>The Classic Car Resource Page</A>

[Guest]

Besides, If I were buying a new Buick, I would want a traditional one like the LeSabre, not some high-end, high-price luxury cruiser. Anyway, Buick makes the only decent cars in America right now.

[Dave@Moon]

Who said that a solid, sophisticated line of near-luxury cars has to be more expensive? What's a Volvo V40 cost? What's a TT cost? What's an Audi A4 cost? What does a BMW 325i cost? <P>None of the cars listed there exceed the cost of a loaded Park Ave. (as I can recall off-hand, if they are then post the prices here). <P>And the sad part of that is that these cars all have huge transportation costs relative to a domestic product, <I> and believe it or not, </I> their labor costs are extraordinary compared to even U.S. union labor. How many U.A.W. workers get an immediate 5 weeks vacation in their first year on the job? That's standard practice for European workers.<P>With the volume, transportation and labor advantages that a domestic manufacturer enjoys, building <I> quality </I> cutting edge cars should be eminantly doable here. Oldsmobile tried and failed for that market because they dressed up standard G.M. chassis in sophisticated-looking packages. If somebody actually does start to build cars that are made to outlast their payment books in this country, and adds the elan and cache of what "Buick" used to mean, we won't have to worry about G.M. making it any more.<P>The Bengal would be a great first step. The Rendezvous fits in nicely with that package. An Aurora/Riviera type flagship car would be the next logical step. But if the people who buy them don't have the automotive experience of a lifetime, and remain envious of their neighbor with the Toyota who <I> doesn't even know when his dealer's service center is open, </I> then it will all be for naught just like Oldsmobile.<P>That said, things do indeed appear to be looking up!

[86 2dr.ltd]

I was wondering the same thing.I hope BMW's are faster than their web site,I gave up.They didnt post prices,wonder why?Anyhow opinions,opinions are opinions,O.K.even mine.I dont see BMWs on every corner,I dont see how they are a threat or any source of envy.The 3 series I just looked at had a very nice chrome BMW trad. grill.That was it other wise it was as ugly as most every other "Bubble car".Im very courious as to pricing,Ive always been under the assumption that they were 30,000 and climbing.Mercerdes are outrageous and I think that was Cadillacs department anyhow.I ain't a gonna to talk about Volvo again!<P>I dont think the people that bought Skylarks,LeSabres,and Centurys were concerned about how fast they could get from one stop light to the next.I dont know much but I'm sure those were the cars and people that made Buick their money.Not the people that bought the GS's,GSX's,GNX's and even my favorite the Riviera!These are specality cars for the few and I doubt they were the bread and butter,but more of a dessert.<P>I do believe that a standard option should be there but some of you that are saying days of old glory and other such stuff are not remembering that the auto was the American thing thats what our grandparents and parents wanted and thats what Caddys,Buicks,Oldsmobiles,Chryslers had, the American luxury cars,automatic transmissions.Please dont waste time telling me about the few models that had a stick. I wouldnt want just a stick,I'd like something I could do a good screaming heal-toe down shift slaming into a tight corner at sixty only to find my "best friend" the public servant on the next straight away looking at me with his jaw hangin'.I dont believe any U.S. car ever had proper peddle placement.This falls into the same catagory as the stop light maniac.Its not what sells cars.Its the way you feel when your walking through a parking lot towards your car and you like what your seeing.The way it feels when you drive your favorite stretch of road.All this can be quickly destroyed when the road leading to your repair shop becomes too familiar.Or when your dealer wants $100.00 for the cheapest electric window switch ever made.Or when your manufacturer stops making important parts-because why?Opps,Im back.Any how if all you can think about when driving your car is "Wish I had a BMW"then your on the wrong web-site!<P>The last thing we need in this world now or ever is three mile long back-ups on everyroad in the country every morning and at 4:00 of people all by<P> themselfs on their way to and from work in 350 H.P. gas guzzling V-8s.To blame an auto manufacturer for this is absurd.This is the way thing have to be or worse and anyhow that Buick V-6 is Buicks biggest engine success and our 3 litre LeSabre will walk away from our 350 Olds Delta and get 40% better milage.Dont get me wrong I like both equal but the Olds was then and the LeSabre was latter and what we have today is the way things are going to go.The name of the game is H.P per cu.in. not cu.in. for H.P.this is where the imports have got us and these magazine test results are whats hurting new car sales.<P>GM has some nice cars out there now and has had.Those of you that insult the Buicks those of us are driving that are made after 60', 73' or 85' or whatever that magic cut off date was I dont understand.Are we supposed to take it lyin' down, should I hunt down the first owner of my LeSabre and ask them why they didnt have it crushed before their payment book was empty,or perhaps with faith if they had bought a BMW I'd be driving one today myself and then I'd be on track.<P>If that Bengal costs as much as a Boxter they better not make it.It wont sell.I like the Blackhawk but how many would they sell.I'm not seeing Prowlers ever,at auto shows thats about it.These kind of cars are spunges that cost more to develop and produce than they return.However if a company spends all that money building a proto type they ought to get something back.Maybe they should make more realistic approaches and then produce instead of tease.But this is an automotive tradition,its just annoying when they cry bankruptcy after squandering money on such ventures.<P>I am really wondering how that mid-engine FWD feels and handles.I always wondered why they put the engine infront of the tires.Most old sports cars had the engine mounted at - to behind the front wheels so why did they have to put the FWD cars infront of the axel.Then they have a long nose overhang to get room for radiator,air cond. bumper.I guess you sacrafice occupancy room if you move the engine back.<P>What ever they build I hope it sells so I can get one when the trendy have moved on.

