1963 Amp Gauge is tac'ing

[Brooklyn Beer]

What would cause a factory gauge to tac up and down with engine RPM?  My 63 dodge when at idle will show dead even center at idle but any RPM increase will tac it in the D direction.  Let off gas goes back to N.

[Matt Harwood]

Because as engine speed increases, so does generator output. Generators don't make much electricity at idle, hence the 0 reading. As you speed up, it makes more electricity and shows a higher rate of charge. Eventually, it will stay at 0 most of the time because the battery is fully charged. If it's showing a discharge as engine speed increases, you may have the wires on the back of the gauge reversed. Check the battery with a voltmeter and you should see voltage go up as engine speed increases as well. 

[Bloo]

Thats normal more or less. It should charge a little bit even on slow idle. Remanufactured alternators of the last few decades for Mopars usually have the wrong pulley for the application they were sold for, and that can contribute to the no charge at idle thing.

 

Another thing they did in the 80s and 90s was put 60 amp stators in nearly all of them, and it burns up the wiring at the bulkhead. Factory 60 amp charging systems had a separate harness for the charge wiring, and are generally seen on police packages, though I think you could order it on anything.

 

I agree with Matt Harwood that the ammeter is probably hooked up backwards (because it goes to "D"). Put a voltmeter on the battery and rev it up. Voltage should be up in the 13s or 14s.

Edited August 31, 2019 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Brooklyn Beer]

Just got this car and working the bugs out one piece at a time.  It is an alternator car.  When I mean tac'ing I mean it instantly pins it as acting as a tac and will stay that way when driving until you come to a stop.  The gauge is acting exactly as a tac.  I have a re-manufactured 55 amp going on this weekend.  Still waiting on the repair manual so nothing to go off for wiring to see if reversed at the alternator. If anyone could lend a hand there it would be appreciated.

[Brooklyn Beer]

New 55 amp alternator in and voltage regulator.  Now it only tac's to dead D on initial start up and then slides back some close to 1/4 charging the rest of the time.  The battery is dated 2 /18.  I will get the multimeter out and check out the voltage at the battery and the alternator.  The field terminal clip was extremely loose.  Put in new plugs and adjusted the idle up a hair and it has really smoothed out.  Will check the timing after I install the pertronix.  I know it screwed with the timing on my 49 Buick when I installed it.

 

But the amp gauge is still tac'ing some.

[certjeff1]

First off Chrysler did not ever make a 55 amp alternator. Standard without AC was 37 amp or 46 amp with AC for your application. They did not make a 60 amp until 1969. If you are still using your stock mechanical regulator with a mismatched alternator you will have problems. A mechanical regulator can only handle 2-3 amps of field current. Where a 60 amp is 4-6 and requires an electronic regulator. I know those numbers sound small but they mean a world of difference. Consumers have been asking for more amperage forever and suppliers do not always care about consequences as long as they are making money. They will just send it back to their supplier as defective.

 

All of that aside when you are checking your charging system with the issue you are having. With your voltmeter at either the battery or alternator reads steady while your dash ampmeter is going up with rpms and you have no electrical items running other then ignition you need to charge your battery. Voltage holding but amperage climbing tells me something needs power and the alternator is supplying it. And if you have no electrical items such as lights then the only thing that could be asking for power is the battery. If you want to keep your amperage from running high you need to charge the battery separately. Best way to determine if your battery is fully charged is to connect it to a charger along with your voltmeter. Using the lowest possible amperage setting start the charger while singing the happy birthday song. If your battery is fully charged to begin with your voltmeter will get to 14.5 before you finish the song. If it does not then it was not fully charged and should go until the voltmeter does read 14.5. If under the same conditions your voltage and amperage both climb excessively high with rpms you could be in a full field mode and I would check your field wire to make sure it is not melted to your power output wire or to any other wire that is powered. Or you have damaged your regulator by using it with a mismatched alternator.

[Bloo]

I hate to be "that guy", but 60 amp charging systems were certainly optional before 1969. I used to own a 1965 R9 (Police) Belvedere 1 with a factory 60 amp charging system. I have seen others. They use the same electromechanical regulators the normal cars use. The ammeter is labeled +60 and -60. A friend still owns this car, and if it weren't 50 miles away right now I would go get pictures and post them.

 

One BIG difference is the wiring through the firewall. It is a separate harness, and bigger wire, with it's own little molded grommet. the "normal" cars run the charging system current through the bulkhead connector. That is adequate for 32/35 (37?) amp systems, and just barely adequate for 42/45 (46?) amp systems. You really oughta take that bulkhead connector apart and look, and clean and or replace the terminals (if they are beyond cleaning). Take a good look at the molded on wiring terminals at the ammeter, too. Melty ones need attention.

