Morbid Equine Flagellation--Hot Rods (again)

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I mean, yeah it stinks that great old cars are being cut up, but what do you propose can be done about it? </div></div>

Again, as I've said many times, since many of the cars that were littering the Hershey show field last week will not see daylight in public again for a long time there is a popular perception out there that many dfers are almost violently in denial of. That perception being that without electronic ignition, radials, fuel injection (or at least a four barrel), a modern steering rack, etc. etc. etc....a car is <span style="font-style: italic">not</span> streetable.

Even among our members there often appears an reliance on trailering that borders on the neurotic.

It's my opinion that many of the people out there cutting up restored cars believe that they're performing a service, ridding the world of prettyfied slow/ungainly/unsafe/obsolete hulks. They're wrong, of course, but they need the information to comprehend that. That's where we come in.

The AACA cannot force anyone to do anything. But it can aid in dispelling the notion that there's something wrong or inadequate with riding down the road behind six volt headlights. I rejoined the organization after it initiated the Drivers Participation class, which I think is the best first step out there to fight this perception.

Now if I were only touring in the Buick now instead of typing this!

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[color:"blue"] I actually typed that about 3 hours ago, but somehow couldn't get back in to the site until know (after a thorough file cleaning).

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Rodding has saved far more hopeless (1928-48) cars than the restorers have. </div></div>

Yes, over the last 30 years! Once again, I'm decrying a very recent phenomenon where NICE vehicles are being introduced to Mr. Acetylene. But thanks for once again implicitly revealing the continuing denial of the premise by defending a different argument.

By the way, I'd say that it's a good conservative estimate that there are 20 "antique" hot rods for every restored antique currently licensed. We'd be hip deep in them if they weren't being scrapped.

--Yes, I've seen hundreds scrapped. But then being the waste disposal monitoring business, I got to peek in a lot of places that most wouldn't like to see. You don't see them because they're worthless beyond their period of function.

There is no "junk hot rods" row at your local parts recycler, nothing would sell out of it. If they aren't torn down and rebuilt by the next owner (with the removed parts scrapped), they're usually stripped of anything usable and crushed immediately. Often it's difficult to find a next owner (or find usable parts) because hot rods are so personally tailored. Also how much are you willing to trust whatever's underneath all that lime green metal flake?

[The Old Guy]

I have a 40 Buick that I have driven over 90,000 miles,and it is a restored car. I took the liberty of changing the rear axle to a more road worthy gear, but that is the extent of the modifications unless you count the dual exhaust I installed to disturb the purists! I also have a 37 Buick coupe that has a 455 and all the latest toys, and I think they are both fun to drive. Hot Rods are a fact of life ,and whether you like them or not, they will be with us forever. This argument has been going on for as long as I can remember, and will never be resolved. The whole thing boils down to the fact that whoever owns the car can do as he pleases.

[Guest]

not to beat a dead horse over and over again with this subject. I have a '37 Ford Club Coupe. from what I have been learning are becoming very rare these days...I want to build a very reliable and fun car to drive(reliable as in long distance driver and with a already modified flathead) I dont want to be stranded in the middle of nowhere waiting on parts. availibility is a concern! I am also going to put a 8'' rear and a chassis engineering kit,disc brakes,and a engine swap...cars were built to drive and to enjoy..safely as well!

[Guest]

<span style="font-style: italic">Sorry, can't get my username to register!</span>

Two misstatements in this thread. According to SEMA data several years ago, about 60% of hot rod projects are never completed. Lost interest, screwed up, run out of maney, or my personal favorite, can't pass state inspections. See Hemmings and elsewhere for many of these at fire sale prices. The rest are scrapped. Also per SEMA, once the "baby boomers" (a.k.a. "me generation") are too old, in about 5 to 10 years, this hot rodding craze will wind down to pre 1980s levels where it used to be. Few of today's rodded cars will find a new buyer among the next-generation's market as most of them already think these hot rods are silly (often called "cartoon cars" by them). So all this devastation will be for naught!

[1937hd45]

It may be "devastation" to you but you'll never talk a sizable number of people out of this fine part of the "old car" hobby. On the bright side every year AACA accepts 10,000-50,000 new "antiques". To each his/her own, you can't dictate how someone else can use their own car.........Oh, do us a favor and let us know where these fire sales on 1928-40 Ford rod projects are.

[1937hd45]

Ya almost got me with that SEMA poll of 60% of rod projects not being finished.There are MANY restorations that are never finished. SEMA never took a poll of these projects. Personally I've lost track of all the projects, restorations & rod that I started and parted with over the years. I do know that every rod project was finished by the new owners, and has logged thousands of miles.