[Guest]

I doubt anyone here wants a BMW, end of story (although screw it, I'll take an M5 in a heartbeat). However you are wrong about one thing - BMWs are very common in certain areas of the country. I live in the Los Angeles area and I see more BMWs than Chevys. I am absolutely serious. Mercedes too. And it's not movie stars driving them -- people out here like to pay more on their car payments than on their rent!<P>Many people here just make the excellent point that there is absolutely no American alternative to a BMW 525 with a stick shift (for instance). Buick doesn't have to start churning out big V8's again. Put a supercharged V6 in a modern, sharp car with a new chassis and a stick shift.<P>And no U.S. car ever had good peddle placement? What are you talking about? Enlighten us with what car does meet your peddle requirements.<P>Anyway, mainly I would really like to see Buick (and American cars in general) simply get rid of their bland image. Ford is doing this a lot better than GM. They've got the Focus, new Thunderbird, Mustang, Cougar, and LS. GM hardly even has a sports car besides the Corvette. I hear the Pontiac/Camaro is going to be gone soon, and they haven't changed 'em since '93 anyway.<P>Carl

[Guest]

A Volvo V40 costs (Motor Trend 'as-tested' price) $28500, but be aware it's a: 4-spd auto, 2.0 I-4 turbo, FWD, with a 1/4 mile of 16.4. The Audi TT costs $34K but also is a 1.8 I-4 turbo FWD. It's 1/4 mile is 15.6, or the same as a new LeSabre. The 328Ci runs $39K with a 2.8 I-6, 5-spd auto, RWD, 1/4 in 15.3). Also, the 328Ci brakes 60-0 in 132', the LeSabre ($29K) does it in 131'. There's not much separating these cars statistically. Of course, there's more to a measure of car than merely the above stats. There are a world of PERCEIVED differences however, and perhaps that's the greatest factor dictating todays automotive landscape.

[86 2dr.ltd]

I figured they must be selling somewhere here as well as Europe.<P>Peddle placement- heal-toe is where all peddles are same height,same plane,not where you have to lift your foot to get brakes.This enables you to brake with heal and pop throttle with toe while downshifting, clutch with left foot.This takes the strain off clutch and engine by meshing RPMs with ground speed and gear.Dont laugh this is fun and it is the way it done on the track. I cant say for sure but I believe all old european sports cars were set up this way.Mine was.Perhaps all are this way now but U.S.stuff from the 60's,70's wasnt.