 

I agree completely with certjeff1 that you do NOT want a bunch of mismatched crap on there. If you have the original alternator and regulator on there, keep them. These cars do not need charging system components all the time like some err... other brands. You can change the brushes without taking the alternator apart. On some models you don't even have to take the alternator off of the car. Bearings are cheap if you need them. The regulator sets up like an old generator regulator except there is only one relay. Use feeler gauges or drills to set the gaps and tighten/loosen the spring to set the voltage (see the shop manual). They also have 2 fuse wires inside the regulator to protect the system when things go horribly wrong. They can be replaced easily if need be (if you can solder).

 

I once ran a 66 fury up to absurd mileage. The original alternator failed at about 270k miles when a winding on the stator got a little loose, rubbed through to ground and blew the leads off some diodes. When the car got wrecked at about 375-380K, it still had the original voltage regulator (with one fuse wire changed).

 

By the 90s the cheapie rebuilders ran out of original stuff, and every alternator you got from the parts store had a 60 amp stator and a pulley for a 1970s A/C car no matter what you ordered. Replacement regulators were electronic and lasted 6 months if you were lucky. You could still get it done right at a real auto-electric shop, but hardly anyone did. I fixed a lot of burned up bulkhead connectors in those days.

 

P.S. if you turn your lights on with the engine off, the ammeter should swing towards "D". If it swings toward "C" your ammeter is hooked up backwards.

 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2019 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Brooklyn Beer]

Will charge the battery tonight as the more I test drive it after each upgrade (Plugs and wires today and some carb fiddling) The less it wants to go over to discharge.  I have a good digital charger in the shop that will tell me starting volts when i turn it on. The person I bought this from did not drive it much because "The brake lights stayed on do to a short and kept draining the battery".  I bet the battery never got a full charge before it got here.  I just changed the brake light switch and fixed that but still need to track down why I have turn signal and tail light on passenger side but no brake light. Drivers side is good.  waiting on manual to trace the correct wires. No mice damage on any wiring in the car I can find and the trunk is very clean..  I have changed out the voltage regulator for an electronic one as I will be going to pertronix. Have it in my 65 fury and 49 buick and not a problem one from either of them.   This is the alternator I installed.  The field connection on the old one was about to break off.    I have kept the old one but doubt it is the one that came on the car when new.

BBB Industries Alternator

 Click to Enlarge

 

(Read reviews)

 

Part Number: 14504-09193526

Notes: Remanufactured ALTERNATOR -- 2-Groove Pulley; 55 Amps

Condition: Remanufactured

 

Shipping Options:
Ground

 

 

This Part Fits:	Catalog: H
Vehicle Engine 1963 Dodge 880 5.9L V8  1963 Dodge 880 5.9L V8  1963 Dodge 880 6.3L V8  1963 Dodge 880 6.7L V8  1963 Dodge 880 6.8L V8

[Bloo]

Brakelight trouble is gonna be the turn signal switch. Wiggle the handle. It probably works part of the time.

[Brooklyn Beer]

Tossed the old girls battery on the charger after driving around the block and sure enough, it was showing 9.2 volts.  So have it on a slow trickle charge over night and we will see if it takes 12 or if a new battery is in order.  Tomorrow the pertronix and timing.

[certjeff1]

Sounds like battery condition stemming from the brake lights staying on is causing your alternator to produce high amounts of amperage to compensate and in turn your dash ammeter to register it with rpm change. I would definitely inspect the bulkhead connector too much amperage going through it will over time cause a meltdown. It would be a shame to go thru all this work and not at least inspect the connector. We see 6 to 8 Mopars a year with the bulkhead connector melted. Usually with the higher then stock alternator on them. People do not realize that for the ammeter to register every amp from the system has to go thru it, like a water meter, and to get to the ammeter all that amperage has to go thru the bulkhead connector as well. With it tacing towards the D and not the C I would agree it does not sound as if the ammeter is wired correctly.

Bloo you are correct 60 amp alternators were around but how many people special ordered the police car option to get the 60 amp alternator?  Many of the application books from the era do not even list it.

[Brooklyn Beer]

I am following the advice.  Battery had full charge this morning and before starting I just turned on the head lights.  It slide over to C so whomever had this has something going on in the back of the dash cluster.  When starting it still moves over to the D side. My manual is supposed to show up today so I can get a better idea of what I am looking at. The dash cluster is on the list to get pulled so i can check the voltage limiter back there and also the dash lights. I am thinking the limiter might just be OK because fuel gauge works but not the temp gauge. Since I am installing a mechanical temp gauge not worried about the bad sender. I will pull the bulkhead fitting and inspect. Does it melt on both sides?   Car might just be off the road for a couple days as I swap out the thermostat, install the new temp sender, replace the water pump (a little chatter) and get a new radiator in. The stupid AC compressor really is in the way of about every thing !