[Guest]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Also per SEMA, once the "baby boomers" (a.k.a. "me generation") are too old, in about 5 to 10 years, this hot rodding craze will wind down to pre 1980s levels where it used to be. </div></div>

Really? I am 31 years old, and A LOT of my friends that are around my age, younger AND older LOVE hot rods to the point of obsession. Now, by these stats, in 5 to 10 years we will all be around 40 to 45 years old, and I guarantee you that we will still love these old street rods as much or more as we do right now, and by then we will have even MORE money to spend on hot rods. These stats are VOODOO science, get in the real world. Let me tell you how it REALLY is in the REAL world: There is nothing more appealing than a '49 Merc chopped and done right, flashing down the road and breaking necks, something tells me that in 5 to 10 years this kind of car will still be going strong, while your stranded out in the middle of Arizona, broke as a convict after spending thousands on your big wad of original fluff, with your straight 6 engine and 6 volt charging system collecting dust because your parts STILL havent been located after the "5 to 10 years" these stats refer to. Get over it, rods are better in a lOT of cases, you know it and are just trying TOO hard to justify throwing your money away on these bone stock slowpokemobiles that either have to be trailered or driven in the emergency lane to the show.

[Guest]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> broke as a convict after spending thousands on your big wad of original fluff, with your straight 6 engine and 6 volt charging system collecting dust </div></div>

I think generally think their all crappy, so straight 6 is a good general term that I use for all your old steam engines, I thought I had better rephrase a little bit before you purist use this straight 6 comment against my argument to deflect from the real argument at hand, yet another tactic to justify your old hulks existence, let me rephrase: Your CRAPPY OLD ENGINE AND ELECTRICAL SYSTEM, not to mention your CRAPPY suspension and brakes. These old obsolete hulks that you people call "drive trains" are going to get you SMASHED if you try to drive them in REAL traffic in THIS CENTURY (2002 for those of you who forgot what year it was, sheesh, not to mention were running out of COAL to power these old anvils with!).

[rocketraider]

If you're so dead set against old original cars, why the hell are you even cruising an antique car DF?

I never knew there were any coal-burning cars built . I know that my big steam engines at work put out about 7500 horsepower, and that's the two small steam turbines. They'll turn 6500 all day long... <span style="font-weight: bold">HAY!</span> Maybe that'll be the next wave of the future in street rod engines! Small block Chivverlay look out!

I also got the best laugh of the day re the comment about "cartoon cars". Boy howdy- younguns in "Fast & the Furious" import street racers with gaudy paint jobs, aluminum wings and ridiculously sized wheels and tires, calling our stuff "cartoon cars". Every once in a while I have to unleash ye olde 400 horsepower front-wheel-drive big-block Oldsmobile on them (that prowls modern traffic at 75 mph), just to keep their FWD "power" in perspective.

Thea-athea-athea-th-th-That's All Folks!

[Guest]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I never knew there were any coal-burning cars built </div></div>

Ever heard of SARCASM RR? I guess not, and I guess in your view a street rodder who doesn't like foolhardy common original car restoring shouldn't be cruising this DF. Well, I guess some of the regular guys who post here should not be cruising this DF by your definition. Oh well, no wonder there are so many "anonymous" post. (insert roll eyes animated gif here)

[Guest]

Well, I guess I did come off a little harsh on the put-down of the original cars and their drive trains. I think there are some very nice original cars, but <span style="font-style: italic">personally</span>, I would not spend the dough to build one back to original. I just take it personal when someone attacks people for rodding to their own taste. I am just fond of rods, that's all. There are good people on both ends of the spectrum, bone stock to major hot rod, and some MAJOR nice cars in both catagories. To each his own because it's his own hard earned money he's spending. 'nough said.

[Dave@Moon]

Yup, I guess the problem is me. I'm just seeing boogey men.

[1937hd45]

I enjoy a bit of sarcasm every now and then, but there were COAL POWERED steamers early on in automotive development. Sylvester Roper of Roxbury, Massachusetts was one of the earliest. His 1865 coal powered steamer is in the Henry Ford Collection in Dearborn. The Stanley brothers were two of the worlds earliest hot rodders 127.66 MPH in 1906 is not bad for a two cylinder car.

[rocketraider]

Yes, Anonymous- you were beyond harsh which is why I came down on you like I did. I understand sarcasm well and even threw a little backatcha, until hd45 enlightened us both on the existence of coal-fired steam cars.

Anyway. I'm not anti-rod. I like them. I just don't believe in hacking up a good original or restored old car to make one, especially if it's being done to turn an obscene profit or if the owner has it built to please the generic street rod crowd instead of doing something original and interesting. Meaning <span style="font-weight: bold">NO</span> Chevy engine, <span style="font-weight: bold">NO</span> tweed interior and <span style="font-weight: bold">NO</span> billet. Those three items are so thoroughly cliched in the street rod world as to be nauseating.