[86 2dr.ltd]

BP11,whats the size of those cars.Isnt that BMW more the size of the $19,000 - $23,000 Alero

[Guest]

I don't think people pay as much attention to size as years ago what with current cars in general getting closer and closer in size (no more Electra 225s!). <P>Yes, the 325 is- whlbs: 107"/ ovrall: 176"/ weight: 3197 lbs and the Olds Alero is 107/186/2997, but the Alero MSRP is over 10K less. (I don't know what Motor Trend's 325 was equipped with, but theirs stickered 11K OVER the base 325Ci MSRP.)<P>The LeSabre is 112/200/3567, but otherwise many of it's stats fall close to the BMW.

[Guest]

I find it ironic that while the current 'old' Americans that are dying off so rapidly that statistically they won't live longer enough to keep buying current Buicks, no mention is ever made of the fact that the 'older' American age group is always steadily enlarging and being supplimented. Are the up & coming AARPers somehow prevented from buying Buicks? Are there no people born in the 1940s and 1950s who want a Buick today? What will these people buy when/if there is no Buick of today? A Nissan Maxima? A Saab?! There is a lot more competition and choices today than 35 years ago, but that does not mean there is NO room for a traditional (current) Buick.

[Dave@Moon]

A. Sit in any of the cars listed above and you'll immediately "percieve" the "differences" as well. Sit in an equally well worn 10 year old version of any of those cars and the "differences" will be violently apparant.<P>B. When people age, they don't turn to jelly. They want and try to aquire pretty much what they wanted and tried to aquire in their youth. The 72 year old LeSabre buyer of 2000 was most likely the 32 year old LeSabre admirer or 1960. The 32 year old BMW admirer of 1985 simply isn't going to become an overnight fan of velvet riding, ill handling, over decorated land yachts. GM already knows this. If you ever wondered why Saturn was created, this is why (whether it was successful at this mission is debatable).<P>C. Manual transmissions do not sell in large numbers, but they <I> do </I> convey an image to the cars they're available on. A friend of mine was told by his dealer that he has the only manual transmission Volvo V70 in all of New Mexico. Even in NM, that's a lot of Volvo's. The point is, nobody sees you driving a Volvo down the street and thinks you can't handle a manual. How many people are impressed with your driving abilities when they see you puttering down the street in a new Century?<P>D. There is no American alternative to Mr. Goodwrench! If there was, noone would've ever bought a Honda. Today Honda builds what the '55 Chevy should've evolved into, BMW builds what the '54 Buick should've evolved into. <p>[This message has been edited by Dave@Moon (edited 02-15-2001).]

[NTX5467]

An Alero with a supercharged 3800??? Is this something new?? <P>If you want to see some neat GM cars and equipment packages, check out the GM Holden site. Then check out the GM Mideast site and see some of the same cars with Chevrolet Caprice badging.<P>With all of the exciting stuff "down under", it makes me wonder why we don't have some of that stuff up here!! Maybe we need some new people to mind the store at GM headquarters in Michigan?<P>There are certain market segments where a manual transmission would be beneficial to the GM lineup. This is also an area where GM has lagged behind with their "upscale" automatic-only orientation in some cases--as in the old days.<P>Those manuals can be neat until you think about the cost of replacing clutches, but the younger people in those markets are spending megabucks on the engines to get them to run faster anyway so a $500.00+ clutch job is chickenfeed by comparison.<P>Is it possible that the reason the imports are making such inroads is because of their allegedly better reliability and modified performance in certain market segments? It seems that they have much more exciting hardware outside of our borders than we are being allowed to have here. Ford and Chrysler have done some really neat things in the past decades. GM typically hasn't fully followed suit for "financial and political" reasons.<P>Financial in trying to keep the investors happy and not building profits and stock prices with product instead of accounting. Political in that a Pontiac car can't be faster than a Buick, or something to that effect as you move upward in the GM model hierarchy. Or an Oldsmobile running faster than a Cadillac, for example.<P>When GM started doing all of their "combination strategies" in the late 1970s, it took the element of competition away from the individual "divisions" which had previously been in place. If you stop competing with your siblings, the desire to surprise them with something really neat and powerful greatly diminishes. Granted, the divisions' enemies should not be their family members in the same manner as the other manufacturers, but when that element of competition vanished or greatly diminished, so did the power of GM to dominate the North American market with unique products which sold well. That was then and see where they are now?<P>Check out the Holden site and see what you think.<P>Enjoy!<BR>NTX5467