Edited September 1, 2019 by Brooklyn Beer
new (see edit history)

[Brooklyn Beer]

[Bloo]

50 minutes ago, Brooklyn Beer said:

Battery had full charge this morning and before starting I just turned on the head lights.  It slide over to C so whomever had this has something going on in the back of the dash cluster.

 

Yep, sounds like somebody had the cluster out and got it hooked up backwards.

 

52 minutes ago, Brooklyn Beer said:

The dash cluster is on the list to get pulled so i can check the voltage limiter back there and also the dash lights.

 

I would probably just replace the bulbs. Check your manual, there might be a couple of different bulbs (maybe a dim one for high beam and a flashing one for the e-brake, or something like that). Disconnect your battery when you pull the cluster, you have "battery hot" back there on the ammeter.

 

58 minutes ago, Brooklyn Beer said:

I am thinking the limiter might just be OK because fuel gauge works but not the temp gauge.

 

It feeds both. If one of them works and is accurate, the limiter is fine. If the gas and temp gauges want to read way high or peg when they shouldn't, the points inside the limiter are stuck.

 

1 hour ago, Brooklyn Beer said:

I will pull the bulkhead fitting and inspect. Does it melt on both sides?

 

It typically melts the whole thing and sometimes melts into adjoining wires. If it's not bad maybe you can just clean and tighten it. Sometimes back in the day, I would crimp and solder on new spades (NAPA used to be able to get the correct kind, they're kinda odd looking, and you will see and also learn to release them if you wind up changing that turn signal switch). Those same terminals are used all over Mopars for probably a couple of decades. Sometimes you can connect them manually if the connector is too destroyed to hold them in place anymore, but still has enough plastic to keep the connections separate. On the worst ones, I would put a piece of wire through the hole (well, holes, the circuit goes through the firewall twice) and solder and heatshrink it on both sides. Downside of that is you can't unplug it anymore. There are more restoration parts available now than then. I suspect you might even be able to buy new connector housings.

 

 

 

[Brooklyn Beer]

Whomever designed the one thermostat housing bolt that is under the neck should have their toenails yanked out with pliers dipped in salt...  But I got it and glad I did.  They had a 195 thermo in there which for TX is not a good idea.  In my under dash crawling getting the temp gauge probe through the firewall I found out someone had bypassed the blower motor switch partially. It still works for fan speeds but there is a toggle switch to turn it on. Heater/cooler control still works. OK, can live with that for a time. Just need to research how to get it on defroster.  The AC I am going to leave alone for a little while but the entire system is still intact and wired. Just that none of the buttons work. They don't push in and the one that did fell out !

 

I was happy to see not much gunk in the cooling system. No scale in the radiator or on the temp sender.  Nothing in the thermostat housing either. Just a little sludge on the thermostat itself that I wiped off with one finger. Going to pull water pump here in a little bit. Beer break.

 

I found some weird OLD under dash lights that came on with the headlights but just shined on the floor. Two bulbs each mounted to a metal holder. A pair of these that look connected to a factory clip.  They were screwed in on either side of the steering column to light your feet (?)  I wonder if these are the dash lights someone pulled out and never put back in.

[Brooklyn Beer]

Doing things a little old school this weekend. Out back under the shade tree. Nostalgia. 95 and a nice breeze makes it better then a 100 degree shop. Changed the thermostat. Pulled the belts and checked the bearing in the water pump. No wobble but really didn't want to spin freely so I pulled it and was pleasantly surprised to find it nice and clean.  I have a new one coming so will compare the two but the one that was on there is a Chrysler marked pump. 

[Brooklyn Beer]

[r1lark]

I love to work outside.on the old cars, reminds me of when I was a teenager.(a really long time ago 😀 ).

 

Good looking car, I love the larger '60s MoPars. Keep the reports coming.

[Brooklyn Beer]

Just a waiting on the water pump.  Actually I am waiting on the gasket and will toss the "new" pump on the shelf as I found out the little bit of "talking" was coming from the idler wheel next to the pump.  Since I am removing the belts off the AC compressor until I can find the time to get into those controls, I do not need the idler wheel to just go from fan to alternator. Keeping the AC system 100% intact but why put the wear on the clutch for now is my thinking. Maybe I will go out and do the plug wires after dinner. Will wait on the pertronix to see if that little miss at idle is a faulty wire.  Not keen on angle boots this close to the exhaust manifolds anyways.