You mentioned taking it personally when someone slams what you like. Well guess what- we restorer types hear that s--t constantly from the rodders. When I bought my last 64 Starfire, the first cruise night it hit, the first thing I heard from one of the rodders was "You gonna paint that car ain'tcha? That color bites. Needs some rubber and wheels too." Granted he's one of the more obnoxious ones and would be an ass in any hobby he took up, but that hit me wrong and I wasn't near as nice to him as I was to you. So if you want us to live and let live, it's gotta work two ways.

Deal?

[R W Burgess]

1937hd45! Lets see, Bob. If I divide that speed by 2 and multiply by 8, I should get 510.64 MPH. So, that's how fast my wife's Caprice oughta go. She told me it was fast. I mean, come on, a small block chevy should be more efficient than some old "Flathead". Wayne

[R W Burgess]

Wait a minute, You said Stanley Bros. You mean steam, everybody knows they'd never cut the mustard, RIGHT!. W.

[Guest]

Anybody want to make bets on how long this thread keeps going? 75 post? 100 post? How long <span style="font-style: italic">can</span> a dead horse be beat until it's gone completely to dust?

[Guest Skyking]

Apparently this is one topic that can't be won either way.......

[Dave@Moon]

No Skyking, I don't think so. While you cannot rearrange people's aethetics and match them to yours, you can (and as a club, we [color:\\"red\\"] <span style="font-style: italic">must</span> ) do what needs to be done to counteract the absurd attitudes that hot rodders are susceptable to.

For instance, is there a 300SL or XK150 owner out there who wants to correct Mr. "Annonymous's" attitude toward <span style="font-style: italic">slow</span> six cylinder drivetrains?

That is why I was so happy to see Tinindian's thread ( http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/showflat....;o=&fpart=1 ). I think that the quicker people within the AACA adopt his take on the situation, the sooner we'll see all people out there respect a perfect Terraplane or stovebolt Chevy for what it is.

[Guest]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> to counteract the absurd attitudes that hot rodders are susceptable to.

</div></div>

Whew! Dave, are you on a roll or what? Now all you need is a shiny suit of armor and a white horse to ride in on, but make sure the <span style="font-style: italic">horse</span> hasn't been chopped and channeled.

[Brassbus]

What do you expect. Beating dead horses is what Dave@Moon does for a living! Gotta love liberals...they hammer and hammer until everyone thinks, acts, and feels the same way as they do. Endearing, isn't it?

[Guest]

Yeah! Are we real <span style="font-style: italic">sure</span> that Dave @moon is not really Alan @colmes?

[1937hd45]

Look at the bright side, this Forum is LIMITED to AUTOMOTIVE topics!

[Dave@Moon]

It benefits the antique car hobby when antique cars are driven and more visible. Said antiques are well capable of being driven in a reasonable and safe manner. It is fun to do so. Cutting up restored and HPOF cars to make street rod is a waste.

These are not "liberal" concepts, in fact they're quite conservative in scope and practice. Neither are the opposing points of view "liberal", they're just self-absorbed.

It's sad when self-absorption progresses to the point where challenging thoughts and concepts have to be derided as something negative (to say nothing of using the term "liberal" as a negative, but then maybe some of us went to college and got <span style="font-style: italic">"conservative arts"</span> degrees).

[color:\\"blue\\"] And I'm the <span style="font-style: italic">minority</span> view on those subjects? [color:\\"red\\"] HERE?

Amazing.

[Guest Skyking]

Dave, I just purchased my old 57 Metropolitan back today after 12 years. I can't wait to get it back in shape like it was in 57. A few already told me to tub it & throw a small block in it. I couldn't think of doing that to this car. I plan on using it as a daily driver..........

[Guest]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Neither are the opposing points of view "liberal", they're just self-absorbed. </div></div>

So, Dave, since <span style="font-style: italic">your</span> view is in opposition of <span style="font-style: italic">my</span> view, doesn't that mean your points are <span style="font-style: italic">self-absorbed</span> by your <span style="font-style: italic">own</span> definition? You, my friend, are a spin meister. It seems as though that you have perfected the art of twisting the talking points to support your own agenda. How sad, and thank GOD, how RARE on this DF. If you cannot grasp the reason for people thinking you are a liberal, well read this post <span style="font-style: italic">thoroughly</span>.

[Guest]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> While you cannot rearrange people's aethetics and match them to yours, you can (and as a club, we must ) do what needs to be done to counteract the absurd attitudes that hot rodders are susceptable to.

</div></div>

I think I heard a Greenpeace member say something similar to that once on TV, or maybe it was a PETA member, I do remember they were a liberal though.

[Guest]

HO HO HO HO HO! Santa Clause has come to town! I did a little searching, and HERE YOU GO DAVE. You want to know why everybody <span style="font-style: italic">knows</span> your a LIBERAL? Read it and WEAP:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> There are a lot of other "facts" that you weren't learn if you limit your knowledge intake to what Mr. Limbaugh and his buddies at Fox News want you to hear. </div></div>

Don't believe the hype! Got that right! BUSTED!!!