[EstateWagon79]

If you look at today's market for Buick, you will be sad. No one is buying them because GM has wrecked their image. People think of Buicks as big, slow boats that only senior citizens should drive. We all know that this is NOT true, and I think Buick NEEDS to do something to let everyone else know that as well.<P>I cannot overemphasize how important it is for Buick to build the Bengal. Regardless of its drivetrain, this car will open up people's eyes and make them realize how awesome Buicks really are. <P>Once Buick builds this car, they will begin to revive their luxury performance image. This car will definitely catapult sales and hopefully produce some Buick offspring in its wake.<P>Buick is heading in the right direction with TIger Woods and the Bengal. That is pure marketing genius. Build the car Buick. Make American car lovers once again proud to drive a domestic car. And while you're at it, steal sales away from Thunderbird and let Ford know who's really boss!

[Gene Brink]

Dave,<P>You certainly stir up things (and get under some of the regulars' skin) but I think you are pretty much right on. Regarding your last post (by letter)-<P>A) I suspect the folks that can not see the build quality differences that are generally present between American and most Japanese/European cars have not really taken a good look (rose colored glasses??). U.S. cars are improving in this area with the quality of the plastics, etc. getting better all the time (presently not bad, especially when one thinks back to say an '85 Honda Accord vs an '85 LeSabre vs the same comparison today). Even the "wood" in a lot of cars is looking better but I have to wonder why they insist on it when they could offer a number of textures that would look much better than "wood" that does not look (or feel) like wood.<P> Absolutely right. Most people bond with a car in their youth (sometimes they are lucky enough to own, otherwise they probably lust from a distance) and continue to own throughout their lifetime. Changes in what they own affect those who own cars that are not really practical (although fun?) - for example the two seater when young turns into the 4 door sedan when one is married with kids, etc... I have Buicks in my blood having ridden home from the hospital in one in 1947 (and owned 7 to date) but have owned a number of other cars as well (MG's [2], Chevy pick up, Cadillac [54 limo], Opel [2], Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Ford, Volvo [2]) but can tell you I am at the point where I want a good sized car that drives well, gives good performance and service and Buick is not the only car that delivers but I certainly do and will consider the marque. I suspect most people would be quite happy with the current generation of a number of U.S. makes and models IF SOME PEOPLE WOULD EVEN LOOK AT AN U.S. MAKE/MODEL.<P>C) This argument is as old as??? Frankly having had a number of manual shift cars while living in Los Angeles I have reached the opinion that there isn't any comparison. The automatic is a hands down winner! You are correct that most folks do not want to shift. Should a manual be offered? Hard to say and I do feel for manufacturers because then have to spend a lot of money certifying a car so a manual transmission just adds to those costs with very few sales. (Anybody know if the percentage of automatics remains substantial in sedans of any make? I'll bet they are way down from say 10 years ago.)<P>D) Don't get the Mr. Goodwrench comment. Can see the Chevy to Honda analogy except the Honda is too small. Not too certain of the Buick to BMW though. I like the 7 series but would think a big Mercedes (or Lexus even) would seem to be a better fit for Buick.<P>("remain envious of their neighbor with the Toyota who doesn't even know when his dealer's service center is open." Subtle. And if it were this way with U.S. cars the sales would be there!)<P>As for the cost/size comments one certainly does get more size for the dollar when buying U.S. And the on paper performance is quite decent for a number of U.S. cars - especially when compared to imports. Guess this brings us back to perception.<P>I've strayed a bit from the topic for this chain - the Bengal. I have seen the car and it is ho-hum for me. They would have to tone it down a bit for me (taller windshield so I would not have to pick bugs out of my teeth, etc.) making it a bit more practical. Would not have to spoil it - something like the Porsche Boxter maybe. Doubt it will ever make it into production.<P>Gene<BR>

[86 2dr.ltd]

I believe some peoples taste change alot with muturity.Also as ones income improves over the decades.<P>That BMW falls into the Aurora or could be Riviera price range and its a little ugly bubble.If cheap plastic interior pieces is going to save me ten grande do I have to think about this.How many Auroras or Park Avenues for one of them 5 or 7 series.Also for the price of that BMW I could buy a 97'Riv.,1st gen Aurora,and Reatta convertable and then I could spend all day picking apart the cheap interiors with a fine tooth comb.,butI wouldnt,I drive and be happy.<P>The Saturn is a couriosity to me,its a what for car.The new car company,a different kind of company?What?Could that money have been put to better use?Who did the clay mock ups on them things?or computer grafics?Whats up with those head lights?is that supposed to be appealing?One thing I can say is you can also tell when one of them is coming at ya!They really went to the moon with that one, they should have kept the money home instead they just brought back moon rocks!<P>I'm a styling junky, its how they look.Not that all the other things arnt important but its the way they make you feel when you see them.Most people will tell you this,its appeal.I believe that GM always led the way for domestic autos and pick-ups.I do believe they have fallen behind in this area. I wonder why? The Blackhawk is coming what some three years after the Prowler.now they are playing keep up with the Jones.Did anyone ever notice the Charger of the 70's had the tones of the Riv of the late 60's or the Cuda of 70 now in the style of what the Camero had been since 67?Dropping the flagship cars was bad but why were they droped were they not selling?That 95 Riv was a leader but production figures droped to nearly 1/4 by 98.<P>Thats the scary thing about the Bengal or what ever Buick does release next.What if it doesnt sell?Does anybody really know what it will take to get buyers? is this all just trends.Hows Olds going to sell car after announcing a shutdown.will the public see this as GM is faultering and never even give them(any GM cars) a look.I guess I live in a part of the country where GM's,FoMoCo,and Mopars are everywhere and I dont see the problems Im reading about here.<P>Those that say if you cant beat them join them are way off.You cant be accepted by those that found your weakness.They laugh when you not looking. The Japs. and Germans are getting a kick out of this.Its no wonder Americans are disrespected around the globe.We'd sell our Grandparents if it would make a buck.Companys buy other companys to destroy them,to eliminate the competition,not to improve them. Corporate America is the problem.Global economy my butt!What is there of ours on those foreign shores?Raw products?

[Guest]

I don't see the 30-something admirer of a particular car still wanting to buy a 2001 same make/model 40 years later- the ONLY thing that would be the same would be the name. Products (that evolve over time) almost never resonate in that manner. The number of people that this is true for is infinitesimal. How many people do you know who've bought the same make exclusively for 30-40 years? There are MANY more times the number of people who admired a particular vehicle in their youth and still admire that same year/make/model decades later, not the current incarnation. (That would be US- the hobbyists/enthusiasts.)<P>Gene hit the nail on the head: "I suspect most people would be quite happy with the current generation of a number of U.S. makes and models IF SOME PEOPLE WOULD EVEN LOOK AT AN U.S. MAKE/MODEL." This is why the sentiment of 'velvet riding, ill handling, over decorated land yachts' (which I think was coined regarding the 58 Buicks) is still expressed so often. The automobile press also largely ignores US makes. Read the 2000 COTY testing: the Aurora was mentioned in about 3 sentences of 12-some PAGES of text. They looked- but they didn't look.

[Guest]

I agree with you guys on the stick shift issue. I recently went to the race track and I saw a new 2-door Pontiac Grand Prix running in the high 14's I went to GMbuypower and checked it out, the Grand Prix and the Alero can be had with the supercharged 3.8, BUT you can't get a stick shift with the supercharger. I think that if a Buick version was offered along with a stick shift we would have an excellent new buick that would compete with the Civic market. These kids that drive the Civics equate macho with driving a stick-shift, regardless of the engine. They want fast, but they won't give up a stick to get it. <P>Tomsriv<BR>71 Riv<P>P.S. If the BMW was made in America and didn't have the snotty image I would love to have one.