[Guest]

Just having a little fun with you, Dave, I enjoy a good debate. I have nothing against liberals, nor am I seriously accusing you of being one. I could care less about your political leanings. But, I do like a chopped Merc! If I had money, tell you what i'd do!

[Guest]

Buy an identitiy?

[Dave@Moon]

Of course you could buy one and leave it behind, like I just did!!

[Brassbus]

Come on, Dave. You admitted right here a long time ago what your politics are. I didn't say that your concepts on this thread are liberal. I said that your hammering away on this topic was typically liberal. Some of us just [color:\\"red\\"] disagree with you, and you can't stand it!

I know! Why don't you organize a sit down strike at the next Hot Rod Nationals! You could make up signs saying "Don't believe the hype!", and chain yourself to the bumper of a chopped Willys coupe, while chanting "No originality, no peace!" It would be groovy! You could stay up until the wee hours holding hands, singing sensitive and reflective songs like "Puff The Magic Wagon", and "Give Pierce Arrows A Chance". You know, bring it to the people! Educate them about this genocide that is being perpetrated against innocent and oppressed automobiles everywhere, right before our eyes! Show them that cars have rights, too, and that this injustice must stop, <span style="font-weight: bold">NOW</span> !

[Guest]

That's funny. I did a 140 miles this past Saturday in a 1928 DB with a crappy six cylinder engine and six volt electrical system. The roads were mixed with two lane, four lane, and interstate driving. I had no problems and had a great day. I ran from 35-55 mph all day. Oh and BTW I own a Stanley also. It was DRIVEN on 90 mile tour last month. Only took two water stops and ran perfectly. And it doesn't use coal. Try gasoline and diesel fuel.

Also forgot to mention. I don't live in the country. I live very close to a large metropolitan area.

Would you care to insult any more individuals who choose to drive their cars???

ASW

[1937hd45]

ASW, We have no way of knowing which "Anonymous" you were replying to. The Stanley is a fine car, and steam car guys are in a league all their own, far more mechanical than other "antique" car guys. What has most DF members annoied is the the "Self Anointed" telling us how to enjoy our cars. If you have hydraulic rear brakes on your Stanley, or a larger boiler fine. If it was built from bits and pieces that is fine with me, if it is one of the few "original" Stanley Steamers that is even better. The point is that we all enjoy our cars for reasons that make us, the current owners happy.

[Guest]

Sorry I wasn't specific. The threads don't follow the way I thought they should. I was replying the individual who was calling those of use who drive our cars in modern traffic crazy. It was apparently a much earlier post.

Also my Stanley is a 1917 and it was always a car, however, that is not always true of a lot of the earlier Stanley's but they are fun to drive also. We have converted the brakes on our car to hydraulic but we did drive it a lot miles prior to the conversion.

I don't have any problem with some enhancements for safety's sake but a wholesale chassis swap to a modern drivetrain seems silly to me. Old cars never drove like our modern iron. To me part of the deal is the challenge of maintaining them and driving them as they were meant to be driven. When I want air and power steering I get in my 96 T Bird.

BTW I am with Dave Moon on this topic. Lets get the old iron and tour!

ASW

[Guest]

The old car restoration is no longer.We have got at least 14 pre war cars,all original,or restored as .im only 40, and will not hack a car'. not even a 90

[Guest]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I don't have any problem with some enhancements for safety's sake </div></div>

Well, you can forget about warming up to Dave @moon then, it's either BONE STOCK or SCRAP IRON in his world. Anyway, I thought your bone stock fluff wads were supposed to do just fine on the open road. WHATS THIS about ENHANCEMENTS FOR SAFETY SAKE? hhhHHmmMM? That's NOT ORIGINAL!

[Guest]

The first mirror installed on a car was for safety. And at the turn of the century it was an accessory. Ditto for windshield wipers.

I don't see your point. You obviously don't appreciate old cars as they were built so what's is your beef. If you think you are going to convert everyone to loving highly modifed cars then you need to think again. And BTW if you are just playing devil's advocate nice try but it won't work.

Also the name calling is cute but I have been called worse. Didn't your momma teach you any manners?

ASW

[Dave@Moon]

I am <span style="font-style: italic">not</span> going to be able to live up this infatuated annonymous admirer's self-generated image of me.

If you'd spent as much time researching my automotive posts as you think you did with the political ones, you'd find out that since the beginning I've been the guy on this forum getting flack for advocating too much in updating saftey in our antiques. But then, as usual, it's easier to debate a construction than it is a reality.

I hope there are people out there getting the real message of this and some of the other threads on this subject instead of presuming to already know it all.

Drive your car more, expose more people to the antique side of our hobby, and show them how wrong this clown is.