[Dave@Moon]

The over-decorated, ill-handling, etc. characteriztion lives on because (in today's relative terms) that's exactly what Buick delivers. Most Mercedes and Lexus cars look just plain dowdy next to a new Century, let alone a Park Ave. But, which one would you like your daughter to be seen going to the prom in? <P>As for the ill-handling part, I know 2 people with car rental contracts with a specific rider that states "NO BUICKS". Both drive 1996 Impala SS's. Every writeup of a new Buick you'll read, if they mention handling at all, will say that it handles _____ (fill in at whim), <I> given the compromises necessary for the Buick's soft ride. </I><P>As for not even "looking", the value of most "imported" cars isn't even apparant at first glance. In fact, having driven many miles on both recently and in the near past, let me tell you that these days there really isn't much difference before ownership year #3, unless you pick a real lemon (Ford Contour, Chevy S10, Neon, etc.). <P>When you <I> have </I> to send your wife and her ailing grandmother out on the Interstate in February to Denver in a car with 112K showing on the odometer and you think the AAA membership's expired and the cell phone's batteries need charged, then those "percieved" differences start to become very meaningful. If you're telling yourself now that your so self-sufficient that that wouldn't be a problem, the point is that with some choices available in the marketplace you don't <I> have </I> to be. And if you're telling yourself that you wouldn't allow yourself to be in that position (because your can afford to drive new cars for short terms), the point is that with some choices in the marketplace you don't <I> have </I> to be so fortunate in life.<P>If GM, Ford and Chrysler continue to be overlooked by some sections of the media and marketplace, it's because based on past performance <B> they earned it! </B> What I've been saying on this forum from day 1 and will continue to repeat is that the efforts put forth thus far to counteract this image have not yet met the efforts of firms like Toyota, BMW and others to maintain their positive "brand image". <P>Unless and until you see a GM brand consistantly topping the reliability and quality charts in Consumer Reports and other publications (like they regularly did through about 1970), this problem will continue. The only GM Division to even come close thus far was Saturn in the mid-90's, but even it has fallen recently due to the (apparantly) lower quality of the L-Series cars.<P>The Rendezvous and the Bengal (if it's built in some form, it's appearance is a little wild for me too) are steps which indicate GM wants to tap in to a younger, affluent market with Buick. Let us hope that they realize that in doing so they have to meet <I> and </I> outdo those competators who have bringing some very fine products to that end of the market for a long time now. Olds tried to tap into that market by dressing up the same old stuff in new (quite handsome) clothes. How'd that work out? <P>I do not envy the job of Buick's brand managers.

[86 2dr.ltd]

Boy,Dave you just dont quit!Youre right and your the only one that is.So we'll all just stop questioning it.<P>I must be in the twilight zone when Im thinking Im seeing all those H body cars with 150,000 to 250,000 miles on them as well as all the other GM bodys I'm less fimilar with.Its just a bad dream and when I wake up they'll all be gone,maybe never even existed.<P>Youve compared cars that were separated by $10,000 as equals.You continually bombard us with names that have no interest to most of us(see your survey).<P>Most have agreed that there are a few problems that need to be addressed for quality and performance,but would you stop telling us that they dont hold up.Its simply not true!All older cars or higher milage cars can let you down at anytime.Ive wore out the best and have replaced parts on all of them!<P>In the 60's and 70's cars with 90,000+ were on their death beds.Sludged up,rusted out,riped,cracked vinyl, rounded off cam lobes,low compression,oil usage, carb need rebuilding you name it everything was about to go.Today we are seeing 150,000 to 200,000 easy out of both foreign and domestic and the very well maintained are pushing 250,000 to 300,000.<BR>We've come a long way mister!<P>Ive got many good friends in the junk yard business as well as repair business and they all speak as highly of domestic as well as foreign.The people in repairs biggest complaint is they dont get to see any of the newer models when they are still nice.They dont see them till their getting pretty whipped.<P>The economy has been good so many have had no problem paying 5-10 grand more than nessesary and hey its a BMW or Volvo.I just noticed yesterday some people that live on a regularly traveled road have had one of those low line Mercedes for years, they obviously have a taste for a little extra in a car.Well they now have a brand new white Buick Century sitting where the Mercedes used to sit.This is a good thing.Lets hope they have the Century for years as well!This is the kind of thing I watch,not the writing in some consumer reports.Spin,Spin,Spin.Aurora buyers complained about trunk space?Hello, you bought the car because it caught your eye and now you complain because your groceries are tight.Thats like someone complaining about rear seat leg room in a Corvette.Resell value?There is no good resale value for a 3-4 yr. old car,everyone knows new car buyers pay the most $ per mile,then they want to cry because its worth 60% less then they paid. <P>Man you just keep going on unswayed no matter what like your the final authority on all matters and the rest of us are in the twilight zone.I believe nothing I hear or read. I only believe what I have seen, and has been proven in my presence or by my experience.

[Guest]

Please- I'd rather send my daughter-- if I had one 8( --to the prom in a Buick- a new Park Avenue Ultra (my '59 would be too fast). There is no advantage or insurance in choosing a MB or Lexus in the above scenario. Sorry, but "...those "percieved" differences..." are largely just that. If you read the enthusiast press, they'll often state as a 'pro' to owning a MB '...first, you get that 3-pointed star on the hood...' and the impressionable read this and go all starry-eyed and slack-jawed. It's OK; opinion entitlement goes without saying. <P>I likewise have spent much time in many 'sport sedans', both foreign & domestic, and I HAMMER on cars. The consumer who believes he's gotten $30,000 more car when he choses a midline MB over...say an Intrique has deluded himself. Any "differences" are meaningless when applied with dollars in mind.<P>The LeSabre has stellar reliability & top-shelf quality through most of the 90s. The current LeS has gotten excellent reviews (whenever infrequently tested). "...the efforts put forth thus far..." HAVE been successful in the end result for Buick: LeSabre is the best selling large car for 7 years running (whoops! if only Toyota's Avalon could expend some effort to succeed in this class! They have a long way to go to measure up!). The LeSabre is STILL overlooked by MOST sections of the media and marketplace. Ink jockeys would rather waste bytes on intangibles like the Bugatti & the Mosler MT900. You can hear them giggle as the write about a car even THEY'LL never drive.

[86 2dr.ltd]

I mean really!<P>Wasnt the LeSabre rated as one of the safest cars as well.You just dont see cars sitting broke down beside the road.Most cars I see behind tow trucks are either wrecked or on their way to the bone yard.<P>My daughter likes her "Oldsie" I dont see a BMW or Lexus in her future! She did like a few of the old Ferrari pictures I showed her tho, but I dont see one of them in her future either!If she ever shows up in a Bolbo or Snabb its all over!Taste is one of the commandments here.<P>Seems to me Buick has very few problems<P>Need better plastics?Or perhaps someone needs to explain that North America is the real wood capital of the world,why the fake wood grain in the US?Trees are US man!<P>Need a standard transmission option<P>Need two handling options:<BR>Standard: boat-float <BR>Option 1: improved cornering with luxury ride<BR>Option 2: extreme handling for back-roaders<P>One RWD model for those that demand it.How about a Buick persuit car(no I could never tolerate the "enemy" in a Buick)<P>And one huge request to GM powertrain to keep the Buick V-6 heritage alive and develop a SeriesIII 3800<P>Must have a special flagship car,got to be!I wont type the name again!<P>What would be wrong with Wildcat whats a Bengal anyhow sounds like something that lives in Ethopia to me.Thats not North America!<P>Lets not forget where we came from or where we've been either!

[Dave@Moon]

In a record good economy, GM has lost market share at a rate unseen since Henry wouldn't give up on the Model T. Anybody got a better theory? (p.s. "They're all dumb and I'm smart." don't cut it!)<P>